Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

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Rod C
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Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:07 pm

In another post I asked where to find the AcornSSL module needed for !FTPc. Having installed the module, the FTPc program was able to run but the connection failed and the log showed that the error is in resolving the host name.

I then downloaded System Resources (https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/common) and ran the !SysMerge program which seemed to go smoothly but !FTPc still doesn't make a connection.

I'm pretty sure I will need to add Internet functionality and possibly have to configure various things before I can use FTP.

The reason I need advice here is because my understanding of RiscOS is like a few breadcrumbs from the table of a feast and I don't want to mess up my RiscPC which (apart from failed CMOS) is working quite nicely. I'm hoping to use FTP to get the AUN Level 4 disc images off the RPC and onto my laptop so I can upload them to the forum. Looking further ahead I want to set up networking between my two RiscPCs and integrate my Econet when I get my Econet podule from IanS.

I've downloaded the Nightly Beta HardDisc4 archive (https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/common) and see that there is a folder of Internet stuff in !Boot. I also got the Uniboot2 archive (https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/UniBoot) but haven't done anything with either of these in case I get out of my depth.

What's the best approach?

BTW I'm using Risc OS 3.50

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8271
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by 8271 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 pm

Hi Rod.

I suppose the first question is what network card do you have in the RPC? Some have drivers already on rom and some don't and need them soft loading. By far the easiest approach is to use the universal boot sequence which configures networking using the graphical interface; this would allow you to set up the IP address, gateways and DNS etc. Once this is working and you can ping different machines and the internet then you should be able to run the FTP client.

The boot sequence should also allow you to run econet & ethernet simultaneously (It autodetects IanS's econet podule) so you can map routes (if you are running Level4 on both ethernet & econet).

Happy to help as I have the same running on my home acorn network (and then some!)

Currently at :
Econet : 2 x BBC B, 3 x BBC Master, 1 x A4000, A310, A7000 (Running Level 4, ShareFS and Spooler)
Ethernet : RiscPC, RiscPC-SA, Rasp-PI, (Access & AUN)
Serial computer hoarder & econetophile
2 x BBC-B, 4 x Master128, Master Viglen, Master Domesday, A310, A4, A5000, RiscPC700 Level 4 Server, RPC_SA233 & RPC_SA200, RiscOS_Pi, Econet & Ethernet

richw
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by richw » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm

I think that you need to either use the traditional Acorn UniBoot, as was back in the day. You can add a few newer bits, such as AcornSSL.

Or you can go the ROOL way. The RISC OS 5 disc image, amazingly, supports machines right back to OS 3.1, so you can use their HardDisc4 and PlingSystem instead of all the Acorn-era stuff. I am not saying it is a good idea, as it tends to eat RAM, but it will provide AcornSSL.

Another idea... Can you comment-out the AcornSSL requirement in the !Run file? Maybe FTPc will work without it, assuming you have a plain FTP server?

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by sirbod » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:40 pm

Rod C wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:07 pm
the FTPc program was able to run but the connection failed and the log showed that the error is in resolving the host name.
Can you resolve a host at the command line via nslookup. If not, you need to configure the name servers in !Internet.

If you're using the DHCP module for an IP, it doesn't always configure the DNS servers, so you might need to switch to static.

Rod C
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Hi and thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, I had already installed the AcornSSL module and this allowed me to use FTPc but without getting a connection to the FTP server.
8271 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 pm
I suppose the first question is what network card do you have in the RPC?
It's an i-cubed EtherLan 600 which has worked successfully already when I shared HardDisc4 to my other RiscPC. *EHInfo shows the 10BaseT connection is good.
sirbod wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:40 pm
Can you resolve a host at the command line via nslookup. If not, you need to configure the name servers in !Internet.
As yet I don't have !Internet in my Boot folder and I'm pretty sure I don't have nslookup.
sirbod wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:40 pm
If you're using the DHCP module for an IP, it doesn't always configure the DNS servers, so you might need to switch to static.
I think I need to deal with the whole setup before I get to this.
richw wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm
I think that you need to either use the traditional Acorn UniBoot, as was back in the day. You can add a few newer bits, such as AcornSSL.

Or you can go the ROOL way. The RISC OS 5 disc image, amazingly, supports machines right back to OS 3.1, so you can use their HardDisc4 and PlingSystem instead of all the Acorn-era stuff. I am not saying it is a good idea, as it tends to eat RAM, but it will provide AcornSSL.
The ROOL way sounds simpler and RAM probably won't be an issue as the machine has 64MB. Regarding SSL, it's in place and I can can turn the requirement off at my Windows ftp server if needed.

8271 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 pm
By far the easiest approach is to use the universal boot sequence which configures networking using the graphical interface; this would allow you to set up the IP address, gateways and DNS etc. Once this is working and you can ping different machines and the internet then you should be able to run the FTP client.

The boot sequence should also allow you to run econet & ethernet simultaneously (It autodetects IanS's econet podule) so you can map routes (if you are running Level4 on both ethernet & econet).

Happy to help as I have the same running on my home acorn network (and then some!)
So, I think I'll take the universal boot sequence approach and thanks for the offer of help. =D> I'm sure I'll need it! :lol:

Already, I'm a bit confused.

What happens to my existing !Boot setup when I install a new boot sequence package? Are they merged or is the old one deleted or perhaps still there but redundant? I think I get how System merge would work but what about all the other stuff in !Boot?

I downloaded UniBoot2 from Retrokit - is this what we're talking about, or the boot sequence in the ROOL HardDisc4 archive?

Can I just take the !Boot folder from ROOL HardDisc4 archive and put it on my hard disc?

Finally, is any of this dependent on there being a functional CMOS? I hope to fix this but preferably later.

So many questions... :roll:

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by philpem » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:11 pm

It sounds like you've got a pretty old !Boot structure there. If you don't have !Internet, then you don't have the TCP/IP Stack -- which means it probably only supports Access+ / AUN networking.

If the RO5 HardDisc4 / Uniboot (from ROOL) works for you, that's the one to go for. It'll include all the 32-bit libraries and a working TCP/IP stack. I don't know how well it works on RO3/RO4 as I've never tried. You can get it from https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/common

The RISC OS 4 Installer includes Uniboot, but I can't remember if it's RO3/RO4 compatible or needs RO4. It also includes the TCP/IP stack, though I can't remember if it includes AcornSSL. You can get it from http://www.riscos.com/ftp_space/400/index.htm

The option of last resort would be the "J233" Uniboot from https://www.4corn.co.uk/aview.php?sPath ... 233distrib
J233 was the last RISC PC version sold and came with the most recent (under Acorn) Uniboot, Acorn Browse, Java and Shockwave, and a ready-to-go TCP/IP stack. Largely you just have to set the IP address, netmask and DNS servers and it'll work fine. I don't think it supports DHCP. You'll have to butcher it horribly to run more recent apps, and honestly it's probably not worth the bother.

If I remember rightly, Retrokit's Uniboot2 is a backport of Uniboot for RISC OS 3.1 -- I may be wrong about that, but I've mostly used it on RO3.1 machines (primarily ARM250 based A3000/A4000s, the poor 8MHz ARM2 A3000 is a bit slow for it)


Here's my way of installing a new !Boot structure -- it's a bit involved.
  • Start SparkFS or SparkPlug and open the archive containing !Boot -- or for the RO4 !Boot, start the installer.
  • Rename HardDisc4.$.!Boot to e.g. "ZZ!Boot" to remove its 'application' status.
  • Copy the !Boot from the archive to HardDisc4.
  • Reboot the machine
  • Double click !Boot. Open "System" (may be System Merge)
  • Open the "ZZ!Boot" directory, then open "Resources". Drag !System onto the "System Merge" icon.
  • Move across anything else you need from !Boot.Resources, !Boot.Choices, etc. -- this mainly applies if you have Zap, StrongED or similar installed.
  • Move the "ZZ!Boot" directory to a convenient place on the hard disc. Try all your applications and make sure they work.
  • If you have Impression installed, look out for a file called "CMYKPal" somewhere in ZZ!Boot. Copy it to the same place you found it, but under the new !Boot.
Keep your old Boot structure until you're satisfied everything is working. If you have ArcFS or SparkFS, you can compress it to save space.

Once you've finished, follow the guide on riscos.org to set up the TCP/IP stack: http://www.riscos.org/networking/riscos.html

None of this should be dependent on a functioning CMOS, though you might have to delete-power-on to boot the machine... if you do, remember that RISC PCs default to booting from the first hard drive on the internal IDE -- you may have to reconfigure if that's not the case in your setup. Just stick to using the back-panel reset button until you fix the CMOS :)

Cheers
Phil.

Rod C
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm

philpem wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:11 pm
Here's my way of installing a new !Boot structure -- it's a bit involved.
Hi Phil
Thanks for your detailed post. Yes, my !Boot probably belongs in a museum. I decided to install !Boot from the ROOL HardDisc4 stable version rather than the Nightly Beta version I downloaded a few days ago.

I followed the process you outlined to install the new !Boot (copied it from the unzipped archive) then merged the ROOL PlingSystem with it following the instructions included in that package.

I do have "Impression" and luckily found the CMYKPal file in the old !Boot and copied that over.

To get the CD drive mounted I had to manually copy over the required files from Choices.Boot.PreDesk and the CD came up when I rebooted.

I started working through the Network configuration and found "Access" greyed out but "Internet" settings are accessible. I didn't have all the details to finish this configuration and shut down the computer for the rest of the day. I'm sure I recall that at this stage everything was working fine...

When I restarted this evening I found some strange issues with the display of the icon bar and desktop windows. As you can see, there's no acorn icon on the Task menu and windows are drawn without the scroll bar and resize/close controls. The side bar area actually grabs whatever was drawn on the screen behind it and takes that along when the window is dragged. The scroll and resize controls work, you just have to remember where they should be!
RiscPC Desktop.jpg
I've just noticed, too that the CD drive has disappeared again. That's strange.

Perhaps some files have gone missing. I did have to <Skip> a few "Not found" items when copying over the !Boot from the HardDisc4 archive. It must have seen the files there but couldn't read them I guess. The one I thought might be important is the Internet.files.CertData one. The themes are not relevant for me?

Code: Select all

!Boot.Resources.!Internet.files.CertData not found

!ThemeDefs.Themes.Iyonix.Sprites not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Iyonix.Sprites11 not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Iyonix.Sprites22 not found

!ThemeDefs.Themes.Morris4.Sprites22 not found

!ThemeDefs.Themes.Raspberry.Sprites not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Raspberry.Sprites11 not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Raspberry.Sprites22 not found


!ThemeDefs.Themes.Sovereign.Sprites not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Sovereign.Sprites11 not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Sovereign.Sprites22 not found

!ThemeDefs.Themes.Visula.Sprites not found
!ThemeDefs.Themes.Sovereign.Sprites22 not found


The boot process prior to loading the desktop includes the following messages:

Code: Select all

Repeat: File "System: Modules.Network.Share+" not found.
Repeat: SWI &4258B not known
Another strange thing is that when I configure the monitor settings and click <Set> the following message is displayed twice then the settings are correctly applied:

Code: Select all

Message from Configure
"Filing system ADFS: must be given a filename"
I can't do any more tonight but I think I'll have to resolve the display issues before getting on with the network config.

philpem
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by philpem » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:43 pm

Rod C wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm
Thanks for your detailed post. Yes, my !Boot probably belongs in a museum. I decided to install !Boot from the ROOL HardDisc4 stable version rather than the Nightly Beta version I downloaded a few days ago.
The Stable version is usually the safe bet!
Rod C wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm
I followed the process you outlined to install the new !Boot (copied it from the unzipped archive) then merged the ROOL PlingSystem with it following the instructions included in that package.
You shouldn't have had to merge !System from the ROOL archive if you installed from the HardDisc4 one... that should have just worked.

Rod C wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm
I started working through the Network configuration and found "Access" greyed out but "Internet" settings are accessible. I didn't have all the details to finish this configuration and shut down the computer for the rest of the day. I'm sure I recall that at this stage everything was working fine...

When I restarted this evening I found some strange issues with the display of the icon bar and desktop windows. As you can see, there's no acorn icon on the Task menu and windows are drawn without the scroll bar and resize/close controls. The side bar area actually grabs whatever was drawn on the screen behind it and takes that along when the window is dragged. The scroll and resize controls work, you just have to remember where they should be!
RiscPC Desktop.jpg
I've just noticed, too that the CD drive has disappeared again. That's strange.
Did you Delete-power-on when you restarted?

If not, the CMOS may contain a load of rubbish -- like some of the Desktop modules being *Unplugged for instance.
Rod C wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm
Perhaps some files have gone missing. I did have to <Skip> a few "Not found" items when copying over the !Boot from the HardDisc4 archive. It must have seen the files there but couldn't read them I guess. The one I thought might be important is the Internet.files.CertData one. The themes are not relevant for me?
Rod C wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:06 pm
The boot process prior to loading the desktop includes the following messages:

Code: Select all

Repeat: File "System: Modules.Network.Share+" not found.
Repeat: SWI &4258B not known
Another strange thing is that when I configure the monitor settings and click <Set> the following message is displayed twice then the settings are correctly applied:

Code: Select all

Message from Configure
"Filing system ADFS: must be given a filename"
I can't do any more tonight but I think I'll have to resolve the display issues before getting on with the network config.
I'm starting to be a little suspicious that the ROOL !Boot might not support RO3.x...

Delete the ROOL !Boot (make sure to keep a copy of CMYKPal!) -- you may need to middle-click -> "File !Boot" -> Access -> More -> Unlocked -> OK.

Grab the J233 one I linked (because I know that works!) and merge the ROOL PlingSystem.

Reboot. Open !Boot, configure CD drives to 1 to get your CDROM back.

That should get you a working Acorn-style !Boot suitable for RO3.x, albeit with a fairly old TCP/IP stack. Provided you don't need SSL, it should work fine.

Cheers,
Phil.

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by paintings » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:18 pm

For the record, I've had problems using the Acorn 3.70/3.71 disc images on 3.5/3.6 - you don't get a full Universal Boot, only the 3.7 components. You'll need to find a full Universal Boot from somewhere: I've seen copies on Acorn User CD8 and the May 1998 Acorn Developer CD. Alternatively, it's available online at http://www.4corn.co.uk/archive/acornftp ... niboot.zip

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by philpem » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:07 pm

paintings wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:18 pm
For the record, I've had problems using the Acorn 3.70/3.71 disc images on 3.5/3.6 - you don't get a full Universal Boot, only the 3.7 components. You'll need to find a full Universal Boot from somewhere: I've seen copies on Acorn User CD8 and the May 1998 Acorn Developer CD. Alternatively, it's available online at http://www.4corn.co.uk/archive/acornftp ... niboot.zip
Ahh, I didn't think those included the Internet stack, but the one you linked clearly does. That should definitely work!

(and I'm going to save that link for future use...)

Cheers
Phil

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:51 am

philpem wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:43 pm
You shouldn't have had to merge !System from the ROOL archive if you installed from the HardDisc4 one... that should have just worked.
This note on the ROOL downloads page is pretty clear:

"RISC OS 5.24 stable disc image, including boot sequence and applications.
See press release for more information.
The 'System resources' (above) are also required for users with pre-RISC OS 5 machines."

philpem wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:43 pm
Did you Delete-power-on when you restarted?
Yes, without the CMOS it just goes to the Supervisor and no keyboard.
philpem wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:43 pm
I'm starting to be a little suspicious that the ROOL !Boot might not support RO3.x...
That's what I've been thinking too!

After posting last night I decided to have another look at the files that didn't copy from !Boot in HardDisc4 archive. It turned out to be no problem copying them into the new !Boot manually. Perhaps I should have allocated memory differently before doing the original copy. When I restarted the machine the same problems remained.
paintings wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:18 pm
You'll need to find a full Universal Boot from somewhere: I've seen copies on Acorn User CD8 and the May 1998 Acorn Developer CD. Alternatively, it's available online at http://www.4corn.co.uk/archive/acornftp ... niboot.zip
Thanks for that. I think that will be my next attempt. I'll have to get the CD drive back first, though! First I'll restore my old !Boot and hope that things go back to how they were.
.
.
.

OK that worked. Nice to see things working again and I've got the Acorn icon back, too!

Thanks for helping me along the way with this. As frustrating as it is when things go wrong it's a great way to learn!

Ready for the next attempt...
Rod

Rod C
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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:01 pm

The RiscPC is now working fine with the Acorn Universal Boot installed. I've configured the network settings but still can't use FTPc to get to my Win7 notebook. #-o

After I tracked down the IP details of my home network I decided it might be easier to go through my Telstra Gateway. The notebook is on wireless and I connected the RiscPCs ethernet cable to the Gateway device. I could then ping the notebook from the RPC and also ping the RPC from the notebook, so the network connection is good.

Using FTPc the connection window says not connected but the FTPc log says that the host was resolved and is connected. This is a bit strange and I'm wondering if it means that the connection was made but the FTP service isn't accessible.

I noticed in the FTPc menu there is a link to ftp.acornusers.org and when I hit that my eyes boggled as the site opened :shock: up and I could navigate around and download files successfully. 8)

As for getting files from the RPC onto my notebook I suspect that I have to configure something differently on the notebook. The FTP site I set up (just for this purpose) looks like it should work and I turned off the Windows firewall for local connections (but not public). I spent a lot of time exploring the depths of connection rules and so on but can't seem to put it all together. I did make a connection rule to take any restrictions off the IP address of the RPC but I'm not even sure if that rule is used when the firewall is off.

I'm also not sure if "Path" in the FTPc connection window refers to the name (HPZBookFTP) or physical location (G:\FTP) of my FTP site
At this stage it would be great if anybody has suggestions.

Rod

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by dangardner » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:27 pm

What FTP server software are you using on the Win7 machine? The path on the client will be relative to the root directory configured for your FTP server, so "/" on the client will map to "G:\FTP" on your server.

A few suggestions:
  • Test the Win7 FTP server locally using an FTP client on the same machine.
  • If you have the option in FTPc, try toggling passive (PASV) mode FTP. This often helps with firewalls etc. that are unaware of the FTP protocol.
  • Boot from a Linux live USB stick, mount your Windows filesystem somewhere and run a Linux FTP server like vsftpd/proftpd/etc.

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Re: Updating RiscPC System for Networking - Need Advice

Post by Rod C » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:27 am

dangardner wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:27 pm
What FTP server software are you using on the Win7 machine? The path on the client will be relative to the root directory configured for your FTP server, so "/" on the client will map to "G:\FTP" on your server.
Thanks for your advice! I'm using Windows Internet Information Services (IIS) Manager. There are so many configuration and security options it was driving me crazy. #-o

Finally I found the problem. The site bindings were only set to the external IP address. Once I added the local network 10 dot address to the bindings everything fell into place.

I logged in with FTPc using the path "/" as you suggested and BINGO it worked. I downloaded a message and a software archive I had put in the FTP folder and then uploaded the files I wanted to get off the RiscPC . Oh Joy!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rod

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