Pascal Roms

bbc/electron apps, languages, utils, educational progs, demos + more
johncove
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:49 pm

Thanks for your help, Martin. How would I make all-zeros 16k images please?

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:52 pm

I can successfully read all EPROMs I have tried to burn to and they all show $FF from 0 through to 3FF0. I have a UV eraser, so could try and erase and start again but it is odd I have the exact same burning issue across 6x EPROMs.

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:58 pm

Am I using the correct EPROMs? I have AM27128A 12.5V but are these going to burn as expected, or do I need AM27C256-200DC 27C256 AM27C256 UV EPROM *256K* DIP28 IC?

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:16 pm

I wanted to test the ROM image I read from an existing BBC Micro ROM I have from my system, so I read this with the programmer (same settings and selected EPROM) and downloaded a Windows based emulator called BeebEm. I loaded up the ROM file I read using my burner, and it does seem to work as an image (although I am unsure how to run that ROM) - just a FYI, as I wanted to make sure the image I was burning was good.

The original EPROM I read from my BBC Master system is now mounted as a file in an emulator, and shown in the attachment as:-

ROM 3 Pascal 03.
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2020-03-05_21h12_19.jpg

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:04 pm

Erase an eprom to blank, i.e. 16k of FF's, and then try programming the attached 16k zeroes image.

16kzeroes.rom
(16 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

( btw - 27128's are fine for a Beeb etc. and as long as the physical devices are as you say and do use a 12.5v Vpp then they should program. I have seen folk experience intermittent issues where devices are mis-identified and actually require 21v but receive 12.5v. That's not a suggestion to try, just an anecdotal example of possible problems.)

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:30 pm

Thank you Martin. The EPROM was blanked using a UV eraser (checked a read before and confirmed 16k of $FF) - see attachment - then I burnt the ROM file you kindly provided and you can see the EPROM stops burning (as before) at $251. I wonder why the burning process is failing at that address each and every time (on 6x AM27128A 12.5V) EPROMs? So, reading is okay, writing is not - weird?
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2020-03-05_22h26_37.jpg
2020-03-05_22h27_13.jpg

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:08 pm

Have you ever used your programmer for ‘retro’ devices before? You say the settings are correct but apart from ‘Enable Beep’, I personally don’t recognise any... :) (I principally use a Dataman S4)

Sometimes, older devices need more programming current than modern USB programmers can supply and I notice that ‘Limit Current’ is checked - are you sure the latter is correct and also that you don’t need to use an external PSU which is sometimes the case with modern programmers versus older devices.... :-k

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:37 pm

Yes, I use the same burner to burn Atari ST TOS ROMS without any problems at all.

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:09 am

Then I’d say that one can only reasonably conclude that your roms are faulty (or at least sub-standard) since the zeroes image check isolates us from any Beeb-related influence.

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:00 pm

OK, thank you :) What EPROMs would you suggest I buy to burn these images please?

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:30 pm

Any 27128 devices should be fine to be honest, I'm still not sure what's gone awry with yours but somehow you've been unlucky, assuming it isn't yet down to a curious artefact of your programmer. Something like these reclaimed ones are always good value (note often a 12v/21v Vpp mix) - I can't see any uk ones at the moment other than ones or twos which can be a little pricey but Germany needn't be a worry other than a slightly longer delivery time. You could try Mark Haysman at Retroclinic or perhaps someone on here might shout up if they have any spares for sale.

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:52 pm

Thanks :) I bought those very EPROMs. I'll let you know how I get on for the benefit of info for this post / topic.

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:59 pm

Hi there,

So, those EPROMs arrived and I get exactly the same result.

Maybe the programmer (even though the manual says these EPROMs are supported) will not write for some reason. I am not sure why the EPROM programmer does work and burn up to a point, and that point being $251 - is this a magic number somehow?

If I were to buy an alternative EPROM programmer, which would you recommend other than the one you use (too expensive for me as this is only a sideline).

Thanks for your continued help.

Cheers.

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:50 pm

Just done some Googling and it seems that your experience is not uncommon with that unit when programming older devices. It sounds perhaps as if the delay allocated to the burning of each cell is too short in the software and then, due to a cumulative algorithmic reduction, by location $251 the time allocated is just too short.
Someone anecdotally suggests editing the config file to increase the delay but I don’t know if you feel comfortable looking at that? You’d be looking for some times, probably in milliseconds, and if you can find such config data for the package (and then specifically for all the 27128’s) you could post it here and we can suggest changes.

Other than that, I’d probably have to defer to others for alternative PC (retro device) programmer recommendations. I could maybe at a push sell you a Beeb programmer, I’m bound to have some basic ones in the Beeb vaults, but you might be better sticking with a PC-based one.

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:11 am

In the top3000 installation area of the PC, can you find a text file that has content similar to the below.....?

Code: Select all

#EPROM-AMD
EPR AMD Am2716-12.7V,P27 1
EPR AMD Am2716-21V ,P27 2
EPR AMD Am2716-25V ,P27 3
EPR AMD Am2732-12.7V,P27 4
EPR AMD Am2732-21V ,P27 5
EPR AMD Am2732-25V ,P27 6
EPR AMD Am2764-21V ,P27 8
EPR AMD Am2764A-12.5V,P27 7
EPR AMD Am27C64-12.5V,P27 7
EPR AMD Am2128-21V ,P27 11
EPR AMD Am27128A-12.5V ,P27 10
EPR AMD Am27C128-12.7V,P27 10
EPR AMD Am27256HV-21V ,P27 13
EPR AMD Am27C256-12.75V ,P27 13
EPR AMD Am27C256P......... etc.
If you can find such a file, save a backup somewhere and then edit whichever lines equate to a device you’re trying to program (i.e. the initial text of the entry will I think be in your runtime selection choices) by adding ,vcc=6250 for cmos (12.5v Vpp) devices or ,vcc=6000 for nmos (21v Vpp) devices.

e.g. this line....

EPR AMD Am27128A-12.5V ,P27 10

would become....

EPR AMD Am27128A-12.5V ,P27 10,vcc=6250

Then re-save to the working location (where you found it) and try programming a device. This is based on a theory that the device Vcc needs to be increased a little during programming. Just try it for one erased chip and if it doesn’t work, we’ll maybe think about the cell delays instead.

Only any good of course if you can find a similar text file and that it is as per the above format for the top3000. (I’m kind of reading between many tenuous lines here.... :) )

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:16 pm

Thank you very much for your help on this, very, very much appreciated.

I have entered new config lines for 12.5V and 21V as below and can select these from the programmer before writing:-

EPR Intel D27128-12.5V ,P27 10, vcc=6250
EPR Intel D27128-21V ,P27 10, vcc=6000

I tried both with no success, unfortunately.

I put the Delay down to 1mS and 2mS, without any further success.

Weirdly, the programmer goes through the visual motions of burning the EPROM with a % indicator, but when I read the EPROM following this process, the chip is as it was before the burn ($FF throughout). The "Ready" green LED flashes throughout the programming process too, as it would if it were actually writing, so this is even stranger.

I did a compare on the chip and the ROM bin file following the write process and get an error, ofc, at the first bit.

I ordered one of these yesterday, after finding a guide on the web. I wasn't sure what else to do at that time, before receiving your helpful replies.

https://mansfield-devine.com/speculatri ... bbc-micro/

In the meantime, waiting for this device to arrive, can you think of anything else I could try please? :)

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:11 pm

You say you "...put the delay down..." but if it is a delay issue, then it will actually need to be going up. Try a much bigger figure, this will slow down the burn but maybe give us a clue.... :-k

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by BeebMaster » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:46 pm

Whilst waiting, you can load the Pascal ROM image into sideways RAM in your Master and use it from there:

*SRLOAD <filename> 8000 <bank> Q

where <bank> is 4, 5, 6 or 7 which is where the Master's sideways RAM banks are mapped. Q is optional meaning Quicker, and overwrites user RAM with the ROM image file which loads faster than using the non-destructive filing system buffering method without Q.

Depending on the storage facilities you have you could make an autoboot to do this automatically, or whenever you want to start a Pascal (or any other language or utility ROM) session.

I saw the sad line "Acorn ANFS 4.25 unplugged", but I think that's only in the emulator. If you do have Econet then you can create users on the file server which set up a particular environment depending upon as whom on which you log (sorry - only way to end that sentence without a preposition).

So you could have *I AM PASCAL which automatically loads your Pascal ROM into sideways RAM, and puts you in your directory where Pascal work is stored, for example. In my own case, on my Econet file server I have the facility to do *I AM ANFS418 and *I AM BASIC4 when I want those ROMs installed on a BBC B.
Image

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:59 am

MartinB wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:11 pm
You say you "...put the delay down..." but if it is a delay issue, then it will actually need to be going up. Try a much bigger figure, this will slow down the burn but maybe give us a clue.... :-k
I put the figure up to 20mS but the same problem. Wow, I didn't expect this to be so hard :(

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:03 am

BeebMaster wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:46 pm
Whilst waiting, you can load the Pascal ROM image into sideways RAM in your Master and use it from there:

*SRLOAD <filename> 8000 <bank> Q

where <bank> is 4, 5, 6 or 7 which is where the Master's sideways RAM banks are mapped. Q is optional meaning Quicker, and overwrites user RAM with the ROM image file which loads faster than using the non-destructive filing system buffering method without Q.

Depending on the storage facilities you have you could make an autoboot to do this automatically, or whenever you want to start a Pascal (or any other language or utility ROM) session.

I saw the sad line "Acorn ANFS 4.25 unplugged", but I think that's only in the emulator. If you do have Econet then you can create users on the file server which set up a particular environment depending upon as whom on which you log (sorry - only way to end that sentence without a preposition).

So you could have *I AM PASCAL which automatically loads your Pascal ROM into sideways RAM, and puts you in your directory where Pascal work is stored, for example. In my own case, on my Econet file server I have the facility to do *I AM ANFS418 and *I AM BASIC4 when I want those ROMs installed on a BBC B.
Thank you very much, I got this working perfect but would like to burn the eproms in the long run :) Thanks!

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MartinB
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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by MartinB » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:38 pm

Wow, I didn't expect this to be so hard :(
It isn't normally :)

Quite simply, all your difficulty is down to your top3000 not being fit for purpose in the context of progamming legacy devices and as I alluded to previously, you are clearly not alone.

I can program these and similar devices in a matter of seconds with my S4, as can many other forum members with their own variety of programmers, so don't be disheartened, you are simply a victim of shoddy kit (or perhaps at best, kit that is over-ambitious in terms of it's legacy device capabilities). Hopefully your new programmer will be up to the job but again, I have no personal experience of that model so let's hope the recommendations come good.

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Re: Pascal Roms

Post by johncove » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:11 pm

Well, that programmer arrived and worked first time, no messing around. So, lesson is to not use the TOP3000 Universal Programmer! The XGHecu TL866II Plus works a treat!!

Thank you all for your help :)

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