Movie Maker Slippery Slug

discussion of beeb/electron applications, languages, utils and educational s/w
User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:55 am

Yes, it's possible.

e.g. if you use EXMON II, type P 8000, then try and find the right ROM using ! <slot> e.g. in my beeb-em configuration I've put them in slots B and C, so I do ! B (for one) or ! C (for the other).

Then you can use D 8000 to start disassembly.

ROMs have a certain header, though, so you need to work through that layout first.

It's possible to reverse engineer (32K doesn't sound like much) but ... time-consuming. :shock:

My initial suggestion was ripping through looking for key-stroke detection, but given that it sounds like there could be quite a combination ... maybe that's not going to work.

Finding the manual definitely the best option ... [-o< [-o<

But feels like you are so close to cracking it ... [-o<

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:23 pm

Yes almost there. Maybe there is a hypnotist on this forum who can extract the command from my memory going back 30 years. I wish I could remember the command to loop!

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:44 am

Oh I am so desperate! I have been at this all week but had no luck. Just want to crack it as there are no decent teletext animation programs around......
Do you think there is a way of peering inside the Movie Maker demo files? If I could do that I could look at the commands in Movie Maker itself.
I tried exporting and opening in Notepad but had no luck. Are there any other tools I can use to look at BBC code like this please?

I tried opening the demo Movie Maker files in MM but they just don't load. There must have been a way to lock them down.

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:55 am

I think this is the example file
Attachments
MovieMakerFilmDemo.zip
(598 Bytes) Downloaded 16 times

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:08 am

I did think about that (looking in the demo files).

You can *DUMP them, and there were a few of the same words as when I used the strings command.

Looking at the demo files could work ... but it might be a complete red herring if the MM ROMs built some library code (a run time) + data files. If that is different to how it works when building them (on a machine with the ROMs) then you'd be barking up the wrong tree.

Think the hypnosis might be simpler.

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:17 am

Thanks Richard. Right now I would sell a kidney for the Movie Maker manual.
Slippery Slug from Bath........if you are out there in cyberspace somewhere please get in touch......I know it's been 30 years...but....I am begging you! :lol:

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:20 am

Have you tried :-& :-$ social media? Think there is a FB group, maybe someone will hear of the Slippery Slug pursuit if you post there?

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:22 am

That is a good point Richard. I have been avoiding Zucky FB for as long as humanly possible. I guess if FB want my personal data all it's going to be is BBC micro posts and Mode 2 8 bit colour art! :lol:

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:38 am

Ahhh, the trick is to get someone else to post (and give all their personal data). Mind you, these days, whether you opt-in or -out, they :shock: still track you :(

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:48 am

I've got this ... I've tried some of the stuff you said (define shape, program, cycles, rotate, etc.), and tried typing lots of things ...
mm2.png
I type R (for run, maybe?), and it runs the animation (just shuffles around the screen) of my rotated 6 shape over and over again.

If I choose 6 from the main menu, it shows I've got two Shapes, 1 Shape XYZ and 2 Shape BLOB and one Program, 3 Program XYZ.

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:06 am

Run through the steps along these lines:

*MM
Esc to screen pad
Tab, arrow keys, draw a simple shape
D for define
Entry Name: BLOB
Handles are drawn around the shape, Esc
P to program, it shows Program BLOB at the bottom, type right it shows? Frames? Program steps?
*DEFINE CYCLE 1
Frame 2 Define cycle 1? F for next frame?
Esc to exit programming

R to run. There can be a delay of seconds at the end of the run, not sure why? Just be patient and it runs again.

Define a second one, SHAPE2, Program it ... works.

I've got a "d" and an "o" shape moving around on screen ...
do2.png
do1.png
mm3.png

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:24 am

Attached the ssd of the "do" letters animation from above. So extract mm.ssd from mm.zip.

So go *MM
2 (for load entire memory)
do (for the file name)
Esc to go into screenpad
R to run

There seems to be about a 5 second delay before it restarts, not sure if that is built-in or something I've done. Way more likely to be the latter.

Hope this helps ... it seems to be what you wanted - endless animation ...
Attachments
mm.zip
(499 Bytes) Downloaded 14 times

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:35 am

Thanks Richard for peservering / trying to help.. I did get as far as you......

The problem is....if you set up a man walking - say 10 frames...........you want it to keep repeating so he keeps walking. Currently that means having to keep typing *ROTATE 1 every cycle of the animation. It is not looping this again and again. Slippery Slug: You need your ears to be boxed for not supplying one page of a help file! I also found a command *SLUG. That seems to slow things down. Who would have thought - *SLUG is a command!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if we have any tech heads out there who can read assembly easily from this ROM ....but if anyone reading this can crack this out it would be so appreciated. When I started looking for teletext software and animation packages there doesn't seem to be anything out there. A shame as Mode 7 gives you so much room to play around and produce animation.


Here's some more things I discovered:

AMEND CYCLE 1 for example will let you go back into your shape's animation and amend it. You can step through the animation with CTRL + < or > one frame at a time. Currently I don't know how to remove a frame from within the animation cycle (or add a frame)

In the main program, The key W waits.......

There is also a command *DEFINE SEGMENT but I can't recall what a segment is or how to view them . I just keep getting 'Segment Room KEY'. I remember using *SEGMENT though back in the day.

*START 1 starts the animation of the shape off. Then you have *CONTINUE 1 and * HOLD - think these are related to the animation of the shapes.
Of course *ROTATE 1 does a whole cycle of animation 1 for that shape.

*FRAME means you can jump to a frame straight away. You can thumb through each frame in the main screen with CTRL And >

'L' Gives you a list of your recorded commands /keystrokes. 'A' seems to let you edit these and step through ( can't really work this out too much but it's there). 'I' gives you frame information.

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:42 am

Didn't think I'd have cracked it, but worth mentioning ... :D

Disassembly ... two 16K ROMs ... a lot of work involved in there, especially when we don't know what exactly the software is trying to do. So you can see it is shuffling some bytes from here to there, or that it is waiting for a key, or processing a command ... but why is it doing it?

Definitely doable. And I could do it, but I know I'd get distr... sorry, what was I talking about? :oops: :? [-X

I've occasionally started disassembling game code of a few KB, and even that, after a while ... :shock: ](*,) =; It's not fun!

Any takers? (Tumbleweed blows past).

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:47 am

Hmmm forget that then. LIfe is too short! :lol:


User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:11 pm

Thanks a lot Lurkio.

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3590
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by richardtoohey » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:54 am

I might have a look, see if I can find the command-processing or keyboard-checking parts at least.

2x16KB ROMs ... I think BASIC and OS 1.2 are 16K each, so imagine how long it would take to understand those two ROMs (think they'd be doing a LOT more clever stuff, though.) People have disassembled both, but guessing it took them some time.

Also although the ROM files are 16K they might have empty patches/repeated bits so might not be 32K of solid code.

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:11 am

Well thank you Richard but please don't go out of your way with it. It sounds like it could take ages.
The thing is I can see the potential in this package. It could be really awesome!
I expect the looping trigger is a typed command not a combination of hotkeys.

User avatar
marcusjambler
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 11:20 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by marcusjambler » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:04 pm

Hi All

I pullled the two ROMS into notepad and the second one has this list near the beginning:

"SUBTITLE HOLD CONTINUE FINISH DEFINE START ROTATE CYCLE STOP FOLLOW FIND CENTRE MESSAGE RESET AMEND PROGRAM REMEMBER CLOCK SEEK FRAME RUN SEGMENT COLOUR MOVE BUBBLE SCREEN LIST JUMP SLUG FLIP FRONT REVEAL CONCEAL MERGE COVER PREVIOUS NEXT JOIN CLEAR DUPLICATE KEY"

Hope it helps.

Marcus :D

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:16 pm

That looks very helpful indeed Marcus! =D>
Both you and Richard will help me get there :)

User avatar
pixelblip
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Movie Maker Slippery Slug

Post by pixelblip » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:18 pm

Trying to find this looping command is slow going and is leaving me rather red faced :lol:
Attachments
Sad Slug.png

Post Reply