Various Terminal Emulators

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SpaceFlightOrange
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Various Terminal Emulators

Post by SpaceFlightOrange »

Hi.

you may have seen my post on "Today I Received..." about a large selection of ROMS i was given. These were rescued from certain death by a friend of mine who works at one of the local Uni's sent them over. below is a small selection. They range from some unknown small ROMS (with no chip ID) through 2716's to 27c256's. not all are for the Beeb.
IMG_0857.jpeg
Among the chips was a MOS chip, an original Wordwise Plus, an older copy of Wordwise. There are a couple labelled Kermit and a bunch of others labelled VAX and IBM. These ones are all hand written labels.

So, it turns out that these are Beeb ROMs developed mainly by a guy named Alan Rhind-Tutt, from the University of London Computer Centre (ULCC) and they are various terminal emulators. I did a search for the name and found a paper (that i had to buy so i've only read the abstract) about a ROM he developed to emulate an IBM 3270 terminal for connecting to a mainframe.I have that here along with some other terminal emulators, only I'm not sure i have it all. I have 4 ROMS but they are numbered 4,8,9, & 14. one is a workstation rom, a couple are config ROMS and a utility ROM. one is a language ROM and prioritising this over BASIC will start it up, though it complains about the config. I couldn't find a * command to launch it so I believe it needs to be prioritised to work, but it does need BASIC in there too, so i suspect the machines these were installed in had ROM boards in, or you didn't actually need all 4. not sure yet.
Screenshot 2021-04-07 at 19.54.58.png
Screenshot 2021-04-07 at 20.48.23.png

Another appears to be a VAX VT100 terminal emulator
Screenshot 2021-04-08 at 12.33.50.png

and the IBM 3270 Emulator
Screenshot 2021-04-08 at 12.36.34.png


And then there's Kermit
Screenshot 2021-04-08 at 12.56.47.png
The only other one that looked interesting is one labelled BBC Master Emulator. I suspect its another terminal emulator, but it looks corrupt. in fact it's a 27128 DIP28 but it gave me a weird ID (a PIC16F627A@DIP18) but when i read it again, it got no ID back.

I still have a bunch to go through but i think the rest are non-Beeb ROMS.

Anyway, i have imaged these and played with them on B2 and i wondered if they would be of interest to anyone here?
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Last edited by SpaceFlightOrange on Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B), IFEL TurboMMC, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro, VideoNuLA

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Pernod
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Re: Various Terminal Emulators

Post by Pernod »

SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
Anyway, i have imaged these and played with them on B2 and i wondered if they would be of interest to anyone here?
Yep, post them all here and I'll go through them to see if there's anything not previously archived.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.
Coeus
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Re: Various Terminal Emulators

Post by Coeus »

SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
you may have seen my post on "Today I Received..." about a large selection of ROMS i was given...
That certainly looks like an interesting find.
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
...There are a couple labelled Kermit...
I don't know if you have a particularly interesting version of Kermit but the BBC Micro Kermit is open source. The last official version is 1.45 and is available from the Kermit Software Source Code Archive. J.G. Harston has released a version 1.46 with a couple of small changes on his mdfs.net site. There was talk of a version 2 but I don't know if it ever got written - I assume not.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, I haven't used Kermit for a while now but there was a time when it was what we would regularly use at work for data transfers between remote and esoteric equipment and more standard, general purpose computers. Coumbia closed the Kermit project in 2011 and the date looks suspiciously like when Frank da Cruz, the main driving force behind it, would have been due to retire (he would have been 67).
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
... and a bunch of others labelled VAX and IBM...
Do you think these are ROMs to go into a VAX or IBM? Or, probably more likely, software to communicate with those two machines.
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
...a ROM he developed to emulate an IBM 3270 terminal for connecting to a mainframe.
I am not sure how many people would find that useful these days, but it's certainly interesting. I wonder how it connected to the IBM mainframe. Generally they had proprietary, synchronous protocols rather than the normal ASCII over asynchronous serial favoured by other machines. Is it possible this ROM expected to connect to the IBM mainframe indirectly by going over Econet first to some kind of gateway? A BBC micro would have been quite a lot cheaper than a proper 3270-series terminal.

That's also interesting timing as there has been some renewed interesting in Econet on here recently. If someone did want to set up a demo of this working, there is an IBM mainframe emulator called Hercules that runs on both Linux and Windows.
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
...one is a language ROM and prioritising this over BASIC will start it up, though it complains about the config. I couldn't find a * command to launch it...
It is often possible to enter a language ROM even without knowing its own star command with *fx142,r where r is the ROM number. Where this might not work is if the ROM's service entry, processing its selection command, sets up something which the language entry then needs.
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
...but it does need BASIC in there too...
For what? For something to return to to get a command prompt or is it one of those "naughty" ROMs that uses subroutines from within the BASIC ROM?
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:05 pm
The only other one that looked interesting is one labelled BBC Master Emulator...
There is a ROM around that emulates some of the OS (MOS) features of the BBC Master on a Model B. I don't know if the ROM you have is this, or whether it is a terminal emulator that needs a BBC Master to run on rather than a standard Model B.

Yes, please do post them. You'll probably need to ZIP them for the forum s/w to accept them. I guess they should probably go in the archive submissions section: viewforum.php?f=32
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SpaceFlightOrange
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Re: Various Terminal Emulators

Post by SpaceFlightOrange »

Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm

I don't know if you have a particularly interesting version of Kermit but the BBC Micro Kermit is open source. The last official version is 1.45 and is available from the Kermit Software Source Code Archive. J.G. Harston has released a version 1.46 with a couple of small changes on his mdfs.net site. There was talk of a version 2 but I don't know if it ever got written - I assume not.
Thanks for the pointer, i didn't know about the Columbia Archive. This is the same version, so nothing interesting there.
I vaguely recall using Kermit back in Uni but it's a long time now.
Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm

Do you think these are ROMs to go into a VAX or IBM? Or, probably more likely, software to communicate with those two machines.
These ones are terminal emulators for the Beeb. Though there are a bunch of others (27C256's) that are definitely not for the Beeb. still trying to get some info on those as there's nothing meaningful in the rom dumps themselves. At least not to me anyway :lol:
Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm

I am not sure how many people would find that useful these days, but it's certainly interesting. I wonder how it connected to the IBM mainframe. Generally they had proprietary, synchronous protocols rather than the normal ASCII over asynchronous serial favoured by other machines. Is it possible this ROM expected to connect to the IBM mainframe indirectly by going over Econet first to some kind of gateway? A BBC micro would have been quite a lot cheaper than a proper 3270-series terminal.

That's also interesting timing as there has been some renewed interesting in Econet on here recently. If someone did want to set up a demo of this working, there is an IBM mainframe emulator called Hercules that runs on both Linux and Windows.
Yeah, my first thoughts were the CCH or TNMOC but im not sure if they have any IBM kit or not. but an emulator sounds interesting. regarding the coms. i haven't the foggiest to be honest, i don't know if the paper i mentioned might give some insight (i'll post the link), but when i played around with the config, there was a bunch of stuff in there i haven't a clue about.
Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm

It is often possible to enter a language ROM even without knowing its own star command with *fx142,r where r is the ROM number. Where this might not work is if the ROM's service entry, processing its selection command, sets up something which the language entry then needs.
:o I never knew that! and yes, it does work! Thanks for the tip!
Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm

For what? For something to return to to get a command prompt or is it one of those "naughty" ROMs that uses subroutines from within the BASIC ROM?
Yeah, The utility rom on it's own looks to start up ok without BASIC installed but it looks like the configuration ROM needs it. if you try to access it from the main menu, it won't start without BASIC, displaying a "Bad Name" error.

I'll get them all uploaded shortly
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B), IFEL TurboMMC, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro, VideoNuLA

Master 128, Watford Quest Mouse, Gotek, Pi-Zero internal CoPro, Pi-1Mhz HDD, RGBtoHDMI

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sweh
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Re: Various Terminal Emulators

Post by sweh »

Coeus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:33 pm
computers. Coumbia closed the Kermit project in 2011 and the date looks suspiciously like when Frank da Cruz, the main driving force behind it, would have been due to retire (he would have been 67).
It got taken over (kinda) and migrated to https://www.kermitproject.org/
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Pernod
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Re: Various Terminal Emulators

Post by Pernod »

Only just noticed you've updated the first post with the dumps :)

Here's my findings:
BBC-NWT-3270-2_1
kermit1-30 - differs by 2 bytes from previous dumps, maybe a serial number?
kermit1-45 - matches previous dumps 100%
masteremul - bad dump, only 4bits per byte dumped
ULCC-consolev872-9 - CONSOLE program, use with utility
ULCC-enhanced-console-config - CONFIG program, use with utility
ULCC-utility-14 - *commands are TIME, DATE, RESET, EVENT, INCODE, COPYSM, DISHELP, SETCOCK, ARCHIVE, PSE (expects a TimeWarp clock fitted)
ULCC-workstation-4 - differs from previous Workstation 1.4 dumps
VAX-VT100-C085 - later version
VAX-VT100-C085-2 - later version

The ULCC ROMs look like a set to be used together, certainly the console and config can only be used with utility.

The two VAX VT100 ROMs differ by two bytes, maybe a serial number?

Could you post some better photos of the ROMs, so that I can correctly label them?
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.
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