Torch MCP Versions

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Pernod
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Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 pm

There are various versions of the Torch MCP ROM, each followed by a 2 or 3 character code. I'm trying to document the variants and to determine what the code means. Some of this is already know from http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Torch/TORCH.TXT

Known MCP versions:
MCP 0.41 (CBL)
MCP 1.01 (AB) - Unicorn banner.
MCP 1.01 (AI) - not yet dumped, see http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/user ... 104670.jpg
MCP 1.01 (CI) - Torch Model 301
MCP 1.20 (CBL)
MCP 1.21 (ABL)
MCP 1.21 (ABW)
MCP 1.22 (ABW)
MCP 1.22 (ABM)
MCP 1.22 (CIL) - Torch Model 735

Code abc where:
a = Machine type
b = Keyboard
c = FDC

Machine type:
A = BBC Micro
C = Torch C-Series (or later)

Keyboard:
B = BBC B
I = Torch, the CIL variant has completely different keyboard when emulated.

FDC:
L = BBC B 8271 (Legacy?)
W = BBC B/B+ 1770 (WD)
M = BBC Master (Master)

The ABc variants were likely shipped with the Z80 Communicator board for the BBC range.

Note that the codes AB and AI don't seem to have a FDC code. Maybe they pre-date the B/B+ 1770 and so wasn't required.

Anyone have anything to add to this?
Last edited by Pernod on Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:11 am, edited 5 times in total.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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jgharston
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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by jgharston » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:55 am

Pernod wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 pm
...
Keyboard:
B = BBC B
I = Torch, the CIL variant has completely different keyboard when emulated.
Interesting, all the ROMs I have are xBx versions that came from Torch machines based on a BBC+8271 with this keyboard:

Code: Select all

                                                            Torch keyboard layout
                                                            =====================
                                                                       copy  left  right down   up   left  copy  right
+-----+-----+-----+-----+   +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+   +-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |   |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |lower|upper|move |move |move |   | del | del | del |
| f0  | f1  | f2  | f3  |   | f4  | f5  | f6  | f7  | f8  | f9  | f10 |     |     |     |     |     | <-- | past| --> |   | <-- | line| --> |
+-----+--+--+-----+-----+   +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+   +-----+-----+-----+
|        |        |     |   |     |  *  |  \  |  /  |  @  |  £  |  $  |  &  |  %  |  -  |  =  |  <  |  >  |  `  |  ~  |   |     |     |     |
|  para  |  file  |redo |   | esc |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  [  |  ]  |  |  |  ^  |   |  7  |  8  |  9  |
+--------+--------+-----+   +-----+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+   +-----+-----+-----+
|        |        |under|   |        |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  {  |  }  |        |   |     |     |     |
| window | screen | line|   |tabulate|  q  |  w  |  e  |  r  |  t  |  y  |  u  |  i  |  o  |  p  |  (  |  )  |  line  |   |  4  |  5  |  6  |
+--------+--------+-----+   +--------+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+---+-+----++---+--------+   +-----+-----+-----+
|        |        |     |   |          |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  :  |  "  |            |   |     |     |     |
|  word  |  line  |undo |   | capitals |  a  |  s  |  d  |  f  |  g  |  h  |  j  |  k  |  l  |  ;  |  '  |   return   |   |  1  |  2  |  3  |
+-----+--+--+-----+-----+   +---+------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+-----+   +-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |       |         |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ?  |  !  |  +  |         |         |  £  |     |  $  |
|insrt|begin| end |ctrl |       |  shift  |  z  |  x  |  c  |  v  |  b  |  n  |  m  |  ,  |  .  |  -  |  shift  |         |  _  |  0  |  .  |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+       +---------+--+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--+--+-----+----+----+         +-----+-----+-----+
                                             |                                               |             |
                                             |                                               | exact space |
                                             +-----------------------------------------------+-------------+
Editing keys:
&A0 exact space   &A1 line   &A2 undo     &A3 window   &A4 screen      &A5 para     &A6 file       &A7 redo
&A9 begin         &AA end    &AB insert   &AC word     &5F underline   &08 <--del   &7F del line   &07 del-->
Wot? Shift-dot for ! Shift-1 gives * ?!?!?!?

(Edited with corrected keyboard layout)
Last edited by jgharston on Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Pernod
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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:12 pm

jgharston wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:55 am
Wot? Shift-dot for ! Shift-1 gives * ?!?!?!?
The whole matrix seems very different, not even normal characters match so not able to type anything until I remap everything.

Can you add anything about where each version was found, ie. from a specific Torch machine or BBC with Z80 board?

It'll be interesting to see what we find in the Torch Model 301 tomorrow.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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jgharston
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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by jgharston » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:17 pm

Pernod wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:12 pm
jgharston wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:55 am
Wot? Shift-dot for ! Shift-1 gives * ?!?!?!?
The whole matrix seems very different, not even normal characters match so not able to type anything until I remap everything.
The matrix is here, and it is well different. I can't see why they changed the matrix, go ahead and extra keys in the spare columns yes, but why shuffle everything around? It's not even as though they made an effort to simplify decoding like with the Atom keyboard where the keycode is the raw ASCII code.

Hmm. That schmatic I've linked to is labelled with "normal" keycodes, 1! 2" ,< .> etc. I'll have to get an actual keyboard out of the cupboard and check with reality!

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Pernod
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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:07 pm

jgharston wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:17 pm
The matrix is here, and it is well different. I can't see why they changed the matrix, go ahead and extra keys in the spare columns yes, but why shuffle everything around? It's not even as though they made an effort to simplify decoding like with the Atom keyboard where the keycode is the raw ASCII code.

Hmm. That schmatic I've linked to is labelled with "normal" keycodes, 1! 2" ,< .> etc. I'll have to get an actual keyboard out of the cupboard and check with reality!
I've implemented the keyboard according to your schematic, and the SHIFT characters match the schematic rather than the actual keyboard, which is odd :?
product-106233.jpg
There are lots of keys that I haven't mapped, specifically those to the left (para, file, redo, window, etc.), though expect these to be shortcuts for CTRL codes. Similarly for the top row after the function keys. There's also no BREAK key!

The schematic has 3 keys I'm unsure about above Shift, Ctrl, Alt labelled D3, D2, D1. I've mapped D3 as Tab but not sure what the other are?
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by jgharston » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:49 pm

Pernod wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:07 pm
There are lots of keys that I haven't mapped, specifically those to the left (para, file, redo, window, etc.), though expect these to be shortcuts for CTRL codes. Similarly for the top row after the function keys. There's also no BREAK key!
Yeah, though there's a spare wire in the curlycord, so I used that for the break line and snaffled one of the keys
Pernod wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:07 pm
The schematic has 3 keys I'm unsure about above Shift, Ctrl, Alt labelled D3, D2, D1. I've mapped D3 as Tab but not sure what the other are?
I'm away from home at the mo, I'll dig a keyboard out over the weekend and map out reality.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by jgharston » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:29 am

Pernod wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:07 pm
The schematic has 3 keys I'm unsure about above Shift, Ctrl, Alt labelled D3, D2, D1. I've mapped D3 as Tab but not sure what the other are?
Those aren't keys, they are diodes that seperate the modifier keys from the keypress keys. The modifier keys on row zero do not generate keypress interupts, the keypress keys generate interupts - see the multi-NAND at the right. The diodes disconnect the modifier keys from the keypress keys to prevent them ghosting the keypress keys. If you look at the BBC keyboard schematic you can see them on every column as columns 2 to 9 are the keyboard configuration links which are functionally modifier "keys".

I've buzzed out a Torch 300 keyboard - the one used with Torch systems that use a BBC motherboard - and worked out the schematic: http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/Torch/torchbbcbd.gif
The previous schematic appears to be the keyboard for the Torch TX.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:30 pm

jgharston wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:29 am
Those aren't keys, they are diodes that seperate the modifier keys from the keypress keys.
Yep, realised that after I posted.
jgharston wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:29 am
I've buzzed out a Torch 300 keyboard - the one used with Torch systems that use a BBC motherboard - and worked out the schematic: http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/Torch/torchbbcbd.gif
The previous schematic appears to be the keyboard for the Torch TX.
Excellent =D> There's now too many keys to conveniently map to a PC keyboard, but at least I can document them and let the user map any as required.
I'm still to find a version of MCP that produces those shifted characters. The Model 301 from CfCH with MCP 1.01 (CI) doesn't produce the shifted characters shown on the keyboard.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by jgharston » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:16 pm

I've worked out that MCP041cbl is the host ROM for the Torch 300 series: the Torch behemoth and the Torch "slice" box, that use a BBC motherboard and the weird Torch keyboard. MCP120cbl is the host ROM to use when using the BBC's own keyboard.

From going through the disassembly I've corrected the keyboard schematic, the keys I had labelled "blue 1" to "blue 4" are actually f0-f3, and the rest of the blue keys are f4-f10 and the cursor keys with Torch-specific labelling. This brings torrents of memories flooding back, fighting to work out WTF each of the unlabelled blue keys did, and where on earth the cursor keys were. I've also worked out the keypress codes for the edit control pad as well, they are mostly &Ax characters. I thought that the keypad numbers would have special keypress codes, but they're just duplicates of the main numbers. And a surprising memory that flooded back: the key that looks like "£" (ie underline and pound) is actually minus and pound! Underline is, would you beleive it, the key labelled "underline" !

I've also gathered together my unprocessed scans (reprocessed a bit to squash them down a bit) at http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/Torch/Source/ I've got a few more sheets that I haven't scanned yet, mostly just component lists.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:36 pm

jgharston wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:16 pm
I've also gathered together my unprocessed scans (reprocessed a bit to squash them down a bit) at http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/Torch/Source/ I've got a few more sheets that I haven't scanned yet, mostly just component lists.
Thanks for all the info, and schematics. Should keep me quiet for awhile!
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Multiwizard » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:28 am

Pernod wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 pm
There are various versions of the Torch MCP ROM, each followed by a 2 or 3 character code. I'm trying to document the variants and to determine what the code means. Some of this is already know from http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Torch/TORCH.TXT

Known MCP versions:
MCP 0.41 (CBL)
MCP 1.01 (AB) - Unicorn banner.
MCP 1.01 (AI) - not yet dumped, see http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/user ... 104670.jpg
MCP 1.01 (CI) - Torch Model 301
MCP 1.20 (CBL)
MCP 1.21 (ABL)
MCP 1.21 (ABW)
MCP 1.22 (ABW)
MCP 1.22 (ABM)
MCP 1.22 (CIL) - Torch Model 735

Anyone have anything to add to this?
I don't know, I might... :?

I installed a Torch board a few years ago in one of my Beebs which was:

MCP 0.41 (0A)


Greetings, Wim... :-)
Attachments
P1320900.JPG

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 am

Multiwizard wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:28 am
I installed a Torch board a few years ago in one of my Beebs which was:

MCP 0.41 (0A)
The 0A is not part of the version. Your 0.41 probably matches what we already have, maybe with dumping though to confirm. It doesn't have the CBL suffix as it predates the different hardware configurations.

Thanks for checking.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Multiwizard » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:55 am

Pernod wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 am
Multiwizard wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:28 am
I installed a Torch board a few years ago in one of my Beebs which was:

MCP 0.41 (0A)
The 0A is not part of the version. Your 0.41 probably matches what we already have, maybe with dumping though to confirm. It doesn't have the CBL suffix as it predates the different hardware configurations.

Thanks for checking.
What type of DIP is the Torch rom I do have a prommer otherwise I would be able to read out this rom.

I also found a old pic of it does Torch CCCP (V0.94) say anything?
Attachments
P1220503 Beeb Torch Help Closeup.JPG

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:06 am

Multiwizard wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:55 am
What type of DIP is the Torch rom I do have a prommer otherwise I would be able to read out this rom.

I also found a old pic of it does Torch CCCP (V0.94) say anything?
The earlier Torch ROMs were 8K, so 2764.

CCCP refers to the ROM on the Z80 board, and CCCP 0.94 is the partner to MCP 0.41. What you have will very likely match those at http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Torch/
- Nigel

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Multiwizard » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:45 am

Ok done...

TER: Torch Eurocard Rom

TBR: Torch Beeb Rom


Greetings, Wim... :-)
Attachments
TER.rar
(6.88 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
TBR.rar
(11.48 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
2764 Torch Eurocard rom.JPG
27128 Torch beeb rom.JPG

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Pernod » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:56 am

Multiwizard wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:45 am
Ok done...

TER: Torch Eurocard Rom

TBR: Torch Beeb Rom
Both bad dumps, the byte ordering is switched.
- Nigel

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Re: Torch MCP Versions

Post by Multiwizard » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 pm

Pernod wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:56 am
Multiwizard wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:45 am
Ok done...

TER: Torch Eurocard Rom

TBR: Torch Beeb Rom
Both bad dumps, the byte ordering is switched.
a pity... :-(

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