A3010 hard disc interface

Arc/RPCs, peripherals, RISCOS operating system & ARM kit eg GP2x, BeagleBoard
Zarchos
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by Zarchos » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:11 am

Munchausen, will you have some time with the end of the year to resume working on this fab project ?
That'd be really great.

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:41 am

Zarchos wrote:Munchausen, will you have some time with the end of the year to resume working on this fab project ?
That'd be really great.
I'd love to, but I don't have a lot of time at the moment - my son is 5 weeks old and I just got the keys to our new house last week (2 months late) and am spending all the rest of my time laying parquet flooring (even xmas day) so that we can move in! It will be a while before it all settles down again and I able to look again at this project, but I haven't forgotten about it!

Merry Christmas to all the Acorn users!

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trixster
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by trixster » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:57 am

Any news on this project, it's fascinating!
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:45 pm

trixster wrote:Any news on this project, it's fascinating!
Sorry, I'm afraid not. I'm sure I'll get it working when I get time to have a go at it again, but it's been the most manic year of my life so far... so it will have to stay on hold for now.

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:16 pm

Just a quick note to say that I've tried the various suggestions here and have not had any improvement. To be precise; I've added a 100uF decoupling cap to the power rails, 100nF to both ICs, 22ohm resistors in series with IOR, IOW and !I13, and have grounded IOCS16. I think when I next get a chance I'll try to resolder the CPU connections because I'm not entirely confident in them. The next step beyond that is probably to connect up a logic analyser because I don't have any other bright ideas.

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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:37 pm

I might try and implement this myself, I've always wanted IDE functionality in my A3010 without using the expansion slot. :D
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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:23 pm

munchausen wrote:Haha, ok I've just looked at the A4000 schematics and it has pin 27 connected to +5V via a 5K resistor!

I don't have time to fix this now but it looks like that is almost certainly the issue.
Not sure if you've seen this:

http://www.vectorlight.net/assets/docum ... /reference

Pin 27 is not connected on an A3020 according to that document. It is on an A4000 for some reason? I will open my A3020 tomorrow and double-check this pin is not connected for sure.

This document has details of the IDE interface (and the pinout) in the A3020/A4000 and may be useful to you if you haven't already seen it? :D
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munchausen
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:07 pm

Yeah, I don't know if that pin really matters (at least connecting it or not hasn't made any difference). I suspect supply noise/grounding or wiring issues are my problem, I think I should get some low ESR caps and perhaps check some of the connections, then crack out the logic analyser and see what is going on.

I'm struggling to get much done because (due to space constraints) I don't have a work area set up at the moment. Normally I'd work on things like this in the evening (spare time during the day is a scarce resource) but it means getting out the acorn, a monitor, tools, extension leads, soldering station, etc for just a few hours of work and then putting it all away again before bed... all without waking up my 2 year old! We have plans for a garage conversion some day...

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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:39 pm

I've built a version of this myself and have had some success with it. I've used a slightly different approach to munchausen and have built a board that plugs into the ROM sockets which saves soldering a about 19 connections :D

Have booted it up today with a pair of known working CF cards and hey presto it works :D

Image

Image

I know, it could be a lot more compact. I've already re-designed it to use a lot less space :D
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steve3000
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by steve3000 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:07 pm

:shock: Wow! That's excellent! :D

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danielj
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by danielj » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:20 pm

=D> And suddenly the A3010 becomes useful!

:D well done!

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flaxcottage
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by flaxcottage » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:31 pm

Oh yeah! =D> =D>
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by Trapper » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:36 am

Now to find someone who can crank a few out for us poor souls who can't solder!

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danielj
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by danielj » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:47 am

How many hook ups to the motherboard does it need?

d.

SteveBagley
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by SteveBagley » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:55 am

danielj wrote:How many hook ups to the motherboard does it need?
A thought on this -- when I upgraded the memory in an Atari ST many years ago, the upgrade came with an adapter that you just pushed over the top of the chip to make all the connections. For a surface mount chip like this the adapter looked like an upside down socket on a PCB with a ribbon cable to connect to the RAM. I wonder if a similar approach could be used here…

Steve

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1024MAK
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:23 pm

danielj wrote:How many hook ups needed?

d.
Depends on how many drinks you buy, and in which pub or club... :lol:
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1024MAK
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:36 pm

SteveBagley wrote:
danielj wrote:How many hook ups to the motherboard does it need?
A thought on this -- when I upgraded the memory in an Atari ST many years ago, the upgrade came with an adapter that you just pushed over the top of the chip to make all the connections. For a surface mount chip like this the adapter looked like an upside down socket on a PCB with a ribbon cable to connect to the RAM. I wonder if a similar approach could be used here…

Steve
There were two types, depending on which MMU chip was used (Atari produced a number of board versions). There was also an adaptor for the DIL shifter chip. So it was almost a "plug and play" upgrade. Well, until it came loose...
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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:49 pm

Thanks for all the comments :D
danielj wrote:How many hook ups to the motherboard does it need?

d.
It needs 21 wires soldering to various places including 7 on the ARM250 & controller chips which are quite tricky :shock:
SteveBagley wrote:A thought on this -- when I upgraded the memory in an Atari ST many years ago, the upgrade came with an adapter that you just pushed over the top of the chip to make all the connections. For a surface mount chip like this the adapter looked like an upside down socket on a PCB with a ribbon cable to connect to the RAM. I wonder if a similar approach could be used here…

Steve
Thats a great idea, if suitable adapters can be found to fit the ARM250. Failing that, 3D printing may offer a solution here. :D

I've been doing some tests, bulk copying files from one drive to another and it seems a lot faster than my castle interface in my other A3010. I guess its because this is in 16 bit mode :D
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by atcurtis » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:17 am

vectorlight wrote:I've built a version of this myself and have had some success with it. I've used a slightly different approach to munchausen and have built a board that plugs into the ROM sockets which saves soldering a about 19 connections :D

Have booted it up today with a pair of known working CF cards and hey presto it works :D

Image

Image

I know, it could be a lot more compact. I've already re-designed it to use a lot less space :D
Cool! Any spare bare PCBs for sale?

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:54 am

atcurtis wrote:Cool! Any spare bare PCBs for sale?
If you cover the postage you can have one for free. Just the bare PCB, no components. I'll make a list of all the components soon. :D
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:40 pm

This is awesome! Well done!

I'd be interested to see your schematics to see if there are any differences to my veroboard implementation.

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:14 pm

munchausen wrote:This is awesome! Well done!

I'd be interested to see your schematics to see if there are any differences to my veroboard implementation.
Thanks! My wiring is the same as the A3020 diagrams plus resistors on IOR & IOW as you've done. Have you managed to try a CF card that is known to work? The main differences to what I've done is:

1. Use BD0-6 from the points behind the mini podule (top-side) rather than underneath off the podule connections themselves.
2. RST comes from the top of the board near the 72mhz crystal where there is an existing factory mod.
3. Mount the board on the ROM sockets and use D8-15, D24-31 and also LA2-4 off this as well.
4. Add a HCT14 to the board and run I!3* straight to this rather than using the IC on the A3010 board. (Just trying to keep all the wires as short as possible.)
5. Used a IDE-44 pin connector

I do actually have an issue with my implementation in that some CF cards (that I've used with my Castle IDE card no problems) cannot be accessed with this modification, the error is saying the drive isn't formatted. So I think there is something not quite right with what I've done :( Most cards work fine though so its all a bit wierd. :shock:

The cards that do show up work great, I've done lots of copying of files from one drive to another and all the software I've run from the drives loads perfectly.

As I've mounted it on the ROMs there isn't much room for the card, I have had to run the cable over to the right-side (where your board is) and put the CF cards there.
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munchausen
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by munchausen » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:50 pm

I don't have any other acorn machines, so it's impossible for me to know if any of my cards will work or not in advance of trying them. Have you tried formatting/partitioning on the machine directly with hform (which is where I get stuck)? I've thought for a while I should probably invert the signal locally, as the wire is very long (I was thinking of just using a transistor).

I have thought about a similar mounting as you in the past. It isn't possible to find large enough PLCC sockets anymore to mount over the CPU/IO chip, however it would probably be possible to build small pcbs with contacts on the bottom side to meet with the pins and solder them with a reflow gun. I don't know if it is possible to make a "half via" or otherwise get copper on to the actual edge of the board, but that would make it possible using an iron. just an idea...

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by atcurtis » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:58 am

vectorlight wrote:
atcurtis wrote:Cool! Any spare bare PCBs for sale?
If you cover the postage you can have one for free. Just the bare PCB, no components. I'll make a list of all the components soon. :D
Sure... Tell me how much to pay via paypal to post it to the USA (where I live these days).

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by atcurtis » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:02 am

munchausen wrote:I don't have any other acorn machines, so it's impossible for me to know if any of my cards will work or not in advance of trying them. Have you tried formatting/partitioning on the machine directly with hform (which is where I get stuck)? I've thought for a while I should probably invert the signal locally, as the wire is very long (I was thinking of just using a transistor).

I have thought about a similar mounting as you in the past. It isn't possible to find large enough PLCC sockets anymore to mount over the CPU/IO chip, however it would probably be possible to build small pcbs with contacts on the bottom side to meet with the pins and solder them with a reflow gun. I don't know if it is possible to make a "half via" or otherwise get copper on to the actual edge of the board, but that would make it possible using an iron. just an idea...
Unfortunately, no one makes FPC cable at the right pitch.

Half vias are possible. On most services, it's called Castellated holes.

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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:49 pm

munchausen wrote:I don't have any other acorn machines, so it's impossible for me to know if any of my cards will work or not in advance of trying them. Have you tried formatting/partitioning on the machine directly with hform (which is where I get stuck)? I've thought for a while I should probably invert the signal locally, as the wire is very long (I was thinking of just using a transistor).

I have thought about a similar mounting as you in the past. It isn't possible to find large enough PLCC sockets anymore to mount over the CPU/IO chip, however it would probably be possible to build small pcbs with contacts on the bottom side to meet with the pins and solder them with a reflow gun. I don't know if it is possible to make a "half via" or otherwise get copper on to the actual edge of the board, but that would make it possible using an iron. just an idea...
Yep I've formatted several CF cards and also a really old mechanical drive and placed files on there which work fine when run.

I'll happily send you the old 80MB drive and 128MB CF card which I've formatted using my interface FOC so you can test if you want? :D
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by danielj » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:44 pm

It's going to be the old "ADFS isn't quite IDE compliant" issue that everyone hits with CF/IDE on the RiscPC/A3020...

Apparently the SD-CF adaptors do the job?

d.

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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:57 pm

My final bit of testing of this was to install a PC card and make sure there were no issues: :D

Image

My 26mhz mod makes this look more messy than it should be :shock: I ended up moving the wires for BD0-6 to the podule like munchausen's design as the PC card seemed to cause interference when they in their original position. Here it all is put back together and running :D

Image

Now I just need to figure out a use for my redundant castle IDE board :D
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by danielj » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:57 pm

Sell it for ££££££ and use the proceeds for an ethernet podule!

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vectorlight
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Re: A3010 hard disc interface

Post by vectorlight » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:56 pm

danielj wrote:Sell it for ££££££ and use the proceeds for an ethernet podule!
Yep could do, I've a few questions about network cards but I'll make a new thread so as not to polute this one any more than I already have :D
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