A3000 power on test check error

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jpagen
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A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:20 pm

Hi

My A3000 has an ARM 3, Riscos 3.11, and 2MB RAM installed. I also had a PCATS graphics enhanced but I have removed that.

I recently read that the cmos battery is prone to leaking so I dug my A3000 out of storage, opened it up and found mine had leaked. :(

I removed the battery, neutralised the area with 1 part vinegar, 1part water solution followed by cleaning with IPA.
I can certainly see some trace damage but I will need to check continuity.

I decided to start it up and noticed the disk light flashing in sequence. There is no beep. I tried powering on, holding the Delete key to reset the CMOS.

I read on another post that the lights can be used to identify the error http://www.riscos.org/csafaq/part3.html#3_3

Based on a short flash=0 and long flash = 1, here is my sequence
0000
0000
0000
0010
0000
0001
0000
0001

I tried to figure out but I'm lost! Please can anyone help identify the error from this light sequence?
Thanks

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IanS
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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by IanS » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:52 pm

jpagen wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:20 pm
My A3000 has an ARM 3, Riscos 3.11, and 2MB RAM installed. I also had a PCATS graphics enhanced but I have removed that.
Where was this connected?, it it used the genlock connector you may need to re-fit a couple of links.

You can decode the error flashes on the retro-kit web site. https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... re-errors/

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:17 pm

Thanks for the reply
I checked out the error flashes on the retrokit website
For 0000 0000 0000 0010 0000 0001 0000 0001 (&20101 in hex), the following faults are suggested
-RAM control line failure
-CMOS RAM checksum error
-Self-test due to power-on
However there is a note that for the A3000, the RAM control line failure should have the fault code &20141 not &20101 so I am not certain if the suggested faults are correct for my A3000.

The PCATS enhancer consists of a podule and a board which clipped on to the VIDC which I have removed.
Link LK28 also had been removed, I reversed the procedure so I don't think that is the issue. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ncerIG.pdf
I have not installed a replacement battery as the picture shows but I assume that is not the problem

I have since taken a picture around the battery area and the damage is worse than I originally thought https://ibb.co/bFfScRp

Looking at the picture, the traces between L9 and R3 are probably a good place to start. Hopefully it is recoverable.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:33 pm

I have had another go at cleaning the affected area and it looks better. https://ibb.co/XF8BTJs

The traces around L7, L8, L9 and L10 look like they may be intact. There is still some green corrosion but a lot better than it was.

However I noticed that the L8 resister is actually broken so that may be the issue (or part of it). It will need to be replaced which will also allow me to clean the traces more easily. L7-L14 all look like they may have some corrosion so probably worth doing them all.

Found a similar thread viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12772 which shows these are Zero-Ohm which I have been trying to source. They seem to come in different power/current ratings. Please can anyone advise?

Thanks

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by IanS » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:08 pm

jpagen wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:33 pm
I have had another go at cleaning the affected area and it looks better. https://ibb.co/XF8BTJs
You can attach pictures here without having to link to an external site.
jpagen wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:33 pm
The traces around L7, L8, L9 and L10 look like they may be intact. There is still some green corrosion but a lot better than it was.

However I noticed that the L8 resister is actually broken so that may be the issue (or part of it). It will need to be replaced which will also allow me to clean the traces more easily. L7-L14 all look like they may have some corrosion so probably worth doing them all.

Found a similar thread viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12772 which shows these are Zero-Ohm which I have been trying to source. They seem to come in different power/current ratings. Please can anyone advise?
The L components will only affect the Mouse, nothing else. I have a roll of zero ohm resistors, commonnly sold as wire, I can cut it to any length required. Unless you are going for authenticity, just link them with wire. The components are probably fine, check them with a meter.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:34 pm

Thanks IanS. I tried inserting images before but they didn't display. I must have done something wrong. Here is an image after removing the resistors before cleaning with vinegar, water and IPA
a3000_3.jpg
I am still getting the &20101 error that I had before after cleaning and replacing the resistors.

On Retro-kit POST error calculator, that code relates to RAM control line failure for A300-A500 series but not for the A3000.
On the A310, this code suggests a failure on IC59 https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... rror=20101
Not sure if that is relevant but I cannot find IC59 anyway.

Just to highlight I have not replaced the battery yet and I noticed the keyboard ribbon cable connector is warn so I will need to fix that but would that cause the &20101 error? If my keyboard is not working properly, it may be that holding the Del key when turning on is not resetting the CMOS.

Any advice is appreciated!

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by IanS » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:44 pm

jpagen wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:34 pm
On Retro-kit POST error calculator, that code relates to RAM control line failure for A300-A500 series but not for the A3000.
On the A310, this code suggests a failure on IC59 https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... rror=20101
Not sure if that is relevant but I cannot find IC59 anyway.
IC59 is on the A300 board, not the A3000. The closest equivalent functionality is in IC28 in the A3000. My guess would still be track damage rather than chip damage. Work through the circuit diagram checking all the connections are still ok.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:56 pm

After a busy weekend, I have finally got around to checking continuity, so far I have not found a problem. I am thinking I may need to desolder IC4 and IC5 and see what is happening underneath. Before I do that, I am wondering if I would be better to sort out my worn keyboard ribbon first. If the delete power on is not clearing the CMOS could that cause the POST fail? I am just getting a blank screen with the disc drive flashes with no error messages

Thanks

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by Tills » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:37 pm

If there's no battery there is no need to reset the CMOS, as it will always be reset without power.

I had the RAM control line failure code once, but cured it be reseating the additional RAM. It's also worth noting that the CMOS chip can go peculiar when the battery has been dead for some time, at least as far as the realtime clock is concerned. It's easily replaced with a spare from eBay for couple of pounds.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by IanS » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:25 am

Tills wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:37 pm
If there's no battery there is no need to reset the CMOS, as it will always be reset without power.
Please explain how that works. How does it get reset? The RAM could power up with random values each time it is powered on if there is no battery fitted. Without a battery a Delete power on is the only way to be sure of the contents of the RTC Ram.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by Tills » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:17 pm

Without battery-backed power the CMOS chip is in a virgin state every time it loses power (in that sense of the word reset, i.e. a blank slate). As to whether a Delete-power-on is required to feed default values back on a 'blank' chip (which is your point), I would only say that when pulling the battery out and restarting my A3000 all values are reset to defaults anyway. Presumably Risc OS adds default values itself; it certainly requires no intervention on my part.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:31 pm

I've spent the best part of the day checking continuity around the battery area.

As far as I can tell, looking at the circuit diagram there should be a connection from the resistor L7 up to pin 1 on the SK7 keyboard connector but that was broken. I was not expecting that to be the problem but bridged the connection and as expected, I am still getting the same POST code.

The error code may suggest a CMOS RAM checksum error according to the POST calculator although I would have thought a Power on reset may have addressed that (unless the chip has failed). I have ordered a new PCF8583P CMOS chip as suggested which I hope to install next weekend.
Thanks for the responses!

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by sP1d3r » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:39 pm

:x Hi

I've read your post and as I've some experience of an A3000 in a similar state, it might be worth pointing out what my K3, as I call it, needed to boot up properly.

The picture shows all the solder pads in the area fluxed to try to overcome what happens to solder when it comes into contact with battery acid.
Although it improved the way that the solder flows considerably and the K3 works ok, it's a lot of work.

Hope of help!
Attachments
WP_20191126_001.jpg

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IanS
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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by IanS » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:56 pm

Tills wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:17 pm
Without battery-backed power the CMOS chip is in a virgin state every time it loses power (in that sense of the word reset, i.e. a blank slate).
Memory doesn't work like that. It will have random contents each time power is applied.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by Tills » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:47 pm

IanS wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:56 pm
Memory doesn't work like that. It will have random contents each time power is applied.
I see your point.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by myelin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:53 am

IanS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:44 pm
IC59 is on the A300 board, not the A3000. The closest equivalent functionality is in IC28 in the A3000. My guess would still be track damage rather than chip damage. Work through the circuit diagram checking all the connections are still ok.
Seconding this... the RAM control line failure error can be caused by a lot of things; it’s just that the IC59 one is the best documented one online, so it’s the one that shows up when you Google it :)

On my A5000 it was caused by four bad chips...not IC59 but the HC75 next to it, and also three of the RAM chips.

As IanS says, though, track damage is far more likely, so worth looking at first!
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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:33 pm

The new CMOS arrived today so I desoldered the old one, cleaned the area with white vinegar and IPA, checked continuity in the links before soldering in a socket and fitting the new CMOS. Still getting the &20101 POST flashing LEDs. :(

To date, I have replaced the zero ohm resistors L6-L14, checked continuity in the battery area, bridging the trace between pin 1 on the SK7 keyboard connector and the L7 resistor and replaced the CMOS chip. Each time I have cleaned the area with white vinegar and IPA and checked continuity of the area.

I know my SK7 keyboard ribbon and connector are corroded so I have some conductive electric paint and a replacement SK7 to try and address that but I was planning to target these once I had got past the POST &20101 error, assuming the error is not keyboard related.

Please can anyone tell me what R3 is? That took quite a bit of cleaning so may be damaged.
I am thinking I may need to remove IC4/IC5 and the RISCOS ROM sockets to see what is happening underneath but that is quite a lot of work and my soldering skills are being stretched to the limits!

Again, assuming the error is not keyboard related, I would think focus on the RISCOS ROM sockets first rather than the IC4/5?

Also:-
myelin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:53 am
On my A5000 it was caused by four bad chips...not IC59 but the HC75 next to it, and also three of the RAM chips.
Please can you advise how you established RAM chips had failed?

Thanks for the help.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by steve3000 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:10 pm

If RISC OS is flashing self-test codes at you, this is a good sign - most of the core bits and bobs are functioning :)

If you're not getting "CMOS unreadable" as one of the codes, then the CMOS RAM chip is OK, at least as far as it will allow you to boot. But as you've replaced this, it certainly won't be causing any trouble.

You say you have 2mb RAM fitted. Have you removed the RAM upgrade? If not, try removing it, as the fault could be a failed RAM IC on the upgrade.

Can you post a photo of the full PCB? It sounds like your A3000 has had some previous work done on it (to fit the ARM3), so a photo might help us spot any unusual changes that could be causing problems...

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by myelin » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:54 am

jpagen wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:33 pm
myelin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:53 am
On my A5000 it was caused by four bad chips...not IC59 but the HC75 next to it, and also three of the RAM chips.
Please can you advise how you established RAM chips had failed?
Using a makeshift POST debug adapter that lets you read out the detailed info reported by the power-on self test. In my case it gave me this:

Code: Select all

Data @ 2000000
Data-F FF000000
Data-P FF000000
The 'FF' at the start mean that the high eight bits (i.e. the chips that serve D31-28 and D27-24) are bad, or the data lines to them aren't connected up properly. I tested out the data lines and they seemed connected fine, and couldn't figure out any other reason for the chips to not be responding (as that byte of the data bus is definitely working on the CPU, otherwise it wouldn't be running code from ROM), so I desoldered them and put new ones in, which (plus some other tweaks) fixed the issue.
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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by sP1d3r » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:42 am

:shock: Resistors R3 & R7 are 180 Ohm.
I've watched a video of A3000 repair by 'Plan C' on Youtube that I thought was good, although getting a keyboard connector out without lifting traces would involve using a dremel with a mini grinding disc or similar to try to remove the plastic parts of the connector before trying to desolder the pins, I'd have thought.
The pcb could be damaged if the multi-tool 'skids', so be careful.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:39 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments.
sP1d3r wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:42 am
I've watched a video of A3000 repair by 'Plan C' on Youtube that I thought was good, although getting a keyboard connector out without lifting traces would involve using a dremel with a mini grinding disc or similar to try to remove the plastic parts of the connector before trying to desolder the pins, I'd have thought.The pcb could be damaged if the multi-tool 'skids', so be careful.
Yes I had seen the PlanC clip too. It was impressive how he managed to recover from such extensive damage which gave me hope. :) I removed the old Sk7 yesterday, removing the solder and bending the connector to fatigue the pins until they broke, allowing me to remove each pin one by one using a solder pump. Traces were fine underneath so I left the original Sk6.
myelin wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:54 am
Using a makeshift POST debug adapter that lets you read out the detailed info reported by the power-on self test. In my case it gave me this:
Thanks will check that out.
steve3000 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:10 pm
You say you have 2mb RAM fitted. Have you removed the RAM upgrade? If not, try removing it, as the fault could be a failed RAM IC on the upgrade.
yes removed that but made no difference. I will leave it disconnected until the machine boots.
steve3000 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:10 pm
Can you post a photo of the full PCB? It sounds like your A3000 has had some previous work done on it (to fit the ARM3), so a photo might help us spot any unusual changes that could be causing problems.
I had the ARM3 fitted by Watford Electronics in the early 90's. I took a picture on my phone so it is a little fuzzy but I can try and take a better one if this is unclear. Otherwise the machine is stock. I had fitted a PCATS graphics enhancer previously but I removed that when I installed RISCOS 3 due to compatibility issues so that is not relevant.
A3000_full.jpg
The other thing I tried this morning is putting in my old RISCOS2 ROMs to see if I could get any further but after changing the links required for the different ROM sizes, I just get a blank screen on a power-on reset.

I have got a lot going on at the moment so I would prefer to find someone to repair it if anyone knows a repair service? I am in Berkshire, UK

Thanks all!

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by sP1d3r » Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:13 pm

:?: I wonder if an Arm3 works with RO2.
I also wonder if the serial port gives any debugging output during boot up, probably not.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by sP1d3r » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:16 pm

:o I don't think that the RO3 roms are the right ones, I think they might be for a different computer.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:30 pm

sP1d3r wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:16 pm
I don't think that the RO3 roms are the right ones, I think they might be for a different computer.
Thanks for taking a look. I believe the roms are OK. I installed the roms myself in the mid 90's and still have the instructions that came supplied referencing the A3000.
sP1d3r wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:13 pm
I wonder if an Arm3 works with RO2.
Arm3 only runs at Arm2 speed on RO2 but in order to take advantage of the speed increase, I had to run an app from the Desktop that Watford Electronics supplied to enable the ARM3 cache. With RO3, the cache support was built in. :)

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by sP1d3r » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am

:-s So the only way that your motherboard has been modified for the ARM3 processor is that a PLCC socket has been soldered to the pads for the cpu pins?

Also I was wondering if you could tell me what the resistance measured from the hole for the positive battery terminal above R7 to the VIA next to R7 is? Good contact with the pcb pads is required for a meaningful value, it should be approximately 180 Ohms but as the solder looks degraded it could possibly be quite a lot more, to illustrate that good continuity is vital with pcb circuits.

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by steve3000 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 pm

Nice A3000, it looks very clean, certainly compared to some heavily battery damaged examples I've restored - so hopefully can make some progress here...

When the self-test error is flashed out, does the computer show a red border, and change to black after it completes flashing the code? Presumably it doesn't attempt to boot?
jpagen wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:30 pm
Thanks for taking a look. I believe the roms are OK. I installed the roms myself in the mid 90's and still have the instructions that came supplied referencing the A3000.
Your ROMS are fine. Standard RO3.1 set, all 4-ROM RO3.1 sets will work in any 4-ROM Archie (even the German RO3.19 set).

Do you still have your RISC OS 2 ROMs to hand? RO2 doesn't have a self-test, and will boot whatever state the RAM (or other hardware) are in, so it can help with error tracking, assuming it gets a bit further.

Otherwise, if you have an EPROM burner, you could burn a set of the RAM-test ROMs, which could help you pinpoint where this RAM error might be.
jpagen wrote:Arm3 only runs at Arm2 speed on RO2 but in order to take advantage of the speed increase, I had to run an app from the Desktop that Watford Electronics supplied to enable the ARM3 cache. With RO3, the cache support was built in. :)
Ah, yes I remember those days of loading the !Arm3 utility to speed up the computer :)

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:00 pm

sP1d3r wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am
So the only way that your motherboard has been modified for the ARM3 processor is that a PLCC socket has been soldered to the pads for the cpu pins?
I have had the machine since new
The following upgrades have been performed:-
-Serial port rom installed shortly after purchase
-Installation of the ARM 3 which involved desoldering the old ARM2
-Watford Electronics 2 MB RAM upgrade (recently removed to eliminate that being the cause of my recent boot issues)
-PCATS graphics enhancer to provide a 24 bit colour palette, uninstalled when RISCOS 3.11 ROMs installed due to compatibility issues.
-RISCOS 3.11 ROM
Apart from the ARM3 upgrade, all other upgrades were performed by myself.
The machine worked fine when I packed it away, probably around year 2003.
sP1d3r wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am
Also I was wondering if you could tell me what the resistance measured from the hole for the positive battery terminal above R7 to the VIA next to R7 is?
Just measured and it reads 182.5 Ohms. R3 is more corroded. Getting any sort of reading across R3 is difficult but when I do get a reading it is around 187 Ohms. Perhaps I need to replace R3?
steve3000 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 pm
Nice A3000, it looks very clean, certainly compared to some heavily battery damaged examples I've restored - so hopefully can make some progress here...
Thanks. That is reassuring! I have been thinking the fault may not be related to the battery leakage as the damage did not seem bad compared to some.
steve3000 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 pm
When the self-test error is flashed out, does the computer show a red border, and change to black after it completes flashing the code? Presumably it doesn't attempt to boot?
I am only using the monochrome output at the moment. My old monitor is still in storage. I do not see any messages though and the screen stays black after the flashes complete
steve3000 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 pm
Do you still have your RISC OS 2 ROMs to hand? RO2 doesn't have a self-test, and will boot whatever state the RAM (or other hardware) are in, so it can help with error tracking, assuming it gets a bit further.
yes tried the RISCOS 2 ROMs at the weekend. Just get the grey border (monochrome output so I would guess red!). No messages or supervisor prompt displayed.
steve3000 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 pm
Otherwise, if you have an EPROM burner, you could burn a set of the RAM-test ROMs, which could help you pinpoint where this RAM error might be.
I don't. Know where I can purchase? I found a discussion here viewtopic.php?t=12252

Thanks again for all the help!

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by steve3000 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:35 pm

jpagen wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:00 pm
yes tried the RISCOS 2 ROMs at the weekend. Just get the grey border (monochrome output so I would guess red!). No messages or supervisor prompt displayed.
Just to check, did you switch the ROM links back over to the RISC OS 2 settings? I would have hoped to see at least "RISC OS 1024K" on startup before a crash of some sort...?

And yes the RAM test ROMs are the ones you linked to. :)

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by jpagen » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:08 pm

steve3000 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:35 pm
Just to check, did you switch the ROM links back over to the RISC OS 2 settings? I would have hoped to see at least "RISC OS 1024K" on startup before a crash of some sort...?
Thanks for checking Steve3000! I changed the links for RISCOS 2 based on notes I made when I upgraded to RISCOS3-
Link positions I noted for Riscos2
LK17 position 1-2
LK18 position 1-2
LK19 position 2-3
LK20 position 2-3

I didn't see any message or hear the start-up "beep", just a grey border via the monochrome cable to the TV.

Should there be continuity from the L7 resistor to pin 1 on Sk7? It looks like there should be so I did try repairing the trace. I checked the circuit board diagram.

thanks again

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Re: A3000 power on test check error

Post by danielj » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm

Hello - we just got a request to activate PMs... I'm happy to do so, but it's genuinely really helpful if all troubleshooting goes on in public threads, then other people can benefit from reading it! :)

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