"Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by IanS » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:01 pm

myelin wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:38 pm
I have a choice here where to put the overhang -- either over the 5th column ROM to the left, or over the serial number to the right. If there's enough room to the right, that seems like the obvious choice as it doesn't block out the 5th column ROM socket (and I think it'll work out well for Joka80 too as it'll have the A5000 board overhanging above the roms rather than over their jumpers). Ian, can you confirm if this will fit in your A5000?
Looks like it should be ok.
IMG_20190107_225356_HDR.jpg

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:46 am

Excellent, thanks for checking that IanS!

Thank you also for the 4corn tip... I was using the version from the 3QD classic ROMs archive, which was indeed not 512kB long, and probably the bad one. My keyboard is a bit flaky, but holding R on boot finally got Arthur 1.20 started after a few tries — so I now have all the classic OS images working :)
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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by steve3000 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:18 am

myelin wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:46 am
so I now have all the classic OS images working :)
Great! Does RO3.19 work ok too? (No reason it shouldn't, but it is a but different, and the final official RISC OS release that ran pre-RiscPC)

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:31 pm

steve3000 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:18 am
myelin wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:46 am
so I now have all the classic OS images working :)
Great! Does RO3.19 work ok too? (No reason it shouldn't, but it is a but different, and the final official RISC OS release that ran pre-RiscPC)
Certainly does!
2019-01-08-risc-os-3-19.jpg
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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:42 pm

Status update: it looks like the A3000 takes a little while to start up before reading the ROM, which means the microcontroller on my board has time to start up and send the current flash bank ID to the CPLD before the ARM tries to execute out of it. I wouldn't be surprised if this varies between machines, so will have to see how well it works for others.

I tried getting the CPLD to output 0xe3a0f50d (mov pc, #0x3400000) on the data bus for all ROM reads while it's busy, in the hope that it would hold the system in reset (and give the MCU time to start up, if it's on the slow side), but that didn't seem to work. Or did I get the base address wrong and it should be 0x3800000?
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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by IanS » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:50 pm

myelin wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:42 pm
I tried getting the CPLD to output 0xe3a0f50d (mov pc, #0x3400000) on the data bus for all ROM reads while it's busy, in the hope that it would hold the system in reset (and give the MCU time to start up, if it's on the slow side), but that didn't seem to work. Or did I get the base address wrong and it should be 0x3800000?
Looks like it should be 0x3800000, based on this page where it describes saving data from a running machine. https://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/manual/romimage.html

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by SteveBagley » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:59 pm

myelin wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:42 pm
I tried getting the CPLD to output 0xe3a0f50d (mov pc, #0x3400000) on the data bus for all ROM reads while it's busy, in the hope that it would hold the system in reset (and give the MCU time to start up, if it's on the slow side), but that didn't seem to work. Or did I get the base address wrong and it should be 0x3800000?
Wouldn’t MOV PC, #0 make more sense since MEMC alters its state when it makes a first read from the actual ROM addresses?
When the RESET line is taken HIGH, MEMC initialises to the following state:
Memory Map

The ARM processor starts executing code from location 0000000H after RESET goes inactive. To ensure that the processor always finds valid code at this location (which is normally Logically mapped RAM), MEMC continually enables ROM.

To restore the normal memory map, the processor must first perform a memory access with the address lines A[25] and A[24] both LOW, and then perform a memory access with address line A[25] HIGH. These conditions are satisfied when the processor starts executing instructions from location OOOO00OH, and later jumps to the normal ROM space.

Note that a processor write operation should not be performed while ROM is continually enabled, or a data bus clash will occur.
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Last edited by SteveBagley on Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:35 am

IanS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:50 pm
Looks like it should be 0x3800000, based on this page where it describes saving data from a running machine. https://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/manual/romimage.html
Ah excellent. I've tried that and it still doesn't work, so I'm going to give it a go in Arculator to make sure it should theoretically work...
SteveBagley wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:59 pm
Wouldn’t MOV PC, #0 make more sense since MEMC alters its state when it makes a first read from the actual ROM addresses?
I considered that, but that would only work on power on... jumping to 0x3800000 also works if the processor is executing from ROM when a flash programming operation starts and the CPLD disconnects the flash from the bus. It should hopefully keep the processor repeatedly jumping back to 0x3800000 until it unlocks the flash and allows the processor to boot. The first instruction in the RO3 ROM is a branch into the ROM anyway, so I think it should work either way.

(That said, http://armconverter.com/hextoarm/ decodes the EAE00069 instruction as "b #FF8001AC" (I guess b #0x38001AC when you mask out everything above bit 26) when executed at 0, and "b #0x30001AC" when run at 0x3800000, so maybe it will only work when run from 0.)
Last edited by myelin on Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by Phlamethrower » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:39 am

myelin wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:35 am
(That said, http://armconverter.com/hextoarm/ decodes the EAE00069 instruction as "b #FF8001AC" (I guess b #0x38001AC when you mask out everything above bit 26) when executed at 0, and "b #0x30001AC" when run at 0x3800000, so maybe it will only work when run from 0.)
Yeah, B and BL encode the address as an offset rather than an absolute value.

Both "B 0x0" (if the assembly address is set to zero), or "SUB PC,PC,#8" should result in a position-independent instruction that branches to itself

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Re: A3000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:53 pm

I've tried it out in Arculator, and both ways seem to work there, so I can only assume something more complicated is going on on real hardware. It looks like RO3's initial branch (first four bytes of the ROM) expects to be running at 0, although if you run it at 0x3800000 it causes a prefetch abort by jumping into the IO controller space, which appears to result in a reset -- although I'm not quite following what's going on, so bear with me if I got that wrong :)

I'm having a go at writing a program that'll run as a ROM and can be compiled using the latest arm-none-eabi-gcc -- all it does is write the VIDC border register so far, but it seems to be compiling OK, and it didn't seem to have any problems with a simple C++ class.

Code here: https://github.com/google/myelin-acorn- ... bootloader
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:58 pm

Project update: after much messing around trying to fit a proper host-to-card communication system in the CPLD, I gave up and just hooked up a non-handshaked one bit GPIO type channel, which should be good enough for a bit-banged UART.

The bootloader program is coming along too; it will now start when I switch the machine on, initialize MEMC and VIDC, set the palette to the standard RISC OS one, draw some rainbows, then repeated read the RX register and plot that on the screen.

Here's what it looked like initially, before I realized that the MEMC used the VIDC DMA register as the refresh pointer, so I had to make it only refresh during flyback:
2019-01-22-arcflash-continuous-refresh-s.jpg
And here's how it looks now, with the MEMC and VIDC set up properly:
2019-01-26-arcflash-flyback-refresh-s.jpg
This is implemented using three read-sensitive locations in the ROM. Bit 0 of 0x3fffff8 is the RX register, while reading 0x3fffff0 sets TX low and reading 0x3fffff4 sets TX high.

What it's reading right now from the MCU is a pattern of 2ms high, 1ms low. It plots this four times in one row on the screen, i.e. one row takes ~12ms, and one pixel is ~18.75 us. Not amazing performance wise, but it'll be good enough to let a bootloader send commands back to the MCU ("select ROM 5 then reboot", etc) and read basic info from the MCU's flash (for saving and restoring CMOS settings).

Anyone interested in contributing code to do stuff like keyboard and CMOS data access, memory testing, memory size detection, text display, etc, please take a look at the code here (start.s and main.cc are the key files), make a note here of what you're working on, and hack away! Pull requests very very welcome :) Hopefully this can function as a new test ROM (that tests things that typically go wrong in 30 year old hardware) and not just a bootloader for my hardware.
Last edited by myelin on Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by steve3000 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:53 am

Brilliant progress! I've sent you a PM.

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:48 pm

Phew... more progress. Here's the Risc PC adapter board, which should just barely fit into my Risc PC 600 with i-cubed 600 combo Ethernet card, but will probably hit a capacitor on A30x0/A4000 boards, so probably won't work with them.

https://github.com/google/myelin-acorn- ... dapter_pcb

It's pretty awful looking right now; I'm going to spend a bit of time tidying up the traces and hopefully getting some more grounding in there (it's a 2-layer board), after which I'll send it and the A5000 adapter board off to JLC for fabrication.
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by IanS » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:58 pm

I'm suprised you did it as an adapter board. Wouldn't it be easier to do another board with all the chips on-board that plugs in directly to the RISC-PC.

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:08 am

IanS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:58 pm
I'm suprised you did it as an adapter board. Wouldn't it be easier to do another board with all the chips on-board that plugs in directly to the RISC-PC.
That’s the eventual plan, but the main boards are expensive to make, and I’m short on time (new father with a now two month old baby!), so adapters are all I can manage right now :) Trying not to spread myself too thin supporting multiple boards.

I did find the time to build two more of the main boards — would you like to be the first tester?
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:05 am

The bootloader works!

I can now turn on my A3000, see the bootloader come up and initialize the keyboard and display, hit 1-7 to select a 2MB flash bank, hit RESET, and be in my selected OS :D

This has taken forever — such a relief to see it finally working!

Heading to bed now... will post a video later :)
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by steve3000 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:19 am

myelin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:05 am
The bootloader works!

I can now turn on my A3000, see the bootloader come up and initialize the keyboard and display, hit 1-7 to select a 2MB flash bank, hit RESET, and be in my selected OS :D
Wow, that's excellent news! Well done! =D> =D> =D>

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by AndyMc1280 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:14 am

This looks fantastic.

If you need a tester I have:

1X Alpha A5000 with 8mb upgrade, but only 4mb works atm :(
1x 16MB R260 with FPA (when I can find the CPU card, took it out to clean socket as FPA 10 wasn't being seen)
1x Adelaide Arm 3 A3010 with FPA (also minus cpu card atm, was at a friends to fix a bit of wire)

Would particularly like ones for A5000 /R260 :mrgreen:

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:34 am

More progress... I have 1MB, 2MB, and 4MB flash banks working and selectable through the bootloader. Not enough room in the CPLD to also do 512kB banks, but with 16MB of flash that doesn’t matter so much. I have my test setup running with four 1MB banks (bootloader, A1 test rom, Arthur 1.20, RO2.01), two 2MB banks (RO3/3.11), and two 4MB banks (RO3.20 and a combo test rom).
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by jms2 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:55 am

Please add me to the list of interested people. I've been following this thread for a while to see how things would work out, and it looks really positive, well done!

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by sirbod » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:43 pm

Excellent progress, looking forward to see the finished item.

Being able to switch ROM is certainly going to help me test games - I'm currently having to keep several machines at different OS levels. I might finally be able to reduce the amount of kit I have down to a sensible level :lol:

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:54 am

The menu now works (pictured on my A3000) -

2019-03-05_arcflash_menu.jpg
I also managed to acquire a (possibly broken, but not too damaged looking) A5000, so I'll be able to test on there in a week or two.
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by steve3000 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:18 am

This looks really good!

Is there a way for software to force a reset once ROM set is selected? (somehow force MEMC to page ROM in at 0x0000000 and branch to 0?)

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by JonC » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:49 pm

Looks good, may be worth showing how much free memory there is as well.
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:51 pm

steve3000 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:18 am
This looks really good!

Is there a way for software to force a reset once ROM set is selected? (somehow force MEMC to page ROM in at 0x0000000 and branch to 0?)
I'm not aware of a way to do that in software. Hitting the reset button will do it, as will grounding the system reset line, although that requires soldering a lead to a chip on the motherboard, which not everyone will want to do.

For those who do want to hack up their motherboard, I'm adding an extra buffer onto the v2 board that'll let it do better power sensing (so it'll correctly reset into the bootloader even if you have the board connected to a host machine with USB), and be able to reset the machine. I think I can get it to trigger a power-on-reset too by grounding the appropriate line on the IOC (through a small resistor as it has to discharge the 10uf power on timing capacitor when it does so), although I haven't verified any of this yet. This will enable things like returning to the bootloader with a double-tap on the reset button.
JonC wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:49 pm
Looks good, may be worth showing how much free memory there is as well.
Indeed, will add that!
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by Sniffer » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:28 pm

Good stuff.

Put me down for 1 x A5000, 1xA3000.

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by Kazzie » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:32 pm

myelin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:51 pm
steve3000 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:18 am
This looks really good!

Is there a way for software to force a reset once ROM set is selected? (somehow force MEMC to page ROM in at 0x0000000 and branch to 0?)
I'm not aware of a way to do that in software. Hitting the reset button will do it, as will grounding the system reset line, although that requires soldering a lead to a chip on the motherboard, which not everyone will want to do.
I believe that the system reset line is present on the podule interface, so that may be an option (for those with podule connectors).
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by myelin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:45 pm

Kazzie wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:32 pm
I believe that the system reset line is present on the podule interface, so that may be an option (for those with podule connectors).
True. That makes it a bit easier to install -- just use a "dupont lead" that's male on one end (to poke into the podule socket on an A3000) and female on the other (for the Arcflash board). Might need a thinner cable for all the other machines with full-size podule sockets, but this should make the reset option popular on the A3000 at least.
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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by AndyMc1280 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:10 pm

myelin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:54 am
The menu now works (pictured on my A3000) -


2019-03-05_arcflash_menu.jpg

I also managed to acquire a (possibly broken, but not too damaged looking) A5000, so I'll be able to test on there in a week or two.
Very cool... now REALLY want at least one :mrgreen:

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Re: "Arcflash" A3000/A3xx/A4xx/A5xx/A5000 in-system programmable ROM -- any interest?

Post by IanS » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:12 pm

myelin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:54 am
The menu now works (pictured on my A3000) -
Impressive.
How much of the OS have you had to include/re-implement to do the text display?

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