10base-2 crossover?

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Trapper
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by Trapper » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:10 pm

EtherH

crj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by crj » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:22 pm

ajw99uk wrote:So I'd expect a direct 2-to-2 connection should just workTM
This bears repeating: if you want 10BASE2 to work, you must terminate each end of the cable. Simply connecting a cable between two computers cannot work.

You should earth one of the terminators. It's not a disaster if you earth neither; you should avoid earthing both.

While not as important as getting the termination right, you should also be sure to use 50-ohm-impedance cable. Video uses 75ohm-impedance, also often on BNCs, so incorrect cables abound!

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by Boydie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:59 am

crj wrote:This bears repeating: if you want 10BASE2 to work, you must terminate each end of the cable. Simply connecting a cable between two computers cannot work.
I'm pretty sure I've used it in the past without termination if I was doing something quick and was feeling lazy/couldn't find the terminators. Either direct BNC to card or with T-piece with one limb unconnected. And it worked.

Just shows that the laws of technology/physics don't stand a chance when faced with sheer ignorance!

As for whether it's possible, my first wide area networked machine was a heavily expanded A310 with Ether2 card, via an AUI to RJ45 transceiver. It wasn't too hard to configure (even I managed it). Can't remember how I did it though - it was 1995!
I later ran it on a home 10 base2 network without much problem. The only niggle with the Acorn cards which can catch the unwary is that you need to change a set of jumpers on the card according to which connector you want to use.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by ajw99uk » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:52 am

Trapper wrote:EtherH
Mine had 4.18 in ROM and universal boot has 4.33, same in ROL's !Boot for Adjust 4.39. These versions default to 10base2. DesignIT got up to 4.52 (with T/2 config). The 32bit module also has the config option, and is what now resides in the flashROM here.
Running RISCOS: A5000, A540, R140, RiscPC, RPi B
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by Trapper » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:10 pm

Does the 32bit module/drivers from ROOL still work on 26-bit RISC OS (3.70/4.02)?

I've been softloading 5.20 over 3.70 just for the hell of it, and the NIC obviously doesn't work.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by ajw99uk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Trapper wrote:Does the 32bit module/drivers from ROOL still work on 26-bit RISC OS (3.70/4.02)?
I can vouch for 26bit Adjust; ROM modules in the NIC are:

MbufManager 0.17 unplugged (ROL version 0.28 active)
CallASWI 0.11
SharedCLibrary 5.59
EtherH 4.59
Trapper wrote:I've been softloading 5.20 over 3.70 just for the hell of it, and the NIC obviously doesn't work.
Have you installed the softloadable EtherH 4.59 into !Boot? The notes from ROOL state compatibility for 3.60 onwards, provided you have SharedCLib 5.34 or later and CallASWI 0.02, i.e. install https://www.riscosopen.org/zipfiles/pla ... System.zip

There are Disc_install and ROM_install folders in the same zip, https://www.riscosopen.org/zipfiles/pla ... rivers.zip
Running RISCOS: A5000, A540, R140, RiscPC, RPi B
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number-one
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:06 pm

Hello I have an Archimedes A3010 RiscOS 3.10 without hard disk and battery.

I just bought an Atomwide (1993) Access+ Ethernet Mini Podule 10 base 2 from cjemicros.co.uk

I have not floppy with it

I have a CheetaHub Classic-2040 hub includes 8 RJ-45 ports and 1BNC port for connection to thin Ethernet (10BASE2).
IMG-0604.JPG
IMG-0603.JPG
On cold boot I have this error message
Warning: CMOS RAM for Ether3 in socket 1 defaulted
vlcsnap-error507.jpg
The Net icon is gray
IMG-0626.JPG
What is wrong ?

I would like tranfer files from a ftp server to the Archimedes.

EDIT: I have a Zip 100 // floppy drive.
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:03 pm

number-one wrote:Hello I have an Archimedes A3010 RiscOS 3.10 without hard disk and battery.

.....

What is wrong ?

I would like tranfer files from a ftp server to the Archimedes.
Unfortunately, in the A3010, you've chosen the RISC OS 3.1 machine that will be the most challenging to get on to a network. You'll have a much easier time using your ethernet podule with another RO 3.1 machine such as an A3000, A3020, or A4000.

Whilst RISC OS 3.1 can be entirely run from ROM, an ethernet setup does require loading additional software from disc (you basically need the UniBoot software here https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/UniBoot). To access ethernet, you'll need a machine with an ethernet podule, such as the one you have, but you also need some kind of hard disc solution to store the necessary networking software for loading when the machine boots. As you can only install one podule in an A3010, and as the A3010 doesn't come with a built in IDE disc interface, you're in a bit of a corner, I'm afraid.

It is possible to access the internal IDE controller in an A3010 - see here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12884 - but it's not a trivial undertaking.

The Net icon that you're seeing in the !Configure app is for Econet, rather than Ethernet. Unfortunately, once again, Econet is not easily installed in a A3010 (though it has been done at least once before) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... 101-125%5D.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:35 am

lcww1 wrote:.

The Net icon that you're seeing in the !Configure app is for Econet, rather than Ethernet. Unfortunately, once again, Econet is not easily installed in a A3010 (though it has been done at least once before) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... 101-125%5D.
You will actually see the net icon with ethernet installed as Acorn Universal Networking (access+) will chat to a level 4 server over ethernet, and also a raspberry pi running riscos on the same physical subnet. In theory it should be possible to get it working with full blown tcp/ip with the right boot setup on a floppy, but as the A3010 usually only has 1 or 2mb, you might find things getting rather tight in memory...

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:15 am

I have 4MB on my A3010.

See here Access+ at the end on network section

Access+ User Guide

There is a remote booting functionality (page 16) with my network card Access+ (ShareFS) built in firmware.

My archimedes try to boot on lan (I see the floppy drive led blink without floppy inside)

I have not another real riscos machine.
I would like share a drive / boot from an virtual riscos machine.
A3010 4 MB Ram

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:34 am

number-one wrote:I have 4MB on my A3010.
That makes things much happier! :)
See here Access+ at the end on network section

Access+ User Guide

There is a remote booting functionality (page 16) with my network card Access+ (ShareFS) built in firmware.
My archimedes try to boot on lan (I see the floppy drive led blink without floppy inside)
That's normal behaviour - the floppy drive led will blink when you turn it on, and it'll try and access the floppy even if there's nothing in there.
I have not another real riscos machine.
I would like share a drive / boot from an virtual riscos machine.
I think your best bet is to get a raspberry pi running riscos on the same subnet, then you can share drives form that back to the A3010, however, it looks like it should be possible to get RPCEmu to work in this regard using Ethernet bridging: https://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/manual/network.html - I have no experience of this, but the instructions look fairly straight forward!

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:55 am

(Also, have you done a power-on holding delete since you installed the podule? Just to reset the cmos? It might sort out that message you're getting).

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:04 am

http://www.iconbar.com/forums/viewthrea ... 287#112373
If the machine was originally set up to boot from a network. Now it is looking for the network and you need to press F12 and type in 'configure bootnet off '. Now, when you restart the machine it should return to the normal desktop.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... rGuide.pdf
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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:20 am

I don't understand what you're asking now?

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:24 am

I found the right model of my ethernet card It is an Acorn_AEH72_AccessA3000 and Acorn_ConnectingAcornAccessNw.pdf

How I can set ip address, subnet mask, default gateway on the Archimedes for corresponding with the Access+ server virtual machine ?
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:25 am

danielj wrote:
lcww1 wrote:
You will actually see the net icon with ethernet installed as Acorn Universal Networking (access+) will chat to a level 4 server over ethernet, and also a raspberry pi running riscos on the same physical subnet. In theory it should be possible to get it working with full blown tcp/ip with the right boot setup on a floppy, but as the A3010 usually only has 1 or 2mb, you might find things getting rather tight in memory...

d.
No, the Net icon is greyed out if there is no Econet module installed, or if the Acorn Internet stack hasn't been installed at boot (as is the case here) and even with the Internet stack booted, the Net icon will remain greyed out unless AUN has been specifically switched on in InetSetup - the Net icon won't show due to the mere presence of an ethernet (mini)podule. You're right though that the Net icon will show up, without an Econet module, if AUN is switched on in the InetSetup application - it'll even show up on RO 5 on a Pi if AUN is enabled in the Network configuration - but all this requires the presence of the internet software stack.

@number-one's original post asked about using FTP, a TCP/IP protocol, which requires the full Acorn Internet stack. However, it may well be possible to use Access+, an Acorn networking layer over ethernet, with fewer resources. Looking at the Access+ manual @number-one linked to above - there doesn't seem to be a specific requirement for a hard disc to use Access+ over ethernet, though I'm not entirely clear that it is possible to run Access+ from a floppy alone. The Access+ manual refers to an Acorn Access disc with a compressed archive of software - @number-one do you have such a disc? If not, then it looks as though it will be worth trying to track one down, as that disc probably contains the minimal software required to get this running, and will determine whether it's possible to do so from floppy drive(s) alone.

I just did a quick test using an iCubed etherlan 100 mini-podule in an A3020, along with a Ras pi running RO 5, both on the same ethernet network. So far, I have not been able to get the A3020 to talk to the pi using Access+ without using the full Internet stack in Uniboot. With the A3020 booting with Uniboot and the Acorn Internet stack, Access+ to the pi from the A3020 works flawlessly.

So, the question here seems to boil down to: can one run a minimal Internet stack, sufficient to allow Access+ to work, on RO3.1 when booting from a floppy? (Don't forget tho', that it's possible to have dual floppies on an A3010! http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 16&t=14874).

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:33 am

number-one wrote:I found the right model of my ethernet card It is an Acorn_AEH72_AccessA3000 and Acorn_ConnectingAcornAccessNw.pdf

How I can set ip address, subnet mask, default gateway on the Archimedes for corresponding with the Access+ server virtual machine ?

There's a good walk through of setting up the Acorn Internet stack here - http://www.mjpye.org.uk/networking/ - hopefully that will help, once you get to that stage :D

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:38 am

lcww1 wrote: The Access+ manual refers to an Acorn Access disc with a compressed archive of software - @number-one do you have such a disc?
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... Access.arc

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ss+Sup.arc
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:39 am

@lccw1 - gotcha :)
number-one wrote:I found the right model of my ethernet card It is an Acorn_AEH72_AccessA3000 and Acorn_ConnectingAcornAccessNw.pdf

How I can set ip address, subnet mask, default gateway on the Archimedes for corresponding with the Access+ server virtual machine ?
@number-one - without the universal boot sequence installed (which you can't really do without a hard disc), I'm not really sure :( - check the suggestions earlier in this thread about getting these set up without using the config program that's in uniboot. Hopefully someone will be along who has some better idea (the boot sequence stuff fears me).

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:42 am

I have a Zip 100 floppy (Acorn FS) with Zip floppy drive // on my Archimedes.
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:24 pm

@number-one - can you show us the output from the *ROMMODULES command - just the section at the end showing the modules loaded from Podule 1 (ie your ethernet card)?

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:37 pm

IMG-0631.JPG
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:58 pm

Ok, well that’s a little different from, and somewhat more recent than, what’s on my icubed podule rom.

I’ve had a look at the Acorn Access discs you linked to above - there’s not very much on them - a minimal !system folder, a !scrap folder, some printing software (which takes up most space on the discs), and the Access+ apps.

I tried using the Access+ app on my A3020 after starting up without booting from the hard disc, but I haven’t been able to get it to work - I think that my issue may be down to the versions of the network modules on my etherlan podule.

So, I wonder if you could somehow get the software from the Access floppies (I think you will probably only need the stuff on the Access+ Support disc) onto your A3010 so that you can try running the Access+ app? Am I correct that you don’t have a working floppy drive?

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by number-one » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:26 pm

I have a working real floppy drive / a working HXC Floppy Emulator (with HFE images on the SD Card)

I have also a Zip 100 MB floppy drive with Zip Acorn FS floppy or Zip PC Dos floppy.

With the ethernet minipodule plugged I have the "Discs" icon (right from floppy drive).
IMG-0626.JPG

I unarchived Acorn_Access+Sup.arc on my Archimedes.

I can't make anything more with he Access+ program (left from palette icon)
IMG-0633.JPG
IMG-0634.JPG
A3010 4 MB Ram

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Ok, well I think that is progress! And further than I’ve been able to get. Any Access+ shared discs on the network would show up under the Discs icon on the iconbar. It looks like the Access+ app is about sharing discs on the actual machine the app is running on, so if you were sharing something on the A3010 then it would show up in the greyed out Show menu item of the Access+ app (seen in your screenshot second from last in your post above) - so now you just need to get a RO Pi set up, and see whether you can communicate over ethernet using Access+.......

It does seem clear from the AUN manager’s guide http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 85#p200648 that it is, in principle, possible to set up a ROM based client AUN network station, but the details of how this is achieved are not altogether clear to me from the documentation.....but from what I can tell, you may have done enough for this to work :?:

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:30 pm

This document http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... AN/261.pdf, however, states:
It is not possible to use an AUN Client Boot ROM successfully on a standard TCP/IP network since the software in the ROM uses AUN-specific addressing conventions.
So I’m now thinking that you are actually going to have to get the Internet TCP/IP stack loaded somehow, if you’re to get your A3010 talking to a RO Ras pi :(

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:05 pm

The TCP/IP stack is there, in Freeway/ShareFS. It should spot another machine on the same subnet without you having to do anything much extra:
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/3993

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:34 pm

I've attached the Acorn Access thin ethernet instructions to this post.

d.
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AcornAccess.zip
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by lcww1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:55 pm

danielj wrote:The TCP/IP stack is there, in Freeway/ShareFS.
I think it’s just the AUN bit in there, not the full TCP/IP stack - hence the problems here - because only the AUN networking code is present, the AUN ROM boot machine necessarily ends up with an AUN type ip address of the type 1.×.y.z/255.0.0.0 - as described in the ROOL forum, but that isn’t going to be easy to use on most home networks - or am I missing something?

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:05 pm

So, in that case, run RPCEmu in bridged mode, set it up just as AUN, it should take a 1.x.x.x address for itself with no gateway, and then your Arc running AUN should be able to see it as long as you're on the same physical subnet? :?

Worth a shot, anyway.

(I think the whole stack resides in the Internet module?, but you still need a load of config to get it to start talking...)

d.

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