Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Arc/RPCs, peripherals, RISCOS operating system & ARM kit eg GP2x, BeagleBoard
RobC
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by RobC » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:29 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:On their way, Rob . . .
Cheers - I'll let you know when they arrive.

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by aotta » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:35 pm

I am afraid the original project will never get progress... But i have just finished the porting to arduino of the apple ii smartport emulator, and i am quite sure it may be done for emulating a3000 ide podule too... I start studying! ;)

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:36 pm

aotta wrote:I am afraid the original project will never get progress...
Oh yes it will :D - Rob has already sorted out one of the PLDs - the second is registered - so just needs looking at in a different way. I'll get there in the end - just be patient 8) - it's not been 30 years yet!

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by aotta » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:44 pm

Really? if RobC is working in the project, i can believe it... i bought one of his Nula for my Master and it's a masterpiece!
anyway, the emulation on arduino seems a good alternative to me... i'll investigate about the possibility, starting from emulator that supports ICS IDE in software and that are available with source code in C language

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by VectorEyes » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:43 am

Just wondering whether there's been any progress on Risc PC IDE interfaces recently? I just saw a Baildon Arcin v6c go for £70 on eBay!

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:52 pm

VectorEyes wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:43 am
Just wondering whether there's been any progress on Risc PC IDE interfaces recently? I just saw a Baildon Arcin v6c go for £70 on eBay!
Discussions at Cambridge . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by Trapper » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:07 am

VectorEyes wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:43 am
Just wondering whether there's been any progress on Risc PC IDE interfaces recently? I just saw a Baildon Arcin v6c go for £70 on eBay!
Whoops! That was me!

I've seen them go for well over £100 and they are only getting rarer - bit of an investment!

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:28 am

Update (at last) . . .

I've now been working on the recovery of the 2 PLDs, on and off, for the last week (Mrs H is away for 2 weeks in November :D :oops: ) and, apart from the lost file shenanigans I seem to be making progress.

Although RobC recovered the contents of IC1 (attached) I've decided to see if I can verify this using my own hardware and software. Then I can be more confident of any findings for IC3.

I eventually got the hardware working and saved the data in Address - Data format: 10 bit of address and 8 bit of data (ignoring bit 7). The data collection was carried using an Electron with MRB (Turbo and Shadow mode) and AP5 fitted. Using User-Port B and Clock Out from CB1 with Data being shifted out from CB2 into a serial to parallel shift register (2 x 74LS164). This gave me the 10 bits for the inputs of the PLD. The 7 bits of PLD output were read via the 6522 data input.

Next step (I could have done this in the same program, however, decided to break it down into manageable segments) was to load the data into 2 x arrays Address and Data. Next, (and this is where I am now) is to sort into PLD Output nodes e.g. run through the Data and search for address that have each node valid - all address that have bit 0 = 0 - addresses that have bit 1 = 0 etc. I'll also have to take the OE pin into account. I think the Clock-in can be ignored for IC1.

Then I can sort through the results and hopefully end up with what's needed.

@RobC: I've downloaded your pa.exe program. What format of data does it require?

More later.
IdeAIN V6C IC1.pld.zip
RobC's recovered IC1 PLD data.
(1.52 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by RobC » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:28 am
@RobC: I've downloaded your pa.exe program. What format of data does it require?
Hi Dave,

The program isn't mine - it comes from here. It's from his post on reading secured PALs.

I built the adapter to read the PAL as an EPROM and then used the PA software to analyse the bin/rom file. The software takes the binary "EPROM" dump and generates a text file in CUPL format as output.

Sorry that I haven't had more time to progress this further but, unfortunately, I've been busy with lots of other things recently...

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:56 pm

RobC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm
The program isn't mine - it comes from here. It's from his post on reading secured PALs.
Ah! Thanks Rob . . .
RobC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm
I built the adapter to read the PAL as an EPROM and then used the PA software to analyse the bin/rom file. The software takes the binary "EPROM" dump and generates a text file in CUPL format as output.
So the 'dump' would just be data from the output - no addresses . . . I believe you set-up the inputs and output within the program - but not run it yet, so guessing! I may give that a go
RobC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm
Sorry that I haven't had more time to progress this further but, unfortunately, I've been busy with lots of other things recently...
No problem - about time I actually did something . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by RobC » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:05 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:56 pm
So the 'dump' would just be data from the output - no addresses
Yes - you just read the PAL as a 27C020 and then pass the "ROM" image to the PA software as a binary file.

In terms of describing inputs and outputs and giving signal names, I can't remember the syntax, but this is what the PA.exe instruction section says:
Analysis software

Running the executable (pa.exe) from the command line shows the following output:

usage: pa [-options]
Available options:
-force : Force processing of registered PAL dumps.
-alloe : Force OE equations to be listed for all pins.
-polarity : Use specified bitmask to force output polarity.
-oepolarity : Use specified bitmask to force output enable polarity.
-ignore : Use specified bitmask to ignore processing outputs.
-signal : Specify user-supplied pin names.
-verbose : Print informational messages.

Type `pa help <option>' for more information on that option.
Results are written to stdout.
For example assuming you have binary output called "paldata.bin" from your device programmer. You can analyze it by typing:

pa paldata.bin > paldata.txt
... and the CUPL output will be written to "paldata.txt". The output is intended for use with Atmel WinCUPL so you may have to edit the source to use it with other HDL software or minimization tools.
I ran some other software to simplify the equations but can't remember what I used. It might have been Logic Friday but I'm away from the machine I used at the moment...

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:16 pm

RobC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:05 pm
Yes - you just read the PAL as a 27C020 and then pass the "ROM" image to the PA software as a binary file.
So that's what I've decided to do. However, instead of trying to read the part on my Programmer (seemingly, may not anyway!) I've put together a quick and dirty adapter that conforms to the requirements in the (RobC's) link above. Instead of using a programmer to do the reading, it connects to the user port. I have a program (needs a little tweak!) that will do the job. The PCB will accept a DIL or PLCC ZIF socket adapter.

The addresses (A0 > A17) are clocked out of CB2 by CB1 into the 3 x 74LS164 (serial to parallel shift registers). The data is then read from the GAL outputs into PB0 > PB7.

I'll order 10 of these. So if anyone would like one - just let me know.

If someone could carry out a sanity check, please.
Schematic.JPG
PCB.JPG

Dave H :D

GAL16V8 Adaptor 17-10-18 - Schematic.zip
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by IanS » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:45 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:16 pm

I'll order 10 of these. So if anyone would like one - just let me know.

If someone could carry out a sanity check, please.
I'll take one if there is one spare.

Seems to be a slightly odd order of address lines out of the shift registers, would be better if you re-ordered to make the shifting out of the value by your program easier.

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:04 pm

IanS wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:45 pm
I'll take one if there is one spare.
On the list Ian . . .
IanS wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:45 pm
Seems to be a slightly odd order of address lines out of the shift registers, would be better if you re-ordered to make the shifting out of the value by your program easier.
Yes, I know . . . Just copying what I already have working on the breadboard. It seemed to track OK too!

I'll do some work on the software and post it here.

Dave H :D
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:53 pm

PCBs ordered for the PLD to 27C020 adaptor. I've also been working on the software to drive this. Currently you can select between BASIC with a display of address and data, BASIC without address and data and I'm now working on a m/c option - need it for speed! Option 1 takes over 5 hours :shock: option 2 under 2 hours - I'm hoping the m/c option will bring it down to under 30min . . . [-o<

PCB update: Getting there . . .
ARCIN6VC1.jpg
Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by IanS » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:34 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:53 pm
PCBs ordered for the PLD to 27C020 adaptor. I've also been working on the software to drive this. Currently you can select between BASIC with a display of address and data, BASIC without address and data and I'm now working on a m/c option - need it for speed! Option 1 takes over 5 hours :shock: option 2 under 2 hours - I'm hoping the m/c option will bring it down to under 30min . . . [-o<
What percentage of the time is re-ordering the address to shift it out in an odd order?

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:11 pm

IanS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:34 pm
What percentage of the time is re-ordering the address to shift it out in an odd order?
Hmmm! I'm not sending it out in an odd order! Well, if I am, it's not deliberate! I split the address into high-byte mid-byte and low-byte then send to the shift register in low, mid and high byte order. I set-up the register to shift-out using the 1MHz clock.

I could probably speed-up the "BASIC without display" by not using procedures e.g. unrolling it all into the REPEAT/UNTIL loop. The m/c should be a lot faster! I may need to add some 'wait' to allow the shift register to clock-out before I send the next byte. But in the end I'm only doing two ICs! So even it it takes 24 hours . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by IanS » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:12 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:11 pm
IanS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:34 pm
What percentage of the time is re-ordering the address to shift it out in an odd order?
Hmmm! I'm not sending it out in an odd order! Well, if I am, it's not deliberate! I split the address into high-byte mid-byte and low-byte then send to the shift register in low, mid and high byte order. I set-up the register to shift-out using the 1MHz clock.
Not having done much with the 6522 in the past, I'd forgotten about the serial shift register mode. I was assuming you having to manuall toggle each bit out in basic.
daveejhitchins wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:11 pm
I could probably speed-up the "BASIC without display" by not using procedures e.g. unrolling it all into the REPEAT/UNTIL loop. The m/c should be a lot faster! I may need to add some 'wait' to allow the shift register to clock-out before I send the next byte. But in the end I'm only doing two ICs! So even it it takes 24 hours . . .
It's an interesting PCB, but as you sound like you have a breadboard version up and running, won't you have got all the results you need before the PCB turns up?
I assume you are doing this on your trusty Electron, anything to be gained by doing it on a beeb, or an Arc? (user port podules did exist, I unfortunately don't have one)

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:39 pm

IanS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:12 pm
It's an interesting PCB, but as you sound like you have a breadboard version up and running, won't you have got all the results you need before the PCB turns up?
I've just had a message from DHL telling me the boards are on their way :D I only had the bread-board set-up with 2 x 74LS164 - so couldn't take a full read. I now have more 164s so should be able to run it straight away. I'll post the results, when done.
IanS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:12 pm
I assume you are doing this on your trusty Electron, anything to be gained by doing it on a beeb, or an Arc? (user port podules did exist, I unfortunately don't have one)
Certainly am using the Electron - with AP5 and BeebSCSI fitted and, of course, a MRB in Turbo and Shadow mode. My Master takes up too much room on my workbench!

Dave H :D
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:12 pm

PCB layout complete - just need to add the silkscreen.
ARCIN6VCT1.jpg
ARCIN6VCB1.jpg
ARCIN6VC3D1.jpg

Dave H :D

Edit: Sorry, really crappy images - I'll get replacements, tomorrow.
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm

Final Update - PCB ready for prototypes :D

Attached PDFs of:

Schematic - updated!
PCB top tracking
PCB bottom tracking
3D of PCB top
3D of PCB bottom
3D of PCB angle 1
3D of PCB angle 2

Today I added PLCC sockets - seemed a good idea! Note the schematic update!

Dave H :D

ARCIN V6C 31-10-18 - Schematic.PDF
(702.37 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
PCB Print Top.PDF
(532.39 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
PCB Print Bot.PDF
(473.84 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
PCB 3D Print Top.PDF
(1.21 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
PCB 3D Print Bot.PDF
(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 1 time
PCB 3D Print Ang1.PDF
(568.36 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
PCB 3D Print Ang2.PDF
(534.09 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by IanS » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:34 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm
Final Update - PCB ready for prototypes :D
I'm confused by the LED drive circuitry. Should R30 connect to GND rther than +5V. What is TR1 doing with "activity-1"?

Edit:
Shouldn't these pins be connected to something else?
t1.png
T1 signal?
Last edited by IanS on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:02 pm

IanS wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:34 pm
I'm confused by the LED drive circuitry. Should R30 connect to GND rther than +5V. What is TR1 doing with "activity-1"?
Thanks for checking, Ian . . . Appreciated =D>

You're correct, on both counts! TR1 collector should be connected to TR2s collector and R30 should be to ground - Both now fixed - But not in time for the prototypes, however, that's what they're for, isn't it?
IanS wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:34 pm
Edit:
Shouldn't these pins be connected to something else?
That looks like a typo on the schematic - IC6 pin 17 is nT1 - so should pins 19 on IC4/5 - current schematic shows T1
I also noticed that pin A32 on PL1 wan't connected - should be to +5V. All corrected now.

Dave H :D
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:57 am

First: Attached is an updated schematic with all the above changes added. Not too much to change on the prototypes. I'll be able to test with the LED circuit unpopulated, initially, and just one link for the T1/nT1 error.
ARCIN V6C Issue2 01-11-18 - Schematic.PDF.zip
(172.07 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

Next: Update on the PLD decoding. I now have PCBs (let me know if you like one. I'll have them at Leicester.). I've been testing the software and believe it's all working. So next is to decode a known PLD (I'll use the latest ABR).
IMG_2929.jpg
IMG_2928.jpg
These ZIF sockets are low cost (from eBay) so I haven't bothered socketing them!

Dave H :D

Edit: The PLCC socket is of the "Dead-Bug" type e.g. the device is fitted in upside down!
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:58 pm

Today I've tested the adaptor with my software and everything seem to be OK. I've crunched the BASIC program and now the run takes just over the hour. Gives you time to do all sorts of things :D

I've run both of the PLDs (IC1 and IC6) through the system and attached the files. I won't have time to run them through the Windows software until Sunday - So if anyone want to have a go. . . . On Sunday I'll read the ABR PLD and check the results with that first.

Dave H :D

PLDDATAIC1.zip
(7.04 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
PLDDATAIC6.zip
(1.98 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:07 am

Here's the BASIC program I'm using to 'scan' the PLDs. It still needs some work e.g. I need to add a m/c section for faster scanning - no rush for that, however!

PLD-Read.ssd.zip
(3.49 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

Dave H :D

Edit: Forgot to add - although the code is in there to work with Electron and BBC - The machine detection code isn't in there, as yet. You my also see a double Read from the the User Port B - A single read doesn't read the correct data! Don't know why! - That's one question for Leicester :D
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:58 pm

PCBs have arrived . . .
ARCIN V6C Issue 1 Front.jpg
ARCIN V6C Issue 1 Back.jpg

Had ago with the "Reading Secured PLDs' and analysis 'software', yesterday. Hmmm! From the command prompt: pa does indeed respond as shown in the article, however, the pa help (any option) doesn't, saying 'Unknown Option'!
IMG_2993.jpg
Another investigation at Leicester . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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IanS
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Re: Baildon Electronics IDE Interfaces - Replication

Post by IanS » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:41 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:58 pm
Had ago with the "Reading Secured PLDs' and analysis 'software', yesterday. Hmmm! From the command prompt: pa does indeed respond as shown in the article, however, the pa help (any option) doesn't, saying 'Unknown Option'!

IMG_2993.jpg

Another investigation at Leicester . . .

Dave H :D
Try it without the hyphen "-"
pa-signals.PNG
e.g.
pa-signals-ex.PNG

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