Adventures with ARM3s and FPAs !

discuss the archimedes & risc pc, peripherals and risc os/risc os on pi
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IanJeffray
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Adventures with ARM3s and FPAs !

Post by IanJeffray »

Very sadly, the ARM3 board is not mine, but "on test" from AndyMc1280 as I try and resurrect his beasty Adelaide A3010.
But I just thought I'd post the picture anyway as it draws together so many cool components (that's IanS's great new 4MB board, and myelin's bogglesome ArcFlash)
(Andy- the ARM3 works fine on a brief test, not tested FPA yet)
A305 motherboard, with lots of upgrades!
A305 motherboard, with lots of upgrades!
Last edited by IanJeffray on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

Sexy teapots! :twisted:

I had half a worry something was fuxxored with the card, especiallywhen you said "ooo manky pin" :oops: . Although if it WAS the ARM 3 card then it didn't explain why the A3010 didn't do anything with the ARM 2 either.

It's rather fast eh? :mrgreen:

Edit: - Showoff =D> =D> :lol:
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SarahWalker
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by SarahWalker »

Benchmarks pls!
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IanJeffray
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

SarahWalker wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:27 am
Benchmarks pls!
Wilco. And the A3010 with this Arm3. And again when we boost the RAM to 16MHz - it will be interesting to see the impact of 8/12/16 MHz.

Andy: the ‘manky pin’ was carefully cleaned of its solder residue before this test ;)
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

:D

Well if it goes well at 16 mhz.... ahem 20 ? :wink: but the A3010 needs to "work" first.... :mrgreen:
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

ImagePS I had 17 ish mips out the A3010 standard with only 30mhz OC.

Something to compare with.
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

This thread's just going to be faffing ... I felt I had to do this, Andy:
IMG_5686.JPG
IMG_5687.JPG
R140, 8MB, 30MHz ARM3, FPA... RISCiX looks ok... but the X11 login dialog is all to heck (buttons missing/mis-placed). Not sure how/why yet, very weird. Will have to see if Arculator gives the same behaviour when it sees and FPA - very weird indeed!
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

Have at it - beats it sitting in a borked A3010 :lol: Minda and get the latest FPEMulator.... whatever version that is.... try running it before you start iX ?
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm
Have at it - beats it sitting in a borked A3010 :lol: Minda and get the latest FPEMulator.... whatever version that is.... try running it before you start iX ?
FPEmulator 4.02 is what I've got (standard "FPE400" file in !System).
BUT
When loading this, all FP is now stuffed. Even !Draw doesn't ... draw.
I'm forced to conclude something's "up" with the FPA.
May I remove it and shove it in my stock 25MHz board to see if it's dead, or just not happy at 30. ?
TheSameButDifferent.jpg
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

IanJeffray wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:03 pm
FPEmulator 4.02 is what I've got (standard "FPE400" file in !System).
BUT
When loading this, all FP is now stuffed. Even !Draw doesn't ... draw.
I'm forced to conclude something's "up" with the FPA.
May I remove it and shove it in my stock 25MHz board to see if it's dead, or just not happy at 30. ?
It's not dead - I've been here before see: viewtopic.php?t=15847

Standard 4.02 is bugged to Fudge and does not support the FPA10 properly. It'll work, but you need newer FPEmulator....... FPE 400 is not the jobby.
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:36 pm
Standard 4.02 is bugged to Fudge and does not support the FPA10 properly. It'll work, but you need newer FPEmulator....... FPE 400 is not the jobby.
Oh good lord. Where's the newer? I have a softload 4.19. (Can't even nick the one from the 4.39 ROM as it's only 4.10 !)

EDIT: And 4.19 exhibits the same behaviour. as 4.02 :(
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/common

ROOL maintains !System for older machines..... grab a new download! :lol:
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

Also, did I install it the right way round ? :oops:
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:45 pm
https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/common

ROOL maintains !System for older machines..... grab a new download! :lol:
I'd much prefer to keep things "of their day". I can't really believe that 4.02 is that broken - I'm pretty sure that's what I was using on my A540 with FPA. An 4.10/4.19 work on the 7500FE in my A7000+... so ...

EDIT: Grabbed 4.37 from ROOL... still doesn't work. This FPA is simply not working. Not in RISC OS, not in RISC IX. Can I pop it in the 25MHz board for a test?
AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm
Also, did I install it the right way round ? :oops:
I believe so - I checked that right away ;)
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

balls.
Ok let me go see how my 260 is set up. I'll check versions and get back to you.

Moron question, Does the R140 not have stunted fpa support ? They were designed with a Podule in mind ?

Looks like I cooked the FPA (balls x 5000) :oops:
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

The ARM3 on its own, btw, gives 14MIPS in ArmSI. So 17MIPS for the same module on an Adelaide A3010 purely due to the faster 12MHz RAM is quite a lift.
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:26 pm
Moron question, Does the R140 not have stunted fpa support ? They were designed with a Podule in mind ?
The FPA is purely on the ARM3 card - I don't think it's relevant what motherboard it's plugged in to -- the CP lines should (?!) only be tracked to the FPA, rahter than anywhere on the motherboard. Maybe time to buzz-out this Simtec card and check!
AndyMc1280 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:26 pm
Looks like I cooked the FPA (balls x 5000) :oops:
Hold yer horses - allow me to test it at 25MHz? :)
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by steve3000 »

FPA is definitely the correct way round.

Try FPE v4.03 which I use for FPA testing, I posted it here: viewtopic.php?p=309700#p309700

What’s the patch wire on Andy’s ARM3 board?
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

steve3000 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:37 pm
FPA is definitely the correct way round.

Try FPE v4.03 which I use for FPA testing, I posted it here: viewtopic.php?p=309700#p309700
That doesn't work either. Same behaviour. I'm not really surprised.

Andy - let me pull the FPA and drop it on the 25MHz board? It's a minimal-risk job, and then we'd know if it's the 30MHz clock (or board) that's the issue, or if the chip itself is fubar.
steve3000 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:37 pm
What’s the patch wire on Andy’s ARM3 board?
ALE. For use on an A3010. Just goes to a pullup on other machines so should be no fuss.
See https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... processor/
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by AndyMc1280 »

ok pop it in your board.

Focking R260 sulking with its FPA10 now as well :lol: :lol:
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 am
ok pop it in your board.
Bish bosh. FPA works a charm at 25MHz. Module version 4.02, 4.03, 4.19 all fine. RiscIX fine (no more weird login window).

I'd also just finished very closely examining the board under the microsocope - I can't see any board fault.

So I still hold that it's the 30MHz that the FPA doesn't like. I'll put the FPA back and test it in other machines if you like - A3000, A420, but I don't expect any different result.

Now you've got two choices - stick with a unique 30MHz ARM and no FPA... or drop the ARM down to 25MHz (or less than 30) and have an equally/more unique FPA'd system, albeit not as fast for most things.
Last edited by IanJeffray on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

Hold the front page! As I was returning the FPA to the 30MHz board I noticed it was pretty slack in the socket - too easy to insert. So I removed it again, cleaned down all the contacts and gently eased them inward a little, so they'd grip the FPA more.

And...
30MHz_FPA.png
=D>
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

For reference, here's the ArmSI file from my old A540 with its 33MHz ARM/FPA... and the R140 with 25MHz ARM and your FPA chip, from earlier. 206Kflops vs 170KFlops vs 152KFlops. Now, I've no idea how much of that boost is going to be due to the 12MHz RAM - on the A540 - the ops still need fetching, which must be included in these timings - we'll see when I get the Adelaide sorted!!
24MHz_FPA_R140.png
33MHz_FPA_A540.png
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Re: A305, 4MB, ArcFlash, 30MHz ARM3+FPA

Post by IanJeffray »

IanJeffray wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:37 am
I've no idea how much of that boost is going to be due to the 12MHz RAM - on the A540
Well if we assume the 8MHz RAM machine's 25MHz and 30MHz FP figures would continue scale linearly to 33MHz, then we can see there's a significant uplift for 33MHz on a 12MHz memory machine...
plot.png
Gotta get this Adelaide ticking now to get more deta here :D
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Re: Adventures with ARM3s and FPAs !

Post by AndyMc1280 »

Ian I love you :lol:

Nightmares about borked fpa10.

Also, trying to fettle my R260.... powered up first time in 18 months.... All ran fine first time, except the F***ing FPA10 :oops: :lol:

I suspect a clean and reseat is in order..... 8)
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