IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

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RichardP
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IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by RichardP » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:40 am

Acorn machines are fussy on IDE->xxxx adapters, this thread was created so that a list of what works and doesnt can be compiled.
s-l500.jpg
Machine : A3020 (Standard IDE interface)
Observations : SD card is recognised and !HDForm formats something sucessfully
Result : Although the process is successful, the system is unable to read the SD card.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/44-Pin-Male- ... 2749.l2648

Image of Interface chipset under sticker
2018-11-08-083242.jpg

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:59 am

Part of the problem is that the Acorn IDE Interface is not fully compliment to the modern IDE “standard”. And not all IDE devices completely comply to the modern IDE “standard”...

Mark

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by vanpeebles » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:04 am

It would need to state what it's connected to as well :) The rapIDE in my RPC was always far more tolerant of stuff than the onboard sockets.
Last edited by 1024MAK on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to remove the [flash] tags.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 pm

There are several issues that cause IDE devices to fail, all of which can be resolved if you take a look at this thread.
  1. ADFS was based around the first IDE standard, which stipulated a DRQ timeout of 500ns, this was removed in later revisions. The patched ADFS 2.68 will resolve this issue
  2. Bulk data transfers can cause issues, the patched ADFS resolves this by restricting transfers to 1 block at a time
  3. Later IDE standards do not assert the 16bit line as it was removed from the standard, this can be corrected by pulling -IOCS16 low
  4. The NIC on the RPC will fail if two SD cards are used as the Ready line needs to be pulled low, this can be corrected with a diode
While diagnosing the various issues, I tested over 50 devices (CF/SD/IDE/SATA) that had previously failed and all worked with the above fixes.
Last edited by sirbod on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:25 pm

Well done that man, good work =D>

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by jms2 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:16 pm

sirbod wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 pm
There are several issues that cause IDE devices to fail, all of which can be resolved
I wish I'd taken more notice of that thread at the time, but I think what distracted me was the reference to disk error numbers at the beginning. I never got any disc errors when trying CF cards on my A3000, instead everything just went crazy!

The HCCS card has its own IDEFS, so presumably ADFS version 2.68 isn't an option for that?

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:51 am

jms2 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:16 pm
what distracted me was the reference to disk error numbers at the beginning
I should probabably start a new thread at some point, with the concise detail from that thread and get an admin to pin it. HD issues repeatedly come up and certainly as far as ADFS goes, I think we've resolved all the previous incompatibility issues. The next step, which I still haven't got round to doing is to create a cheap in-line adapter to correct the hardware issues.

As an offshoot, I also looked at creating RISC OS 3.20 with the fixes in ROM, but that brought a whole new list of problems to solve due to static linking to CLib and lack of ROM builds for many key Modules.
jms2 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:16 pm
The HCCS card has its own IDEFS, so presumably ADFS version 2.68 isn't an option for that?
HCCS appears to work with more devices, so it may have other incompatibilities. Someone needs to go to the lengths I and others did with ADFS to identify the issues and figure a way to fix them.

The first step would be to collect devices that fail and confirm that don't work with the latest HCCS Module.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by jms2 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:55 am

I never did quite understand the difference between ADFS and IDEFS. Presumably the difference was that ADFS on earlier machines supported ST506 drives but not IDE, whereas later versions of ADFS included IDE support as well.

I would imagine that reverse engineering the iDEFS would be very difficult. I wonder how different the hardware is compared to the Acorn interface though - or vice versa, ie could the HCCS driver work on an Acorn interface? Presumably not, as a later version of the HCCS rom that I have refuses to work with my interface, suggesting that each piece of software is closely tied to one hardware configuration only.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by RichardP » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:13 pm

IDE->CF
cf.jpg
Machine : A3020 (Built-in IDE)

Works with a 32MB CF card out the box..

Does not work with a 16GB CF card (Error 23)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laptop-44-Pi ... 2749.l2648
Last edited by RichardP on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by danielj » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:51 pm

IDE-CF adaptors are passive - they're literally just changing the size of the connector to CF-size (CF is basically an IDE interface). It'll be the specific 32GB card that gets on with the unpatched ADFS and the 16GB one that doesn't. It's very very hit-and-miss, so using the advice in Jon's post: posting.php?mode=reply&f=16&t=16000#pr219871 is really the only way to make sure things work.

d.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by RichardP » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:37 pm

sirbod wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 pm
There are several issues that cause IDE devices to fail, all of which can be resolved if you take a look at this thread.
  1. ADFS was based around the first IDE standard, which stipulated a DRQ timeout of 500ns, this was removed in later revisions. The patched ADFS 2.68 will resolve this issue
  2. Bulk data transfers can cause issues, the patched ADFS resolves this by restricting transfers to 1 block at a time
  3. Later IDE standards do not assert the 16bit line as it was removed from the standard, this can be corrected by pulling -IOCS16 low
  4. The NIC on the RPC will fail if two SD cards are used as the Ready line needs to be pulled low, this can be corrected with a diode
While diagnosing the various issues, I tested over 50 devices (CF/SD/IDE/SATA) that had previously failed and all worked with the above fixes.
I replaced my CF, now I get the -20 error. I have the patch but no idea what to do with it. (read : I am clueless! what to do with the patch file)

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm

RichardP wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:37 pm
I have the patch but no idea what to do with it.
If you're talking about the pre-patched ADFS 2.68 - just run it.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by RichardP » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:42 pm

sirbod wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm
RichardP wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:37 pm
I have the patch but no idea what to do with it.
If you're talking about the pre-patched ADFS 2.68 - just run it.
Its being copied from a DOS disk .. should the permissions be set to something?

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:07 pm

RichardP wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:42 pm
Its being copied from a DOS disk .. should the permissions be set to something?
If you've extracted it on a PC, you'll need to set the filetype to "Module" before running it - Middle mouse click on the file and select "File 'ADFS'\Set type"
Last edited by sirbod on Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by RichardP » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am

sirbod wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:07 pm
RichardP wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:42 pm
Its being copied from a DOS disk .. should the permissions be set to something?
If you've extracted it on a PC, you'll need to set the filetype to "Module" before running it - Middle mouse click on the file and select "File 'ADFS'\Set type"
Much appreciated - All working again. Does the patch need to be applied on every boot, or just run once ?

Richard

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:15 am

RichardP wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am
Much appreciated - All working again. Does the patch need to be applied on every boot, or just run once ?
It needs to be loaded on every boot as it replaces ADFS.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by markdryan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:24 pm

Apologies for posting to an oldish thread but I thought this might be the best place to ask my question.

I have a RiscPC (running RO 4.02) with a failing hardisk. I do have a spare 400Mb hardisk I could use in it's place but who knows how long that disk will last for, so I thought the time had come to upgrade to something a bit more modern. Does anyone have a recommendation for a SD or CF card solution for the RiscPC that works? Ideally, I'd like something I could plug into the motherboard and that would work with the cdrom.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by IanB » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:31 pm

markdryan wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:24 pm
Does anyone have a recommendation for a SD or CF card solution for the RiscPC that works? Ideally, I'd like something I could plug into the motherboard and that would work with the cdrom.
The most reliable method I found for a RiscPC is to use an SD to CF adapter plugged into a CF to IDE adapter as that seems to work with any SD card and has a master/slave link on the CF to IDE adapter unlike straight SD to IDE adapters which seem to have issues with slave devices. This solution doesn't work on earlier models like the A4xx or A5000 etc.

SD to CF:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portable-SDX ... 2473046230

CF to IDE:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-5V-CF-Com ... 3382237548

An alternative CF to IDE which would plug into the risc pc motherboard but not allow connection of a second device like a CD drive:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-compact ... 2779282208

You will also need an SD card or micro SD card with adapter.

I have used 2 of the above as master and slave but not tried one as master with a CD drive as slave.
Using a CF card is not recommended as the chances of it working reliably are not great.
As mentioned above there is a patch available for ADFS but it will only fix occasional errors as it has to be loaded from the failing drive in the first place and many CF cards won't even format let alone boot.

I bought mine a few years ago so if there has been any change in the internal design of the SD to CF adapters since then, that might cause problems.
Last edited by IanB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by danielj » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:59 pm

The SD-CF adaptor I bought a year or so ago didn't work with RISC PC :( Or A5000 - I ended up using it with Wizzo in the A5000 under IDEFS.

Best option is to use an IDE podule. Next best is to see if you can get it playing ball with patching ADFS (as discussed above!):
viewtopic.php?t=14016

d.
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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by IanB » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:20 pm

danielj wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:59 pm
The SD-CF adaptor I bought a year or so ago didn't work with RISC PC :( Or A5000 - I ended up using it with Wizzo in the A5000 under IDEFS.
First time I've heard about problems with SD-CF adapters with a Risc PC/A7000 (not surprised about the A5000 though).
What does the adapter identify itself as when you run !Hform?
Mine show up as:
FC-1307 SD to CF Adapter V1.3
Rev 1.3

EDIT: What version of RISCOS and cpu type were you running on the RISCPC? (Mine is V4.02 on a strongarm)
Last edited by IanB on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by IanB » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:23 pm

sirbod wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 pm
  1. ADFS was based around the first IDE standard, which stipulated a DRQ timeout of 500ns, this was removed in later revisions. The patched ADFS 2.68 will resolve this issue
Is there a patched version of ADFS for later versions of RISCOS like 3.71, 4.02 etc as I'd like to program an updated ROM sometime.
Last edited by IanB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by markdryan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:05 am

Thanks for the replies. The CF to IDE adapter doesn't ship to the Netherlands, so I purchased another one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CF-Compact-F ... 2749.l2649 that looked similar. Hope this one will work. I also bought the SD to CF adapter recommended by IanB. I'll report back when they arrive. In the meantime, I've been using a 40GB harddisk I found in the Attic that had originally come with the Linux SDK for a Sony Playstation 2 which I no longer have. From the limited testing I've done so far, it seems to work fine inside the RiscPC, although it was a tight fit and it took an incredible 8 hours to format!

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by sirbod » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:34 pm

IanB wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:23 pm
Is there a patched version of ADFS for later versions of RISCOS like 3.71, 4.02 etc as I'd like to program an updated ROM sometime.
Just run the appropriate "live patch" from the post, removing the "END" so it gets saved to the RAM drive.

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Re: IDE->SD/CF Adapters (What works and what doesnt)

Post by myelin » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:56 pm

Another success(-ish) report:

I have my StrongARM Risc PC 600 booting with RISC OS 4.02 and a 16GB ADFS::4 drive made from the following:

- A Monoprice Ultra IDE(40-pin) to Compact Flash Adapter (which is just a rebranded Syba one).
I accidentally bought the kind with an IDE female plug rather than male header first, so double check that you're getting the kind that a cable can plug into! Needs modification -- see below.

- One of these SD to CF adapters. (The US version of the one IanB linked to.)

- A 16GB SanDisk micro-SD card (with adapter).

This was a couple of months ago, but I think what I did was:

- Set the master/slave jumper to the slave position
- Plug the CF adapter into my IDE cable where the CD-ROM normally goes
- Run !Boot and select two IDE discs
- Run !HDForm and format :5, accepting all defaults
- Marvel at new 16GB :5 disk!
- Copy everything from :4 (old HD) to :5 (new SD)
- Shut down
- Unplug old hard disk
- Set master/slave jumper to the master position
- Power up
- Realize I should have configured the system to just have one IDE disk before powering down... but resetting the CMOS brought it all to life

Today I finally got around to trying to configure networking, and realized I ran into the issue where the CompactFlash card conflicts with the network adapter.

The diode mod went pretty well... I didn't have a through hole diode, just some SMD BAT54 ones, so this resulted in some awkward soldering to try to get a tiny lead in there. The trick is to scratch away the track between pin 27 on the full-size IDE connector and the mobile connector (not fitted) below it, then solder a diode from pin 27 on the IDE connector to the pad on the mobile connector that it was previously connected to. Here's how it looks:
2019-04-06-risc-pc-compactflash-diode.jpg
Crossed my fingers, plugged it all back in, and powered up... and both my disk and networking now work :D
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