Windows 10....

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topcat96
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by topcat96 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:20 am

Windows 10?

Just say no ...
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by cmorley » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:54 am

I have Win10 Pro only and you can set the updates to bleeding edge or stable (which lags a few months)... guess which setting I use :D
(Edit: I don't think that is an option on Win10 Home)

Also means you don't regularly turn on your computer only to have to wait 45 mins for the new "creative edition" or somesuch to install - even though you don't want it to!

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Coeus » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:04 pm

cmorley wrote:Also means you don't regularly turn on your computer only to have to wait 45 mins for the new "creative edition" or somesuch to install - even though you don't want it to!
I remember that particular update - it kept failing on my work laptop because it had a modest SSD and therefore didn't have loads of spare space for Windows to use extravagantly. Eventually I was able to tidy up enough for it to succeed. The latest thing is a rebuild that takes more than a whole working day to complete which I have so far put off. I don't see how installing software can be so slow - it doesn't have to be.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:23 pm

I have just created a new VM on my Mac for windows 10 Pro 64bit. But only reason I started using this in preference to my win7 32 bit VM was there was some software I wanted to use only available on the former. I guess tha will start to happen more often now. I do find the new menu confusing but I expect I will get use to it.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by richardtoohey » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:33 pm

cmorley wrote:Also means you don't regularly turn on your computer only to have to wait 45 mins for the new "creative edition" or somesuch to install - even though you don't want it to!
Mac OS X is unfortunately the same.

Sure there WILL be an easy option where I can turn it off but haven't looked for it yet. Lazy, moi? :oops: [-X

But sometimes I sit down in the morning ready to get working and it tells me I've got to wait another X minutes for an update to install (an update that I didn't specifically say "install & reboot now").

Back on topic - work colleague and I about to do a demonstration to a crowded room. His laptop plugged into projector, he opens his laptop, it starts up ... and says "Updates installing. Do not turn off your computer. 10% completed" (or something along those lines.) So the first 15 minutes were a bit of awkward ad-libbing and scribbling on a whiteboard until Windows had finished its business.

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Elminster
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am

richardtoohey wrote:Mac OS X is unfortunately the same.

Sure there WILL be an easy option where I can turn it off but haven't looked for it yet. Lazy, moi? :oops: [-X

But sometimes I sit down in the morning ready to get working and it tells me I've got to wait another X minutes for an update to install (an update that I didn't specifically say "install & reboot now").
On a Mac? (Or still talking windows?). You must have accidently hit ‘yes’ on the ‘turn on auto updates’. Usually ask you after a fresh install. I know because after 10 years of migrating my setting over 3 Mac and over 6 OS versions I decided to start a fresh install on Friday (get rid of 10 years junk) and it asked me and I said .... ‘No’. I expect you can turn it off but I don’t know as I have never turned it on :)

Windows I usually leave on auto but I don’t use that much, just leave it to install a days worth of updates every now and again.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by richardtoohey » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:11 am

Elminster wrote:
richardtoohey wrote:On a Mac? ... You must have accidently hit ‘yes’ on the ‘turn on auto updates’.
Yes, and yes, that's sounds like exactly what I did (wouldn't have been accidental, though, I would have thought it sounded like a wonderful idea!)

Just saying that you can end up with the same situation on other OSs, it's not just Windows or Windows 10.

There are no silver bullets, there is no perfect OS, just shades of grey (but not sure about 50 of them!)

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:38 am

richardtoohey wrote: There are no silver bullets, there is no perfect OS, just shades of grey (but not sure about 50 of them!)
The age old story, boy meets girl, they fall in love, boy get hideous virus and crashes.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by CMcDougall » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:48 am

^ :lol: =D>
I fixed the cd drive after a day, something in REGEDIT.exe >local machine >(###s)>delete Upper & Lower , then delete whole (###s) folder.

utter pain in the ass, also found iTunes which also tries to hog DVD driver, and I certainly never use iTunes , as get everything a few month before its released.
So M$ must be getting back handers from apple pish.

Wonder why M$ now don't let you turn off auto updates, as previous windows you could, hence why my winXP desktop is always on the ready.
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Pablos544 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:07 am

CMcDougall wrote: Wonder why M$ now don't let you turn off auto updates, as previous windows you could, hence why my winXP desktop is always on the ready.

You can it's just hidden from the User. The same option to configure or more how updates are done is available using the Local Group Policy Editor :-

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop ... windows-10

^^ you can also do it via the Registry if you're feeling brave :twisted:
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by geraldholdsworth » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:07 pm

I found, the other day, a service running on my Windows 10 install that was using a load of resources. It is called "Superfetch", and apparently is supposed to optimise your machine by caching the most frequently used applications (or some crap like that). Anyway, I stopped it, and changed the start up from Automatic to Disabled and now my PC flys along quite nicely. OK, the PC in question is about 6 years old, but my work PC, which is brand new, was also sluggish...so I did the same thing, with the same effect.
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by guesser » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:31 pm

CMcDougall wrote:Wonder why M$ now don't let you turn off auto updates, as previous windows you could, hence why my winXP desktop is always on the ready.
Because too many people never turned them back on again, hence why they all got turned into spamming and DDoS zombie machines :wink:
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:07 pm

guesser wrote:
CMcDougall wrote:Wonder why M$ now don't let you turn off auto updates, as previous windows you could, hence why my winXP desktop is always on the ready.
Because too many people never turned them back on again, hence why they all got turned into spamming and DDoS zombie machines :wink:
Agreed. Windows is designed for the masses where 99% of users wouldn’t bother to update (maybe not quite that high) look how badly comprised xp is now there is no longer updates.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:17 pm

Oi!
XP is quite happy to run embedded systems and other applications where there is no need for internet connections.

It's only in the last two months that I stopped running an XP system (and that's only because the motherboard died).

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by cmorley » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:56 pm

1024MAK wrote: It's only in the last two months that I stopped running an XP system (and that's only because the motherboard died).
Quitter! I still have an XP desktop (twin pentium 3) and a home server instance which now lives on as a VM (ESXi hosted) :D

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by guesser » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:48 pm

1024MAK wrote:It's only in the last two months that I stopped running an XP system (and that's only because the motherboard died).
One of the PCs in my workshop boots XP. I haven't been in there and used it for... some time.

(the other one (a pentium 4) is dual boot Debian 9 and Windows 2000. Both machines are connected to the internet)
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:56 pm

1024MAK wrote:Oi!
XP is quite happy to run embedded systems and other applications where there is no need for internet connections.

It's only in the last two months that I stopped running an XP system (and that's only because the motherboard died).

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by 1024MAK » Tue May 01, 2018 7:15 am

Elminster wrote:Hopefully in a lead lined room with a tin foil hat on.
Don't forget your protective suit
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:mrgreen:

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by CMcDougall » Fri May 04, 2018 7:02 pm

FFS, not another, wondered why my laptop is taking forever :x
"Feature update to Windows 10, version 1803" , 0% for last 20mins :(
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Lardo Boffin » Fri May 04, 2018 7:16 pm

CMcDougall wrote:FFS, not another, wondered why my laptop is taking forever :x
"Feature update to Windows 10, version 1803" , 0% for last 20mins :(
I think I had that one earlier in the week. What I like is the way the progress indicator doesn’t move for ages making you wondering if it has hung. :shock:
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Fri May 04, 2018 7:18 pm

I had better startup my Win10 VM now while I dont need to use it to get the update out the way.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by CMcDougall » Fri May 04, 2018 10:01 pm

well, that was the best part of 6 hours :cry:

again, all music files, photos & vids are now told to use M$ progs, not my good progs, so has to change all that back so load in 1 second not 15 :lol:

&, AND, the sound has gone again, so now to find yet another driver FFS [-(
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Re: Windows 10....

Post by davidb » Fri May 04, 2018 10:32 pm

Surely your sound card came with a driver disk. ;) Welcome back to the 1990s! :twisted:

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by jms2 » Sat May 05, 2018 6:02 am

I've got a Win7 laptop which is basically fine, and I have resisted "upgrading" to Win10 for all the above reasons. However, it will inevitably break in the end, which means I will have to make a tough decision - buy a Windows 10 laptop or go for Linux.

I have got Lubuntu 14 installed as a dual boot option on my very old Win XP machine, and whilst it works OK, I find I am not competent enough to make it do anything but the simplest of things. For example, I tried to install BeebEm on it, but I couldn't... even when an experienced Linux user gave me some detailed instructions, I still couldn't make it work. I'm not totally averse to the command line, but I don't understand why it is necessary in Linux to resort to the command line to do things which are easily done from the GUI in Windows.

Are newer versions of Linux any better? I hear Linux Mint is a good bet.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sat May 05, 2018 9:17 am

Get a Mac :)

Expensive but that is what you are asking ‘Unix where you don’t need to use command line’. But then I am biased as I gave up windows , the worst OS ever, over a decade ago.

By the way you have several options to install b2 and b-em.

Some are prepackaged in releases. Or you could use Docker images (but I need to write the instructions on installing it on another thread still)

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by jms2 » Sat May 05, 2018 11:17 am

Elminster wrote:Get a Mac :)
Expensive but that is what you are asking ‘Unix where you don’t need to use command line’.
I had the same thought myself a little while ago. However when I wandered over to the Macs in the computer shop, I had to pick myself up off the floor when I saw the prices. :shock: Maybe a used one would be a better idea.

Another problem is that I have never used a Mac - but then I guess the same pretty much applies to Linux as well. The real hurdle I need to get over is the "wife test", ie "why have you bought this stupid computer, I can't work it". Could be a risk with Windows 10 as well I suppose.
By the way you have several options to install b2 and b-em.
Thanks, but I don't actually need a Beeb emulator under Linux. I was just using BeebEm as a test case: it's dead easy to install under Windows, so I wanted to see how it compared under Linux. Not well.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sat May 05, 2018 11:58 am

jms2 wrote:
Elminster wrote:Get a Mac :)
Expensive but that is what you are asking ‘Unix where you don’t need to use command line’.
The real hurdle I need to get over is the "wife test", ie "why have you bought this stupid computer, I can't work it". Could be a risk with Windows 10 as well I suppose.
Gave my mum our old Mac, I used to get calls every week with issues when she had windows, in last 7 years of her using a Mac (once she got used to it) I have had one.
By the way you have several options to install b2 and b-em.
Thanks, but I don't actually need a Beeb emulator under Linux. I was just using BeebEm as a test case: it's dead easy to install under Windows, so I wanted to see how it compared under Linux. Not well.
I would disagree, linux and Mac are as easy to install (and much better at reinstalling). You are comparing prebuilt package on windows with building from source on linux. You can do prebuilt on linux and compile from source on windows.

Ah but the ‘linux’ Docker version will install on Mac, windows or linux under Docker. So should you go to Mac ......

Mac’s are expensive but last a long time, just replaced mine after using 50hours a week for 7 years (although I did take it apart and add a 1TB SSD a few years ago). And O/S upgrades are free (although Windows not as expensive as it used to be). Or for ultra cheap do a hackintosh. I did have one for a while but they tend to break a lot.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by 1024MAK » Sat May 05, 2018 12:21 pm

Linux vs. Windows.
It does rather depend on what you want to do.

Imagine trying to install a application that had been primarily developed for Linux on a Windows system...

The mainstream Linux operating systems have software centres where you use a GUI to select and install applications. No need to use a command line. There are a vast number of applications.

Some that I have installed include (in no particular order):
  • Firefox - web browser
  • Thunderbird - email
  • gedit - general text editor
  • VLC - video player
  • Rhythmbox - music player
  • Libreoffice- word processor, spreadsheet etc
  • gEDA Schematic capture
  • Eagle - PCB CAD and schematic capture
  • KiCad - PCB CAD and schematic capture
  • GHex - hex editor
  • XSane - scanner application (used with my flatbed scanner)
  • Simple Scan - scanner application (used with my flatbed scanner)
  • CuteCom - Serial terminal
  • GIMP - photo/image editor
  • FileZilla - FTP file transfer
  • Document Viewer - used to view PDFs
  • VICE - an emulator for the Commodore 8 bit machines (PET, VIC20, C64 etc.)
  • Gfax - for sending and receiving faxes
Here is a screen shot if VICE running:
VICE.png
But the main problem is that Windows is the most used OS for the consumer market. So most money, time and effort goes into applications being developed that are easy to install on Windows systems.

There are various different versions of Linux available. Some of the current mainstream versions, like Ubuntu try to be more user friendly, but as a result do need modern PC hardware to run on.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Elminster » Sat May 05, 2018 12:34 pm

1024MAK wrote:Linux vs. Windows. (Vs Mac)

Imagine trying to install a application that had been primarily developed for Linux on a Windows system...

Mark
I think that is true of anything unless a lot of time spend on the gui. I.e. porting any app from linux, Mac or windoze to another platform looks ugly and clunky if time not spent on sorting the gui.

I would say if you want Unix but with high compatibility and don’t like cli you need to go Mac. If happy to muddle your way through and want cheap then Linux (or freebsd, netbsd etc.)

But saying that I spend as much time in iterm2 on Mac as using gui. And a lot of time in VMware fusion, which runs Ubuntu 17.10 cent os7, win7, win10 and Aros.

I use same Mac for work and well as pleasure, so I have spent a lot of time over last 10 years tracking down equiv or better applications that are used on linux or windows.

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Re: Windows 10....

Post by Coeus » Sat May 05, 2018 10:04 pm

My 2p on the operating system question....

Windows does have the advantage that it is ubiquitous and therefore if you need a highly specialised application it is more likely that this will have been written for Windows than for anything else. These days, though, the majority of applications required by the majority of users are likely to be available on Windows, Mac and Linux. For most people I would suggest if you have:
  • A web browser
  • An e-mail client (optional)
  • An office suite
  • Basic viewers for others files *PDF, images etc)
then that's fine and you'd generally get that with any of the OSes. The choice of office suite is more limited on Linux as MS don't do their office suite for it.

The Mac platform has always been well-supported for applications for creating/manipulating media so you'd expect to find video editors, desktop publishing, photo manipulation, music creation software etc. but even on Linux there is darktable (a bit like Lightroom) and ardour (a bit like ProTools for Audio) and I was interested to hear above that PCB design software is available.

A recent trip round John Lewis re-confirms what I had thought for a while - that Apple take look and feel very seriously and see themselves as the leader in this regard. Partly that's about a slick UI, partly it's about the style of industrial design, and partly it's about hardware to support what they're trying to do with the software, for example a high enough pixel density from the display to make sure everything looks really smooth and, unlike the case with the Windows 10 laptop I mentioned recently, enough power to run their OS properly. They have no need for a cheap and cheerful not quite up to the job version - it doesn't fit with their brand so they don't offer it.

The availability of various distributions of Linux is both a strength and a weakness. It is a strength in the sense that different distributors can aim for slightly different kinds of users so you can choose between stable but old vs. the latest thing, very DIY vs. Wizards to do things for you, commitment to open source software vs. pacjage anything regardless of license, concentrate on one CPU architecture or support a whole handful etc. It's a weakness, particularly if you want to distribute a program, because there are different software packaging formats and even when you've addressed these, you can't be sure which versions of which libraries each distribution is shipping. That's less of an issue for commonly used software as the distribution themselves take care of the packaging which means as a user installation is simple and generally much faster than on Windows., but tends to rear it's head with something a bit specialist, like a Beeb Emulator.

So what of Linux being command-line oriented? I currently have Arch Linux on several of our PCs. One also dual boots Windows 7, though I rarely use it, and two are exclusively Windows 10. Arch has no automated installation, though the steps are straightforward. Updating software is also command line but actually very simple. But, other than that there is much I can do without needing the command line - The most common UI is probably GNOME and that has all the usual suspects - a graphical file manager. its own web browser though you can also use Chromium (like Chrome) or Firefox, a bunch of settings from sound to language to printers etc, connection to WiFi networks, i.e. all the day to day stuff. If you were to pick a distribution that aims to automate more then you need spend even less time in the command line. Debian, Ubuntu, Mint all have an automated installer and, AFAIK, a GUI application for browsing the repository and installing additional software.

In part the fact that Linux users often do spend more time working with the command line maybe because people who have grown up on command line OSes are more likely to install Linux rather than because it is frequently required and, once you're fluent with the command line it can be fast - I generally find navigating around the file system faster from the command but the GUI file browser (nautilus in GNOME) is perfectly usable. Historically, I have tended to use Windows Explorer to navigate around the filesystem on Windows but sometimes, even there, it is faster to use the command line. Over time the Linux GUI components have improved and the Windows command interpreter has improved.

I don't remember a software upgrade on Linux (OS and packaged apps) ever taking hours - it usually takes anything from 30s to at most 10mins and the last time something happened to make a machine nearly unusable was probably at least 15 years ago on Debian, when something stopped X from working - even then I didn't have to re-install to get back to a usable state.

On Linux, you do have to watch out for new hardware for which there are no drivers but then once hardware gets a driver it tends to go on being supported - no more having to replace your peripherals because the new version of the OS no longer has a suitable driver for it. USB has also really helped in this regard with standard USB classes - if a peripheral implements one of the USB classes correctly it will probably work so standard USB mass storage, standard USB audio devices etc.
Last edited by Coeus on Sat May 05, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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