3D printing advice

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jonb
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb »

My concern about an aluminium plate is that it isn't magnetic, so I can't buy a magnetic pad for it (well, I can buy it, but it won't stick! :lol: ).

Clearly much to learn here. I've been mighty impressed with the ease of use you get with the magnetic base. Though as I understand it, they won't tolerate high bed temperatures, so you couldn't print nylon or ABS on one.

I thought Creality had used glass because it's very smooth and hence easier to get the print off. I've heard (read, really) various horror stories of warped Ender 3 beds and this did concern me. A float glass bed should fix that.

Just pondering the bed levelling thing. I assume it works by measuring the bed at various points, then adding an offset to compensate for a non level bed. So far so good, but the bottom of your print is still going to be off. I don't recall seeing any levelling wheels under the CR-6 bed; I think we'll need them to get the thing square (thereafter relying on the self level function). What I'm saying is, we want to have as little offset added to our models as possible, if that makes sense?
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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

jonb wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:44 am
My concern about an aluminium plate is that it isn't magnetic, so I can't buy a magnetic pad for it (well, I can buy it, but it won't stick! :lol: ).
Doesn’t matter. The magnetic bed kits should come with a flexible self adhesive magnet. So they work with any surface.
Clearly much to learn here. I've been mighty impressed with the ease of use you get with the magnetic base. Though as I understand it, they won't tolerate high bed temperatures, so you couldn't print nylon or ABS on one.
Yes you can. The Ender 3 magnetic base only goes to 80C. The more expensive ones like whambam go to 120c.

I thought Creality had used glass because it's very smooth and hence easier to get the print off. I've heard (read, really) various horror stories of warped Ender 3 beds and this did concern me. A float glass bed should fix that.
Yes and no. It is all cost relative. A tooled aluminium plate, I.e. flat, will cost 3 time more than regular aluminium. But we are taking £15 instead of £5. Although you do then need a surface on top of that. So really it just because glass it cheapest, but not 8 my opinion the best, way of doing it

Just pondering the bed levelling thing. I assume it works by measuring the bed at various points, then adding an offset to compensate for a non level bed. So far so good, but the bottom of your print is still going to be off. I don't recall seeing any levelling wheels under the CR-6 bed; I think we'll need them to get the thing square (thereafter relying on the self level function). What I'm saying is, we want to have as little offset added to our models as possible, if that makes sense?
It takes the points and works out what the bed looks like the more points the more accurate. You can then use baby steps and z offset to get it exactly right. So in theory you don’t need to level the bed Manually. And some of the More expensive 3D printers have no manual levelling at all. Also if you have a fixed plate it can’t go out of level while printing, I.e by someone knocking a wheel.
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jonb
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Re: 3D printing advice

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Hmm, I am still sceptical. You're saying that my assessment of how the levelling works is correct. Wouldn't it be right to say that the print is better with a level bed rather than a modified set of parameters to take account of an off-level bed? Not that it's a bad feature mind..!

Will you select the 32 bit controller board option? They said they would offer it for free to all backers, although their description of the benefits is pretty vague. Any disadvantages to having it?

Gosh, I'm getting excited now. Xmas comes early (I hope!). :D
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

jonb wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:43 am
Hmm, I am still sceptical. You're saying that my assessment of how the levelling works is correct. Wouldn't it be right to say that the print is better with a level bed rather than a modified set of parameters to take account of an off-level bed? Not that it's a bad feature mind..!
I should think if it was massively off it would (a cm). But if slightly off (a mom or two), I am guessing, as long the frame was rigid in all dimension so Z moving about at same time as x and y, it would be okay. I have a bltouch but it is still in the box at the moment.
Will you select the 32 bit controller board option? They said they would offer it for free to all backers, although their description of the benefits is pretty vague. Any disadvantages to having it?

Gosh, I'm getting excited now. Xmas comes early (I hope!). :D
Go for the 32bit. The 8 bits are starting to reach limit of memory with all the new firmware features. Even if you don’t need 32 bit now it saves upgrading in future, and it is a free upgrade, no idea why anyone would choose 8 when free 32 offered. My Huxley now has a 32bit board with tmc2209s. With the quieter fan you can’t actually hear it when moving on belts. Still hear the screws of Z and doing a fast retraction.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss »

There's nothing in a 3D printer that needs a 32-bit controller, but if this is a zero-cost option, why not? My Prusas are all 8-bit, as is the Ender 3. 32-bit µcs often give better options for UX and connectivity, and sometimes even come in cheaper than 8-bit controllers because more functions can be integrated into one very cheap chip like an STM32F301.

Glass is popular because people who make minis like it. It gives a very smooth base for the figures. Personally, I hate it: getting good adhesion is messy and it's very seldom as flat as you'd like. With updated firmware you can do mesh levelling on an Ender 3 without a Z-probe. It's a once-in-a-while thing rather than calculated at every print like in a Prusa, but even the most egregiously warped Ender bed is still orders of magnitude flatter than the first wooden-bodied Makerbots. Those things needed a ~1 mm high raft to get even vaguely level. Most Ender users don't even know what a raft is.

Most magnetic beds that aren't on a Prusa are a disappointment. The Prusa steel print plate is a work of art and is good past 120 °C
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

Also after Chep’s review Of preprod CR6 he mentions they switch the 8 bit chip on the board from Ender 3 so it has twice as much flash for firmware anyway. So other than a feature not sure what difference it will make.

I think most of the 100C+ flex plate systems are better than mucking about with glass. I think the only odd design decision. But I guess it is cost. The branded 100+ flexiplate systems are half the price of an Ender 3. No idea what they are cost.
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Re: 3D printing advice

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A guide to filaments I just found: https://3dinsider.com/3d-printing-materials/

None of them, not even nylon, are listed as needing more than 260 degrees of heat, which the CR-6 head can reach (according to their current specs). The filament guide lists wood as the highest temperature filament (at 260C) and the Creality spec page explicitly mentions it too. Along with PLA / TPA / PETG and ABS. Why don't they list all these other filaments (notably, nylon) if the head can reach the required temperature? Maybe they are too lazy to list them properly?

I would like to print functional mechanical parts, as I do not care for those little 3D printed figurines and other useless knick knacks. As far as I can see, that means nylon. ABS would probably do it too, but I'm hoping for a wider range of filament types than those mentioned on the CR-6 spec sheet.

I have an idea of a mechanism I'd like to design and print. A Swiss Railway Clock stop/start movement. But I'm probably getting ahead of myself here!
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

It doesn’t have an all metal hotend, so at high temps the tube can start to go soft and give off fumes. But even then it will shorten life at higher temps. That is why if not all metal you general go only as high as required for abs/petg.

Simplify3d gave an excellent fix print and material page, regardless of whether you like there software.

https://www.simplify3d.com/support/prin ... eshooting/

https://www.simplify3d.com/support/materials-guide/

https://www.captubes.com/safety.html
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

Miniatures are better done with resin Printer anyway.

I have a challenge to print usable dnd figures with filament from my DnD school friends (we have been playing a while, nearly as long as Beeb usage)
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb »

All metal hot end.. it's the same as the normal hot end except the heatsink / nozzle is machined to take the Bowden cable. The net effect of which is the cable doesn't run all the way to the nozzle and as such does not get as hot as the filament being melted. I can't see that being any more expensive to manufacture than a normal hot end. Has me wondering why Creality don't just supply their printers with AMHEs.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

It cost a little more all the same, and I think you find most people mainly use pla. That is my guess anyway.

Much like the bed was only rated to 80c on the Enders with the peel off bed.

Edit: I should think 99% of people who buy this printer are going to do PLA, PETG and maybe some TPU or ABS, and will not be interested in more exotic stuff.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss »

All-metal hotends can manage higher temperatures, true, but they can cause all sorts of oozing problems for normal filaments like PLA. Since most people don't need the really high temperatures, all-metal is rarer.

ABS is slightly annoying to print (awful smell, shrinkage, needs an enclosure or goes all wobbly). Nylon is okay as long as you can commit to a completely dry workflow, with filament feeding straight from a filament dryer to the printer. Otherwise, it's so hygroscopic that you get weak foamy prints from absorbed water flashing off as steam. All the high temperature prints produce fumes and particulates that really should be filtered out.

The glass plate for minis thing long predates affordable resin printers
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

My E3d v6 turned up today, once that has been installed and linear advance sorted we shall see. The theory being Linear advanced is meant to cure all the pressure issues. Will see if it is all hype or works, less Ooze is good for minifigs. Having also the smaller 0.4 nozzle will give better mini figure results.

The BLTouch is working nicely now as well on the Huxley, and now have no Microswitch endstops. (Had to manually back port a change into Marlin 2.0.5.3 to get it to work properly though). The mesh visualisations are interesting the plate looks level, but actually slopes 1mm from end to end, I could of course fix that with a screwdriver.

Will be interesting to compare the prints from the modified Huxley with a stock CR6, it is almost going to have a more rigid frame and less slop, so it should have the advantage even if the Huxley ends up better spec’ed
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Re: 3D printing advice

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Wow you’re really going for it!

I wonder if keeping the micro switch would be a good idea for safety? Belt & braces and all that?

Meanwhile, I’m struggling with 3D modelling. I tried a number of programs and could not get them to place items how I wanted them. Was trying to design a ratchet gear (haven’t seen any parametric designs for those yet). Even Tinker CAD I’m finding counter intuitive.

Where to start?
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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

The CR6 has optical z endstop.

But on normal Marlin your endstop can be one or other, not both. Of course nothing stopping you hacking it to allow both. It used to be that the bltouch plugged directly into endstop connector, but newer boards they can both be connected at the same time, whether that would have any weird effects I don’t know.

On firmware update I take the z up high and check the bltouch is still homing right. Not check on bltouch but usually on the Huxley if a mechanical endstop Comes unplug it won’t home (don’t that at least 10 times by accident knock out endstop wire, which was my main reason for getting rid of them, shouldn’t be issue with CR6 Z endstop.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss »

jonb wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:21 am
Was trying to design a ratchet gear (haven’t seen any parametric designs for those yet). …

Where to start?
There's lots of this sort of thing for OpenSCAD: see printable_clock_project for some starters.

OpenSCAD is powerful but odd. It may look like a programming language, but it's really just a way of building geometry through fixed parameters. Variables are better thought of as parameters: they can't change value in an OpenSCAD script, so you often have to work around that.

I have difficulty using anything but OpenSCAD these days. I realize this doesn't make me the most objective advocate, though.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb »

I'll check it out, thanks!

Meanwhile I found this Creality video of the CR-6 SE modular nozzle disassembly. Should not be that difficult to convert it to all metal hot end (by replacing the "heat break" tube).
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Re: 3D printing advice

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jonb wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:08 pm
Meanwhile I found this Creality video of the CR-6 SE modular nozzle disassembly. Should not be that difficult to convert it to all metal hot end (by replacing the "heat break" tube).
I don’t think it is unCommon on Creality machines for the hotend to get swapped out for e3d, Micro Swiss etc. Don’t forget you also have to swap out the thermistor for a thermocouple if you want to go crazy hot. The E3d v6 I think can do nearly 400C but only if you replace the thermistor, otherwise limited to 285.

What was it you wanted to print in? Some of the more exotic materials will also eat your Brass nozzles.
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Re: 3D printing advice

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Possibly nylon. As I said before, I'm interested in printing functional parts, and they might need to be strong. However, I will start with good old PLA and learn the ropes first. Or try to!

The underlying purpose of my discussion so far has been a) to find out where to start and b) to get an idea of the potential that this CR-6 SE has.

About the CR6, I am hoping it will be forward shipped from an EU warehouse (they mention this in one of their Q&A sessions) so I don't have to pay VAT. Dream on!

I'm also very happy it comes with a kilo of PLA (in a random colour).
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

jonb wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:13 am
Possibly nylon. As I said before, I'm interested in printing functional parts, and they might need to be strong. However, I will start with good old PLA and learn the ropes first. Or try to!

The underlying purpose of my discussion so far has been a) to find out where to start and b) to get an idea of the potential that this CR-6 SE has.

About the CR6, I am hoping it will be forward shipped from an EU warehouse (they mention this in one of their Q&A sessions) so I don't have to pay VAT. Dream on!

I'm also very happy it comes with a kilo of PLA (in a random colour).
They have 3 or 4 EU warehouses, so seems feasible. That is the nice thing about open source printers, if you can think it, you can probably find a mod to do it. At some point I need to put lots of ‘Makes’ and ‘remixes’ on thingiverse for Huxley Mods. It is the wrestling with the 3D design programs that slows stuff down. Needs an Alexa interface..... ‘Alexa design me a 3D printable dodad’

Edit: Also taking into account how much the CR10 and Ender3 have been modified I don’t see that changing for the CR6, just there will be less need to if you don’t want to.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb »

I'm pretty sure (though I've not done the actual math) that the CR-6 is a good deal cheaper than an Ender 3 Pro modified to the same spec. Except, you don't get the wider bed carriage, dual Z steppers or slightly bigger build size. There are probably other benefits to the CR-6, too.
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Re: 3D printing advice

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jonb wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 am
I'm pretty sure (though I've not done the actual math) that the CR-6 is a good deal cheaper than an Ender 3 Pro modified to the same spec. Except, you don't get the wider bed carriage, dual Z steppers or slightly bigger build size. There are probably other benefits to the CR-6, too.
Pretty sure the Kickstarter is meant to be at 25% discount off final retail price. Not sure if kickstart will get enough to hit the tmc2209 upgrade. Extra nozzle stretch goal is useful.

Unless CR6 has some issue I probably won’t mod it (hopefully), that is what the Huxley is for, which already has an all metal hotend. Possibly change the bed to from glass to flexisteel on CR6 though.

Edit: Although if you look at the number of Early bird’s available they are gradually increasing. Was below 2000 at one point, now at 3000.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

Also I have an all metal hotend you can have. I got a real E3d and the Biqu clone. I fitted the E3d original which is much nicer, of course at 10 times the price you would hope it would be.
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Re: 3D printing advice

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Oh that’s great, thank you so much! I’ll PM you.

Ah, speaking of the extra nozzles, would have been nicer if they’d included a tungsten steel nozzle. And Capricorn PTFE. Bit I’m not complaining. I’ll be happy with the 32 bit board freebie. :D
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss »

Hardened steel nozzles are only useful for really abrasive materials, and have very different heat transfer properties to brass. Unless you're using chopped carbon filled filament they're a bit niche. And carbon-filled anything is a health liability anyway.

Capricorn tubing is the go-faster stripe of 3d printing: does nothing, costs money. The folks at Capricorn are lovely, and some of their other products like filament are great, but the tubing's only decorative.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by daveejhitchins »

I'm currently waiting for a Original Prusa i3 MK3S kit . . . They're still advertising 3-4 weeks and I'm now approaching 5! Getting ready for a big build :D

I'll detail any build issues and first print quality . . . (expect a small post 8) )

Dave H :D
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

scruss wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Capricorn tubing is the go-faster stripe of 3d printing: does nothing, costs money. The folks at Capricorn are lovely, and some of their other products like filament are great, but the tubing's only decorative.
I would have to agree, I tried some and it is a pretty colour but I can’t see any noticeable difference. Or maybe it is just me, I have some IOXS audio cable somewhere, very expensive, I never could see (hear) any difference over my cheapo speaker cables ....
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Re: 3D printing advice

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daveejhitchins wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:44 am
I'm currently waiting for a Original Prusa i3 MK3S kit . . . They're still advertising 3-4 weeks and I'm now approaching 5! Getting ready for a big build :D

I'll detail any build issues and first print quality . . . (expect a small post 8) )

Dave H :D
The MK4 will be out by the time you get it! I know Prusa said when they launched the mini, 2020 would be the year of the MK4. I wonder how likely that is to happen.
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb »

I thought Capricorn tubing had better resistance to heat deformation (than the normal stuff)?
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster »

Maybe. But the cost between poor and good tubing probably isn’t that much, so most likely paying mainly for the brand.
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