3D printing advice

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:28 am

It is the same, ‘where facilities exist’, they just don’t really exist. It is like pretend recycling, or marketing.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:35 am

No, absolutely not. It's important to mark product that can be recycled, because they have to be identifiable in the waste stream. It's not marketing at all. Not everything that you put in the recycling stream gets recycled; only the materials than have a market for reuse at an economic rate get recycled. Depending on where you are, the excess gets burnt or dumped.

Everything should be recyclable, but that unfortunately means you don't get composites and electronics have to be big enough and modular enough to repair.

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:11 am

It is marketing when the recycling bit is very prominanet in the blurb, when we know there is an issue recycling filament (as far as I can see it is impossible/impractical in the uk). It is not the being labelled per sa I object to, it is the being used as a selling point, this is why it is pretend recycling. You could do it yourself by crushing it but still not sure what you would do with it then, the only thing seems to be printing your own filament but that still hard. I.e.lots of filament manufacturer adverts PLA as being environmental friendly due to being biodegrabke, but only if put in industrial composters. This is something that the consumer association Which? Has been looking into as starch based packaging is used on magazines a lot now, and also there is the big compost experiment.

https://www.bigcompostexperiment.org.uk/

This an issue with recycling in general, it is harder to get things into the recycle pipeline than it should be. Varies even by district council in the UK.

It would be best if filament manufactures were legally obliged to take back the material and recycle into new filament where possible. I.e. you can’t do that with PETG I believe. They would of course then pass that cost back onto us, but that seems fair. (Edit: although thinking about it that probably won’t work as it will just make cheap imports from China more attractive, bypassing any such levys or take back requirements).
Last edited by Elminster on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:21 am

Also you can see from when Which? Switched to starch based packaging people thought they could recycle it, but you can not, you can only compost it, which is not the same.

https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-e ... e-wrapper/

I have yet to find a solution to failed prints in the UK, seem to be more options in the US (not looked in Canada) for recycling prints.

Something I have real concerns about (and partially devils advocate) when I print things. Perhaps consumer 3D printing should be banned without proper country wide recycle facilities available (obviously I don’t want that, but i do feel guilty). Maybe we are all just doomed.

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:04 am

That all sounds bit rangy, but anyone have any ideas.

Only thing I can think of is if enough hobbyists got together it might become cost effect to recycle and produce own filament. stardot blue, maybe.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by BigEd » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:59 pm

Back to an earlier point about forums: might be worth a go. (It's for makers generally, but has a category for 3D printing.)
Elminster wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:54 am
scruss wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:49 am
I really don't think you'll find a 3d printing forum like Stardot, as there are very few forums with the respectful, ego-free style that Stardot has. ...
Agree.

There is certainly a lot of emotion involved ...

There also seems to be a bit of friction between the ‘old guard’ pre-you tube 3D printers and the new generation (although I am not sure the new generation notice). ...

You also tend to see a difference in the types of people using Facebook, Reddit or others.

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:28 pm

Exciting if I had moved to US my CR6 would have been dispatched by now!

For those who haven’t been following a creality decided to ship US printer first regardless of where they appear in kick starter list. Not to fussed about it myself but there are some angry non US early bird backers, who now be some of the last to get there printers.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:08 am

Indeed - and if you ordered extra parts and such via PledgeBox, you are at the back of the queue. The shipments to date have been printer only orders, to the US only.

The reasons for this are known now, but the beef I have with Creality is that they did not tell backers up front.

On the other hand, they are still ahead of their original delivery schedule, and I'm not ready to start using it anyway. Too busy to start with the CAD/slicer applications..

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:40 am

They are now shipping the UK ringers, although like the US they seem to be shipping them in reverse chronological order (shipped 7300-10700, think I was in the 3000s), so the earlier you backed the Kickstarter the later you get it. Generally I can under stand their shipping issues but that one is just a bit odd. Unless it is to combat people buying early to resell on eBay or something.

So you might get yours before me, although as we both ordered extra nozzles I am not sure if that warrants holding back orders to the end anyway. I am guessing it will still be 4-6 weeks after shipped before it gets to our doors anyway. So a mid sept delivery to door probably.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:09 pm

All the units shipped so far are those where backers did not order extras.

I do not think any units with extras have been sent to anyone yet. Pity they didn’t say that when they offered the extras.. in general the comms from Creality have been pretty awful.

Sigh.

I’ll consider it a win if I get it before Christmas at this rate. But I’m not bothered because I still don’t have any idea as to what to do with it. It’s a solution waiting for a problem at the moment, though I know for sure a problem it can solve will be along soon. :D

I am concerned by the state of the packaging on arrival that we are seeing. Did you see that Russian unit with the broken plastic parts and bent spars? And that was an 8-bit review machine. Awful. There is some concern about them stuffing extras into the same box, but of course we don’t know how Creality will ship these. Let’s just say that the augers are not looking good.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:41 pm

jonb wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:09 pm
All the units shipped so far are those where backers did not order extras.

I do not think any units with extras have been sent to anyone yet. Pity they didn’t say that when they offered the extras.. in general the comms from Creality have been pretty awful.

Sigh.
Looks at the numbers, it makes no sense, let me see if I can see the link.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

It looks like they ship them backwards from that link. Regardless of extras. Really odd.

They look reasonably packed and then used as a football in a 4 hour football marathon around the ship from what I saw.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm

International shipping is in a mess right now. I've been dealing with suppliers in China on a couple of projects and the only way to get stuff out with any kind of delivery guarantee is to pay for DHL. This is more expensive than I expect most CR6 preorders would be willing to pay, but is incredibly quick (my last two orders came in 3 and 5 days) and DHL handles all import duties.

Otherwise, you're waiting an unspecified time for a container ship to make it through one of the major ship canals. Air freight isn't happening.

If it's any consolation, Prusa assembled printers - shipped only via DHL - often come with broken motor mounts due to careless handling.

(In printing stuff news, I spent a week swearing at Ingeo 3D850 tough PLA before finding a setting that mostly worked. It's a PLA that prints at 245 °C with a 65 °C bed. It's stronger than ABS, doesn't have the gooeyness or flex of PET-G, but has PLA's sharp detail. Also roughly the same price as regular PLA.)

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:48 pm

That sounds promising.. (the filament, not the shipping)

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am

scruss wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm

(In printing stuff news, I spent a week swearing at Ingeo 3D850 tough PLA before finding a setting that mostly worked. It's a PLA that prints at 245 °C with a 65 °C bed. It's stronger than ABS, doesn't have the gooeyness or flex of PET-G, but has PLA's sharp detail. Also roughly the same price as regular PLA.)
Interesting, I assume it does warp like ABS. What about the if burnt impossible to remove quality of PETG?

Have you done the car dashboard test?

If there was a material with all the advantages of pla, abs/asa and PETG, Then I shall order some of that next !

Eidt: I assume this is it, https://www.amazon.co.uk/3DPrintfilam%C ... B078Q5QYSG
Has poor reviews but if you had to print it at 245c and the advert says 190-210C (assuming this is the right thing), then no wonder it got poor reviews.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:08 am

Yes, it's the same material as the Amazon listing. But I came back to it after the weekend and it wouldn't feed even at 255 °C. I think the supplier has quality control issues, so I have to return it: I need prints that will finish without intervention. I've got so low on good filament I had to resort to ABS today - blecch.

All FDM models tend to warp when heated. Lots of internal stresses going on. Haven't (and don't plan to) burn PET-G, but 3D850 is PLA so would burn with a weird caramel-like char like the regular stuff. All the equipment I make isn't rated/used in car dashboard-like temperatures, so all I'd do in that kind of test is ruin something that one of our clients might be able to use.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:09 am

scruss wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:08 am
I've got so low on good filament I had to resort to ABS today - blecch.
Is there still a shortage in the market of good quality filament at the moment? I know that all the amateur PPE makers had a big effect, but I'd hoped demand would have fallen back by now. If there is still a problem getting the stuff, perhaps it's a good thing my CR6-SE delivery is delayed (by me ordering extra parts, of all the stupid things). I expect Elminster is in the same boat. The slow one from China, ha! Except he's still got the Huxley to play with..

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Elminster
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:34 am

I am out of filament but not cause I haven’t bought any. Was going to look at simoni robot next. He specifies PETG, hence I was wonder ping whether to give tough PLA a go. But maybe not.

In which case I was thinking of giving prusa PETG a go, it is in stock, I just haven’t got around to ordering it. I have a few other things I could design cases for, but other than that I am mainly doing 3D modelling in blender.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:35 am

jonb wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:09 am
Is there still a shortage in the market of good quality filament at the moment?
Not really, I was just remiss in ordering it, and the 3 kg of 3D850 / 3D870 I bought is effectively useless and I have to return it. I have no PLA at work, only PET-G or loads of ancient ABS I was trying to avoid.

PPE made filament expensive and rare about two months ago, but it's moved on now.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:06 am

jonb wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:09 pm
All the units shipped so far are those where backers did not order extras.

I do not think any units with extras have been sent to anyone yet. Pity they didn’t say that when they offered the extras.. in general the comms from Creality have been pretty awful.

Sigh.

I’ll consider it a win if I get it before Christmas at this rate. But I’m not bothered because I still don’t have any idea as to what to do with it. It’s a solution waiting for a problem at the moment, though I know for sure a problem it can solve will be along soon. :D
Did you see the latest update that they are now sending printers with addon to the US backers but they are sending them without the addons ......

Bizarre, like you I am not that worried , but some cross people out there. I think we will probably get ours (to the doorstep) end of sept/early Oct.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:38 pm

Yeah... By the time it arrives I will have lost interest.

Kickstarter comments page is on fire at the moment. They are shipping to sales partners before all the KS backer orders are fulfilled! Allegedly. And offering their new wifi box for $1 as an add-on. But not to us.

Then there are the product issues... loose nuts / bolts, bad power switches (burning out with dangerous loose connectors), main boards that go POP, bed levelling mesh not saved between power cycles, false positives from the filament sensor stopping prints half way through, printers arriving smashed up, poor quality Creality filament, etc, etc. Oh, something about the USB port's power popping RPIs so forget about Octoprint for now.

And all met with silence from Creality. Their QA and after sales service look to be pretty piss poor. But let's not judge them from other people's' experiences! Maybe ours will arrive and work correctly out of the box. Then again, maybe we will see a flock of flying pigs.

I expect you've seen this: https://gist.github.com/Sebazzz/030d21c ... 8df9fb8b17

Jolly useful!

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:49 pm

Ah yes, here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/CR6/comments/i ... octoprint/

Perhaps a specially modified cable between the CR6 and Pi that doesn't connect the +5v line is in order.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:02 pm

Not to worried about the issues. At a guess probably 5% of people have issues, and I expect they are being fixed as they are manufactured, So my theory is by the time we get ourS they might be fixed. Or hopefully lucky.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:04 pm

jonb wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:49 pm
Ah yes, here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/CR6/comments/i ... octoprint/

Perhaps a specially modified cable between the CR6 and Pi that doesn't connect the +5v line is in order.
Seen that, but the +5v issue has been around for3ver, all the ender 3s have it. And many people use Enders with octoprint, you just get weird effects if you switch of print but not pi (unless you tape the +5v/remove it). As someone else reported a fried laptop after hooking up to usb, I suspect it might be so other issue. Perhaps they connected the 115v/240v to the usb :D. Again 3 people or so out of thousands now....

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:13 am

All true.

Regarding the "later machines will have better QA" point, generally I agree with it, but there is some suspicion that KS machines are all made now (what's the weekly rate? 5000 machines?) and the only ones not shipped are those with add-ons. Heck, they are probably on the boat to the European warehouse by now. In other words, I won't be surprised if I encounter any of these problems. As long as nothing is expensive to put right, or sets my house on fire.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:33 am

I also think quite a few issues are people not knowing what they are doing. Breaking glass beds for instance is almost always because people took things of the bed when it was still hot. Seen quite a few of those reported.

I also suspect there will probably be a number of firmware issues that need ironing out like on the ender 3, but those are fairly easy to sort on CR6.

But once all these issues sorted, if in fact there are issues and not just small but vocal blimps, I think it will be a very nice printer. I suspect biggest lesson for CReality to learn is work out how to ship it before you actually release Kickstarter in future.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:43 pm

True dat (as the yoof used to say).

One more thing that bugs me - the discussion is mostly on Facebook groups. Horrible way to run a forum, and I have no FB login (ditched them a couple of years ago, haven't looked back until now). Thus, I am reduced to lurking for the time being.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:15 am

I have the official and unofficial Facebook and Reddit groups, but I only scan the headlines to see if anything I need to know. I don’t often get involved in the conversations. At least not until printer actually turns up.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:54 pm

As the conversations are mostly American backers whining incessantly about delivery or issues or "Creality lied to us" or some other BS, I think you are right to lurk. Someone tried to start a Wiki page on Reddit which might have been useful only it has pretty much zero content. I only look at Reddit if I'm really bored.

If you have the patience to wade through all the nonsense there are gems hidden therein. For example, the setup checklist or list of known issues (which you have to compile yourself as FB is such a bad medium for a discussion forum).

So far I think we have:
  • Defective power switch (and loose connectors) - dangerous, risk of fire
  • Unexplained main board burnouts (releasing magic smoke) - dangerous, risk of fire
  • Stopping print on first layer leads to nozzle gouging the bed (firmware bug)
  • USB connection frazzles RPIs and PCs (common, but should not be an issue)
  • Loose nuts, screws; cross threaded hot end mount; loose screw found in PSU (BOOM!); other poor QA failures
  • False positives from the filament sensor (originally thought to be caused by crappy Creality filament, but turns out to be the board in the sensor housing being loose)
  • Auto levelling mesh not saved between power cycles
If you know of any others please tell me and I will add to that.

Regarding the first two points, Creality published an uncharacteristically well worded statement that said not to leave the CR6 unattended when printing. I guess they have been consulting their legal department as this KS campaign is going bad for them, fast. The statement also contains promises about resolution (for which a pinch of salt is on hand, given it has the email address kssupport@creality.com which is known to be a black hole from which you never get a reply). However, it notably made no mention of which issue it was referring to, leaving the community to make its own mind up (which they did; see points 1 and 2 above).

Yes, I know it's a hobbyist 3D printer and some amount of tinkering is to be expected, but bear in mind it was marketed as a plug and play proposition, with the only assembly required being that of attaching the gantry to the base. So I begin to be concerned (for the quality of the printer when it eventually arrives, and the delivery of the add-ons I paid for, which is a whole other saga).

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:36 am

jonb wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:54 pm

Yes, I know it's a hobbyist 3D printer and some amount of tinkering is to be expected, but bear in mind it was marketed as a plug and play proposition, with the only assembly required being that of attaching the gantry to the base. So I begin to be concerned (for the quality of the printer when it eventually arrives, and the delivery of the add-ons I paid for, which is a whole other saga).
The prusa mini is a great little printer but that has had its share or hardware, firmware and delivery issues that prusa or now more or less on top of. I think there is always going to be a bit of bedding in (pun intended) on a new product. My car has a recall on it at the moment where under certain circumstances it could bursts into flames, and the German company in question have been making cars for over a hundred years ...

Edit: not come across any other issues, saw all of those except the filament sensor one. The lose bolts & screws on delivery, and usb issues are both things all CReality machines suffer, so no surprise on those.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:45 am

Auto levelling mesh not saved between power cycles
Doesnt the CR6 bed level on each print anyway? And unless they have butchered Marlin you could quickly manually save it with an M500.

So not sure that is much of an issue.

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