3D printing advice

for all subjects/topics not covered by the other forum categories
User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:19 am

Gosh, you have been busy. What is the effect on printing quality? Could you post a few pictures of your prints?

You'll probably find that the silicone sock wont fit properly over those spare nozzles you have already. The tip is a different profile to standard.

CR6 Max is too expensive. It's just a CR6 with longer profiles - that's no reason for it to be nearly twice the cost IMHO.

I followed the link you posted. That printer looks like a bed frame. Huge. I would expect it to suffer from ringing as the enormous frame flexes. Even on the CR6, I'm wondering if braces would help but I'll wait to see how good a print I can get from it first. Hats off to the fellow for building it though. Imagine printing something so big it took a fortnight...

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:18 am

jonb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:19 am
Gosh, you have been busy. What is the effect on printing quality? Could you post a few pictures of your prints?
Compared to where I started it is pretty amazing, the problem is I am using white PLA at the moment, so even if it was hideous it won’t show in a photo. I could try a calibration cube in ABS I guess.
You'll probably find that the silicone sock wont fit properly over those spare nozzles you have already. The tip is a different profile to standard.
E3d V6 nozzles? Look identical to me. The only way I can tell them apart is the dot pattern. I am holding my spare 0.4 against the others as we speak (Type). Those sockets aren’t the best at staying on at the best of times, the amount of times I have pushed it back on, forgetting it is at over 200c, and then sworn loudly.
I followed the link you posted. That printer looks like a bed frame. Huge. I would expect it to suffer from ringing as the enormous frame flexes. Even on the CR6, I'm wondering if braces would help but I'll wait to see how good a print I can get from it first. Hats off to the fellow for building it though. Imagine printing something so big it took a fortnight...
It may not be an issue, you would expect they are probably going to use huge diameter/flow nozzles to print very large things. So it maybe be good enough. Be interesting if they tried to print mini figs on it..

I still have some bracing to add to mine to stop the flex left/right as the X carriage moves, the Z doesn’t need doing and the Y is already bomb proof (it already has twice the metal to the original). Some of this won’t make much difference at the speed I am running but once done I shall baseline it all and then start up the speed to see what I can add till it starts to visually degrade.

The CR6 might be a bit boring, just plug it in and start printing stuff ..now where is the fun in that :D

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:19 pm

As scruss would say this wont apply to most people, but springs have been doing my head in recently.

!st there was the not really backlash but called Z backlash on Huxley. It is only one nut and a spring rather than two nuts. Probably to hold up Z as much as backlash. I had to squeeze in a second nut on them both, otherwise it when it change direction it will spin for 5mm while it puts enough tension, or unwinds itself, the join of reduce slop and slightly increasing friction. Sorted that.

Then all the bed levelling went mad and prints were rubbish, and then the probing wasnt working, it wasnt till I watched the probe and realised it could not reach the bed by a 1mm, I noticed one of the bed springs was slightly stuck. The springs are very weedie on the Huxley. I will swap them for much beefier ones when I redo the bed. Lesson learn but most of a day printing new parts to improve printer lost ...

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:04 pm

I mean the CR6SE nozzle has a different tip profile. You can use normal nozzles but the sock won't fit properly. CR6 nozzle has an additional step machined into its end cone:

cr6 nozzle.JPG
cr6 nozzle.JPG (3.55 KiB) Viewed 1640 times

..and the silicone sock is moulded to match.

Though, probably not a big deal to get another sock. 3rd party vendors will be all over it.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:04 pm

jonb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:04 pm
I mean the CR6SE nozzle has a different tip profile. You can use normal nozzles but the sock won't fit properly. CR6 nozzle has an additional step machined into its end cone:


cr6 nozzle.JPG


..and the silicone sock is moulded to match.

Though, probably not a big deal to get another sock. 3rd party vendors will be all over it.
Not sure what the issue is then. I have a load of E3D nozzles for E3D hotend, and preordered the nozzle kit for the CR6. Not intendeding to swap them about even if the thread is the same. Would mess up the probes on each fprobably as the Z offset would be different, I could recalculate but I will end up getting confused and either crashing them into the bed or printing 4 feet above the bed.

Or do you mean the new Creality machines have a different nozzle to the previous Creality models.

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:07 am

Yes. Old nozzles will fit but the CR6 sock won’t sit straight due to being moulded for the nozzle step I pictured. Creality advised altering the sock to fit, which would mean the CR6 nozzle may lose some heat efficiency. Looking at the design, it appears the step is there to locate the edge of the sock closer to the nozzle tip, exposing less of the nozzle to the airflow off the parts cooling fan. Whether this gives a noticeable improvement in extrusion / layer adhesion is anyone's guess!

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:30 am

jonb wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:07 am
Yes. Old nozzles will fit but the CR6 sock won’t sit straight due to being moulded for the nozzle step I pictured. Creality advised altering the sock to fit, which would mean the CR6 nozzle may lose some heat efficiency. Looking at the design, it appears the step is there to locate the edge of the sock closer to the nozzle tip, exposing less of the nozzle to the airflow off the parts cooling fan. Whether this gives a noticeable improvement in extrusion / layer adhesion is anyone's guess!
Ah okay. So I was talking about apples and oranges, and thought you were going crazy but you were actually talking about tangerines. Quite impressed by Creality’s responsiveness on Kickstarter, customer service is not something they are particularly know for. (Lets hope that continues after the Kickstarter Campaign)

Swedish engineering arrived today, I.e, the bondtech extruder.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:41 pm

Bondtech BMG fitted. First extruder I have put in where the recommend esteps gives exactly what you tell it to extrude, didnt have to tweak at all.

Also swapped out the stainless steel E3d heat break for their titanium one, and swapped in a new nozzle at the same time. Will soak the old ones in nail varnish (last thing I printed was ABS) and then store as spares.

Then wrestled again with the Z backlash spring (was causing the layers to not stick when doing ABS), reconfigured the Linear advance, which is about 0.05 different for both ABS and PLA, but as that is subjective by eye maybe I just need an eye test. I can see why they stopped making 3d printers out of threaded rods and nuts, for ever double checking things with calipiers and rulers, even if you checked it 30 mins before.

Tweak Ocotprint interface to do Z babysteps (doesn't have it by default and doesn't seem to be a plugin for it), saves me have to walk the metre from the laptop to the lcd screen to change.

Also fitted my redesgined BLtouch mount that moves it slightly and adds in a point to zip all the cables to (the only time you get excited by 3d printing a hole). Another gotcha dont use the fade out Z on auto bed levelling if you need a tolerant part, just use that feature for printing baby yodas.

So nearly ready to print the thing I got it for just a few for mods to make it perfect ........

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:32 pm

Phew. I'll be happy just to start printing out of the box (after 15 mins assembly)!

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:58 pm

jonb wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:32 pm
Phew. I'll be happy just to start printing out of the box (after 15 mins assembly)!
Dont sell yourself short, 10 mins. Either way I dare say you will probably have much less 'I am going to throw you out the window' moments.

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:12 am

I'm impatient, as anyone who has read one of my computer repair threads will know. I suppose I should dismantle it fully then reassemble just to get familiar with it but I am more interested in what I can do with it. Hmm, I wonder if the Capricorn tube will come in a retail pack with the cutter and spare couplers? That'd be nice.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:20 am

jonb wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:12 am
I'm impatient, as anyone who has read one of my computer repair threads will know. I suppose I should dismantle it fully then reassemble just to get familiar with it but I am more interested in what I can do with it. Hmm, I wonder if the Capricorn tube will come in a retail pack with the cutter and spare couplers? That'd be nice.
Even buying it from Capricorn I dont remember it coming with the cutter, and you get about a metre. About £8 I think the cutter was (basically a razor blade stuck in a giant cloths peg). People tend to print a guide and use a craft knife. Although there are cheaper knockoff version floating about that come with everything, seen them on eBay.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:54 pm

Stringing never been an issue in Huxley and even less so now. The stringing below is with 0mm retraction on ABS. As soon as you got 1mm it disappears (you would expect that on direct drive but this is Bowden). Next need to retest PLA. Used to have set to 4mm (pre e3d hotend, Bondtech extruded and linear advance) but going to reduce to 2mm, as you can see the quality starts tailing off at 5mm.

Be weird with CR6 not spending loads of time mucking about with profiles.

I have no ooze issues With all metal hotend that a wipe or skirt at the start doesn’t sort. It would be issue if I had multi material as they sit there and ooze everywhere.
Attachments
img_3jun2020at145757.jpg

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:12 am

Well, the KS is over and we are now waiting for our emails from Creality. Thankfully it didn't get to the $5M level as I think a coloured frame would have looked a bit pants. I now have a couple of months to learn some CAD skills, only I'm busy now with another project... :roll:

I expect you will experiment with the CR6 profile. For my part I'm reluctant as the filament is so expensive. Stingy? Me? :lol:

Typically these printers come with older versions of Cura, sometimes even custom (same with Marlin). What would be interesting would be to get the source and see what they did to it. Creality will release it as it's all open. The objective being to have the latest releases running on our printers, with the latest Cura.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:40 am

jonb wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:12 am
Well, the KS is over and we are now waiting for our emails from Creality. Thankfully it didn't get to the $5M level as I think a coloured frame would have looked a bit pants. I now have a couple of months to learn some CAD skills, only I'm busy now with another project... :roll:
Disappointed I was going to have mine in illuminated yellow and pink.

I recon if they had had the idea about the Max at the start instead of 2 days from the end. And got a couple of the other big channels to review e.g. Tom and Makers Muse (maybe they didn’t want to, but odd as they are I think in the top 3 channels sizes). They probably could have hit that 5mil
I expect you will experiment with the CR6 profile. For my part I'm reluctant as the filament is so expensive. Stingy? Me? :lol:
Maybe, But only probably if I move it to simplify3d, I can’t be bothered to learn Cura as well, so if I use Cura will probably use as is.
Typically these printers come with older versions of Cura, sometimes even custom (same with Marlin). What would be interesting would be to get the source and see what they did to it. Creality will release it as it's all open. The objective being to have the latest releases running on our printers, with the latest Cura.
I don’t think they do anything to the slicer other than rebrand it (most people tend to dump it and put In latest Cura version as far as I know) and tweak the profiles; but you usually find the community profiles are better anyway (and I think they just borrows those anyway). Marlin they just add in bits for things like auto power recovery. It is quite well know as people like to put in standard Marlin and see what breaks.

(Unlike Prusa who have heavily developed slic3r for their machines, although still works on others)

Kazzie
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:10 pm
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Kazzie » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 pm

Elminster wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:40 am
Disappointed I was going to have mine in illuminated yellow and pink.
Something like this? :shock:

Image
BBC Model B 32K issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
Archimedes 420/1 upgraded to 4MB RAM, ZIDEFS with 512MB CF card
RiscPC 600 under repair
Acorn System 1 home-made replica


User avatar
scruss
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:12 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:27 pm

Kazzie wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 pm
Something like this? :shock:
Aaagh! Anything but that! Horrid memories of a summer faire in Hemel Hempstead in 1993 …

Cura's decent, but very large now. The stock profiles - especially if they're marked as developed by the manufacturer - are usually better than anything you can fiddle with, contrary to Reddit /r/3dprinting noise. Cura tends to produce quite slow prints, but that's why we have the feed rate control. I've recently been proofing at 300% speed on the Ender 3 and Prusa, and the results are acceptable, if a bit, well, blobby

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:07 am

Lots of people swear by Chep’s Ender profiles for Cura. But I have no way to prove they are better or worse than anything else, as I don’t have an Ender. And whether he will do a version for CR6, and whether that will make a difference, I know not.

I can get the Huxley to do ‘true’ish 90mm/sec prints with no artefacts (could probably run faster as no skipping of motors but frame starts to grown, difficult with an M6 threaded rod frame) , but ... that is only on small simple object with no infill, top or bottom. Once it adds those feature, and you switch on all the features to make a good print useful print, it will run at half that speed or slower (due to the profile I have setup for good print), even if speed is still set to 90m/s. So Speeds people quote on the internet groups are all a bit of a misgnomer as these are generally just the Max possible speed, but needless to say the voron and afterburner machines running at 300mm/s are impressive. Even if the final print is a bit blobby.

Edit: I should add that is what the slicer is trying to do, there is still the acceleration config in Marlin and the laws of physics to take into account. I am not that dedicated to work out the real world figures, my calculator doesn’t have enough buttons.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:49 am

jonb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:19 am
Gosh, you have been busy. What is the effect on printing quality? Could you post a few pictures of your prints?
Finally got round to it. This one only just fits on build plate, 93mm tall, when have max Z of 95mm. Took 5 hours on Huxley, not perfect but seen worse on the interweb (quick scrap with a blade and it would look quite good, photo makes it look worse than it does in natural light). Will be interesting to see what this print looks like on CR6 when it turns up.
Attachments
img_10jun2020at114525.jpg

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:54 am

Improved things abit since above picture with some slicer and mechanical tweaks. Z was skewed 1mm, fixing this meant I had to reduce tension on belt, and caused z probe offset to change 0.3. But all of that along with using bltouch mesh output to mechanically level bed to nozzle as well, means I can get 0.3 tolerance wheel on Makers Muse tolerance testers to work.Now to see if my other planned tweaks get that to 0.2. (The CR6 did 0.15 out of the box in reviews, so not quite got Huxley up to 2020 spec yet)

https://www.makersmuse.com/clearance-an ... nter-gauge

Filled out my survey for CR6, I think delivery date is based on when you did the survey and not when you backed it, which is slightly annoying but I don’t actually have any hurry for CR6 as I can keep learning on Huxley. And I am at the 90/10 of printer knowledge now, so more concentrating on learning 3D modelling now.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:55 pm

Flexible build plates are officially amazing.

So the first thing I will do with the CR6 is dump the glass and put on the flexiplate, assuming the one Creality send is a good as the one I know have on the Huxley replacing the Kypton Tape. Also has the new 24v heating pad fitted gets to 100c for ABS in 4 mins (previously with the 19v PCB it took 15 mins).

Although will keep the glass around for things like TPU, which if I remember rightly sticks so well to PEI/PEX you cant get it off.

Edit: No TPU on Creality PEI but WhamBam's PEX formula they say is okay with TPU (so Huxley should be okay). So on CR6 I think it will be PEI for PLA/PETG/ABS/ASA and Glass for TPU/PC & Nylon.

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 pm

So you are not just streets ahead of me, you are in a different country!

I am thinking that I should stick with PET for now; though I will soon be after something a bit more temperature resistant. You know a PET object will melt in the sun... especially in the car. However I can learn the ropes with PET I suppose?

I confess: I've been lax in my CAD learning. Basically, done nothing. I have an idea for something cool I want to design, but I have been too busy with another project (called "Bad Dog") and it's too sunny to be cooped up indoors.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:13 pm

jonb wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 pm
So you are not just streets ahead of me, you are in a different country!

I am thinking that I should stick with PET for now; though I will soon be after something a bit more temperature resistant. You know a PET object will melt in the sun... especially in the car. However I can learn the ropes with PET I suppose?

I confess: I've been lax in my CAD learning. Basically, done nothing. I have an idea for something cool I want to design, but I have been too busy with another project (called "Bad Dog") and it's too sunny to be cooped up indoors.
I think you mixed PET and PLA up.

It is PLA that melts in the sun and car dash boards (it will also lose its colour to ultra violet faster), PET(G) and ABS (ASA) are okay, have much higher glass point..

A good demo on CNC kitchen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycGDR752fT0

(I am still tinkering with 3d printers, only done PLA and ABS, always 2 steps forward, 3 back, 1.5 forward .... with tweaking, 3d benchy is coming out horrible at the moment, not sure what I tweaked that ony seems to effect them.. )

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:28 pm

Coming back to the dB of the CR6, I think you said they were quoting 40dB, that seems pretty unachievable, as that is pretty much background noise.

By various hardware swapouts I have got the dB of the Huxley when running around 50m/s down from 56dB to 46dB (although when it is going over 80m/s it gets up to 49dB, but that was not achievable on the original hardware spec/design), the parts fan and hotend fan turn off so when idle it is around 39dB (only sound it the very quiet 30mm shim fan in the Octopi).

PEX continues to make me happy. Now testing ABS, no unstuck parts or warping even though not using glue (and that was with a strong breeze blowing through). Onto Kapton tape it was a pain. So hopely the PEI of the CR6 will be as good. Caveat being I only make small parts for the Huxley itself out of ABS.

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:56 pm

Is there a compromise between strength and heat resilience, versus ease of printing? I get that PLA is the easy stuff, but don’t like the idea of it melting in the sun. Moreover, I’m interested in functional prints (probably said this before) so I’m looking for a filament that is tough enough. What do you reckon?

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:42 pm

The short answer is there is no one stop answe/silver bullet. PLA is easier to print, and in fact is probably stronger in many ways to ABS, PETG but unfortunately melts easily. Poly Card, Nylon etc are stronger but hard to print (or so they say). ABS tends to warp. PETG is horrible if it goes wrong as it doenst remelt. But many people seem to use PETG as the compromise between PLA and ABS, and then the other materials for specialist needs. But PLA is great for prototyping.

CNC Kitchen tends to be the one for actual long term scientific tests. He did a good one between PLA, ASA/ABS and PETG I watched the other day.

https://youtu.be/uvlMeTnjriQ

Most of the other filament are either hard to print, eat nozzles or are expensive. Hence people stick to the above 3 most of the time except for special requirements, and of course Nylon is a sponge.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:17 am

All the review of preproduction unit

https://all3dp.com/1/creality-cr-6-se-r ... ter-specs/

Has the loudest thing on the printer as the cooling fan in the power supply.

User avatar
jonb
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: South Coast of England
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:32 pm

I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvxljVfQPUI

The print quality he got was amazing.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:27 pm

Did you watch CNC Kitchens preview ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4NmVe8hCZU

He is the second person to complain about the loudness of the fan in the mean power supply, which is quite ironic considering the fuss people made about keeping it.

Post Reply

Return to “off-topic”