3D printing advice

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scruss
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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Thu May 21, 2020 5:20 pm

Bowden tubing doesn't get hot, except if there's a bit in the heat break. That bit should get warm, at best, if the heat break and fan are doing their job.

My first home-made printer went into complete thermal runaway once and ejected filament + degraded PTFE through the nozzle in a series of acrid puffs of smoke and carbon chunks. PTFE smoke is extremely nasty.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri May 22, 2020 12:03 am

Preview number 4 of CR6 with Teaching Tech

https://youtu.be/uIKDu9GhF6g

As with other reviews said very promising. Only issue is lack of all metal hotend and due to custom hotend being part of auto bed levelling system might be a while before 3rd upgrades. Basically (To paraphrase) you could have called it and Ender 3 with all the most common mods pre-done.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Fri May 22, 2020 10:34 am

That's a great video although it says a fair bit that is already known (if one had read the Kickstarter FAQ, which he refers to often).

I was a bit disappointed by the fan noise. I thought the machine printed at 30db (Creality claims this) but his microphone was showing 50db for the fan alone. Reasonably easy to upgrade that from the looks of things, but of course I'd not have gone for it if it needed all sorts of upgrades. That's the point of the thing is it not?

Print quality looks good, but he's an expert so I would expect him to be able to choose the correct settings. It'll be interesting to see how a novice gets on with it (me, basically).

I remember this lusting after news from when the original Asus Eee PC was announced. How I used to scour the 'net for news of it; even the smallest details that added to the knowledge base were devoured by hungry eyes. The conjecture and the anticipation. What fun!

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri May 22, 2020 12:47 pm

In reality that isn’t too bad, for me anyway. My Huxley is currently printing out replacement parts for itself in ABS and the sound in the room is 56db according to Netatmo. And printer is hugely quieter since I changed fans, drives to tmc2209 and a Biqu Titan extruder.

The microphone in the video may be making the fans sound worse they they are, and of course a replacement notuca is really quite, but the parts fans are usually radial type and they are hard to get whisper quiet versions of.

There was a CNC version of making printers quiet and I think he got it down to just below 50. But involved concrete slabs and semi rigid foam. Will dig out the link.

Edit: link to cnc kitchen concrete silent mode
https://youtu.be/y08v6PY_7ak

Edit2: Not sure if the CR6 has a temp fan on the hotend, I.e. switches off below a certain temp, that makes a difference, as when not printing it will be more or less silent. Depending on what electronics and psu fans it has.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Fri May 22, 2020 3:22 pm

A temperature-controlled hot-end fan would make the CR6 much quieter than the Ender 3. The Ender 3's fan is always on, and they are cheap sleeve-bearing screamers. The Ender 3's electronics fan is usually on while it is printing. Mine failed early on (so loud!) and getting a replacement 40 mm 24 V fan was neither cheap nor quick. Noctua stop at 12 V, so no silence for me.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm

scruss wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:22 pm
A temperature-controlled hot-end fan would make the CR6 much quieter than the Ender 3. The Ender 3's fan is always on, and they are cheap sleeve-bearing screamers. The Ender 3's electronics fan is usually on while it is printing. Mine failed early on (so loud!) and getting a replacement 40 mm 24 V fan was neither cheap nor quick. Noctua stop at 12 V, so no silence for me.
You can just run the 5v version off a spare pin, seen several people do that mod on the Ender. I was running a 5v Noctua hotend fan from 19v powered Melzi board on the Huxley before I swapped to e3d and its 30mm fan, not enough room now to squeeze in 40mm and Noctua don’t do 30mm. Th3 Noctua is now running off an Endstop 5v pin as the electronics fan, or it will be.

Edit: They might have used buck converters to drop the voltage, rather than spare %5v pin, as I don’t have an Ender I didn’t following what they did that closely.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Fri May 22, 2020 4:44 pm

Creality reiterated in one of the Kickstarter comments that it would perform as stated - in other words, at 30 DB... fingers crossed..

I'd seen that video of the concrete block. Seems a good idea for stability too.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Fri May 22, 2020 5:22 pm

We shall see. Those units reviewed are pre production of course. I will be amazed, but pleasantly surprised if the get it lower than 40.

Edit: of course 30 is easy to do if the printer is ideal. Peak noise in usage would be harder

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon May 25, 2020 10:29 am

Just for completeness for anyone following the thread, 3D printing Nerd Published a follow up CR6 video, that is his actual review rather than the unboxing.

https://youtu.be/phYjh2Rwrqk

In summary, he has backed getting an extra two machines on kickstarters .... so he must like it. His main gripe was the glass bed and the failure of ABS (and one would assume nylon as well) to stick out of the box using the default slicing default (as an a less experienced person might). But PLA and PETG were fine.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Mon May 25, 2020 3:25 pm

Doesn't look like he paid for the unit, though. Any review that's for a free device is basically company advertising.

Nice use of a load cell or FSR for levelling in the CR6, though.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon May 25, 2020 4:32 pm

scruss wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:25 pm
Doesn't look like he paid for the unit, though. Any review that's for a free device is basically company advertising.

Nice use of a load cell or FSR for levelling in the CR6, though.
He did not pay for it (no one has as you can’t buy them yet) but he has now backed two units on kick starter from his own money (if you play it to the end), I.e. put his money where his mouth is. No reason not to believe him, he is usual reliable.

4 of the larger 3D printing you tube channels have pre-reviewed itnow(one of Whois a spokesperson) and couple of the have been critical in the past of the Ender 3 and cr10s shortcomings, so I pretty sure they haven’t all been bought off. But they do of course all caveat their review with its is ‘pre production model’ And they got it for free. I would like Makers Muse to preview it as he doesn’t like Enders 3s much, Thinks they are the worst possible machine to give a beginner if I remember rightly, that would be interesting preview.

Weird how he couldn’t get ABS to stick, I have ABS sticking on Huxley onto just Kapton tape.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 pm

Looks like the 3rd thingie has been unlocked. So we will have TMS2209 stepper drivers FWIW.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Mon May 25, 2020 7:29 pm

jonb wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 pm
Looks like the 3rd thingie has been unlocked. So we will have TMS2209 stepper drivers FWIW.
Really? I am not seeing that but then I was looking on the Kickstarter app, which I always find to be pretty rubbish. Not sure why I use it. Will look on website later.

Edit: Ah currency conversation issue. I thought stretch post was in £ but in dollars. Another 1.5 million £s and we get a custom colour!

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue May 26, 2020 8:31 am

To be honest, I don't care for the custom colour. The machine looks great as-is. Lots of Youtooberz print plastic rail inserts that look pretty cool against all the black, but the whole thing a different colour? No. I mean, how would you get replacement parts? The rails I've seen are all black or plain alloy.

What about the 2209s? You said you have them on your Huxley; did you need a special version of Marlin, and if so does it unlock all the potential of the drivers?

[Edit: Ah hang on.. https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marli ... drivers.md.]

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue May 26, 2020 9:53 am

jonb wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:31 am
To be honest, I don't care for the custom colour. The machine looks great as-is. Lots of Youtooberz print plastic rail inserts that look pretty cool against all the black, but the whole thing a different colour? No. I mean, how would you get replacement parts? The rails I've seen are all black or plain alloy.

What about the 2209s? You said you have them on your Huxley; did you need a special version of Marlin, and if so does it unlock all the potential of the drivers?

[Edit: Ah hang on.. https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marli ... drivers.md.]
Creality usually use quite an older version of Marlin usually, and then backport stuff, so not 100% sure if that will cause them to need to update the firmware much for 2209.

On the Huxley I initially dumped the standard firmware on the Melzi board and put in build from source 1.1.9, later where I got the BTT SKR 1.4 I dumped the firmware and put in built from source 2.0.5.3. It isn’t hard to do (although getting all the steps right can be a pain on something like the Huxley that went through 3 revisions). But I believe that some of the Crealitys features are bolted onto the standard Marlin source, so using the vanilla Marlin source to build your own might be tricky. Of course Creality have said they will open source the forked CR6 firmware, like they do for other machines at a later date, so playing is still possible.

Yes the main reasons I wanted the 2209s on the Huxley are a) quieter machine, b) sensorless homing, as I kept knocking the wires out of the homing micro switches and c) you can control the drivers through the firmware, no mucking abut with screw drivers to get correct current to stepper motors (not that you need to do that unless you are changing hardware but you can also get a,lad of debug info as well). None of these are really a benefit to the CR6 as it already had quiet drivers. But a nice to have.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue May 26, 2020 9:58 am

jonb wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:31 am
To be honest, I don't care for the custom colour. The machine looks great as-is. Lots of Youtooberz print plastic rail inserts that look pretty cool against all the black, but the whole thing a different colour? No. I mean, how would you get replacement parts? The rails I've seen are all black or plain alloy.
I was half joking, but I wonder if it would increase or decrease resell value or have no effect. My Huxley is currently sporting plastic parts in about 3 colours. Original ABS, custom PLA, custom ABS.

I guess no different from when you get special edition phones or PCs that come in different colours. Usually you can still get parts. But in this case who can tell. I guess colour is easy but all metal hotend or flexible build plate might have been more useful stretch goals.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Tue May 26, 2020 4:55 pm

Yes, you are quite right and it's been commented on many times on the Kickstarter thread.

How about a picture of your Huxley?

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Tue May 26, 2020 5:44 pm

jonb wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:55 pm
Yes, you are quite right and it's been commented on many times on the Kickstarter thread.

How about a picture of your Huxley?
I can’t say I read the Kickstarter forum stuff much, just the updates and faq.

I was going to post a picture when Huxley was finished, I.e. run out of things to change, power supply and hotbed to sort next, parts in the post. I think biggest bottle neck is my 3D design abilities for new mountings. And then redesign them when I change my mind.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed May 27, 2020 9:43 am

Yeah, 3D design is a steep learning curve. I haven't even started with that yet. It's intimidating.

I encountered the "When is it finished?" conundrum with PCB design / layout. There is always "just one more tweak" to perform prior to sending the files off for fabrication. Like anyone else who has a 3D printer though, I want to have as few iterations a possible in order to save filament. Darned expensive stuff! There seems to be precious little costings for parts on Thingiverse and the like, and 3D printing Youtooberz seldom mention it. Actually the only mentions I've seen have been for CNC router builds, where there's a caption with total number of hours and filament weight to print all the parts for the routers.

I've seen some filament recycling videos but not sure how good the filament quality is (dimensionally speaking). Plus, an interesting video showing an extruder that is fed with plastic pellets. That might open the door to properly low cost printing, maybe?

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed May 27, 2020 10:02 am

Yes we have probably both seen the same recycling, and make your own filament stuff, and it is really completely impractical at the moment. Which is a massive shame as most of the stuff we (or you will be) make(I gotta) is recyclable, and yet you do feel guilty as you chuck a failed print into the bin. I have wondered if you stated 3D printing the water marks for the recycle scheme into the plastic if you could put them in the kerbside recycle ...

Cost wise you can get the slicer or octaprint to tell you the cost. But you obviously have the hassle of importing from thingiverse into something locally. I.e. the sliver will know how much filament used and with cost it against a cost parameter you enter.

My current 3D skills are find something that looks similar and hope I have enough skills to tweak it. Or more commonly find a couple of things that do the job between them and merge them into one object and hope I can get a valid printable model out of it. My plan is to get stuff that is just about functional, and then swap at a later date for better designed parts, when skills improve.

The other thing to bear in mind is the parts look better as a) the spec of the print increases b) your skills increase. So some of my initial parts printed with older 0.5 nozzle, pre bltouch and pre parts cooling fan can be a bit dodgy looking. Usually having pritt stick acne, I can now get both PLA and ABS to go down without any adhesive, which I could not do when I started.

Why to these quick replies always turn into a ramble....

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed May 27, 2020 10:26 am

One step closer to redoing my build plate.

I now have the flexi plate, the 5mm tooled aluminium and the 6mm flame retardant MDf. Just waiting for the new 200watt silicon heater. Hoping the silicon pad is thin enough that I can route the mdf and sandwich the pad between the mdf and the plate. I plan to keep the original undercarriage (frog) for now. I will probably keep some springs, but swap them for stiffer ones (I have a pack of ones meant to be for Ender 3), I don’t plan to level bed manually anymore but the springs help when things go wonky. Will probably lose about 4 mm in Z height, but should gain back similar through some tweaks I have in mind....

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Wed May 27, 2020 2:37 pm

jonb wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:43 am
Like anyone else who has a 3D printer though, I want to have as few iterations a possible in order to save filament. Darned expensive stuff!
Is it? I remember being really paranoid about saving filament when I started out, but I learned you have to burn some filament to gain experience of what your machine can do. Holding back from printing will still waste as much. Once you've got the idea of your machine's dimensional accuracy and tolerances, you can usually judge things right. If you're worried about fit for a fastener, say, you can isolate just that part, print it, and see how the fit goes in a few minutes and a few grams of filament.So saying, I did just trash about 150 g of the good stuff on a case for my PDP-8 clone that I'd sized from the board gerbers, but they were off by 1mm so the fasteners just wouldn't.

My standard filament (eSun PLA+ or PET-G) costs me the equivalent of £17.21/kg, including sales tax. The premium stuff (Materio3D) is £26.71/kg. Reckon on your first spool being down entirely to learning.
There seems to be precious little costings for parts on Thingiverse and the like, and 3D printing Youtooberz seldom mention it.
Basic costing's built into the slicer: it'll estimate filament used (and cost, if you enter a value in the setup) and print time. I used an article like this one (can't find the actual one I used years back) to help me estimate print costs. I've had a spreadsheet set up that can create quotes, with variable markup depending on how much I like the client.

Since filament varies so much in price, it's not always useful to put the estimate in the design. Also, Thingiverse has no quality control, so they don't care about that. And I'd be amazed if any successful 3d printer Youtuber can remember paying for filament: it's all about the freebies.
I've seen some filament recycling videos but not sure how good the filament quality is (dimensionally speaking).

A friend is (was?) a dealer for the Filabot recycler, and I've handled the results. Decent, but he was always printing from clean, known-quality scrap that hadn't been overheated or had weird pigments in it. You'd have to print a lot to make the roughly 50 spool cost of a Filabot worthwhile.
Plus, an interesting video showing an extruder that is fed with plastic pellets. That might open the door to properly low cost printing, maybe?
I've seen the SeeMeCNC “PartDaddy” giant pellet-fed printer in person. Pellets make sense when you're laying down kilograms/hour, but keeping that volume of PLA dry must be a nightmare.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed May 27, 2020 3:56 pm

Arg iPad going mad trying to to quote above. [Edit: Added quote]
I've seen the SeeMeCNC “PartDaddy” giant pellet-fed printer in person. Pellets make sense when you're laying down kilograms/hour, but keeping that volume of PLA dry must be a nightmare.
Coming back to comment about moisture effecting PLA is it really an issue? Maker Muse did a test on ever filament he could find over 5 years old, and where he did not have any he soaked them in water. Then printed with them.

Then dehydrated them and printed again.

From memory the obvious one of Nylon was an issue, there was another I forget, and I think slight difference with PETG. But there was no difference with PLA or ABS. Of course I guess pellets have more surface area so might be different.

Not something I am in a position to recreate only having 1 month old PLA and ABS, and I am not going to risk soaking them in water! Just wondered if you had ever noticed any issues with moisture on PLA or ABS? Or it was just a anecdotal.
Last edited by Elminster on Wed May 27, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by jonb » Wed May 27, 2020 4:23 pm

scruss wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 2:37 pm

My standard filament (eSun PLA+ or PET-G) costs me the equivalent of £17.21/kg, including sales tax. The premium stuff (Materio3D) is £26.71/kg. Reckon on your first spool being down entirely to learning.
That's a good price, where do you buy it from and does it include delivery?

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed May 27, 2020 4:37 pm

Has anyone tried Amazon basics? That is a good price but has been sold out since the start of Cov19 generally. I have been using Sunlu, which was the cheapest named brand that anyone had in stock at the time. That is £25/kg, so interest in cheaper if good (and in stock).

I have already gone through over one reel of PLA, and probably 1/4 reel ABS. And I am still learning ...

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Latest CR6 update on Kickstarter says they will announce the CR6 Max soon. So the two CR6s models and the new Ender 3 v2 means they will have at least 3 new models out in the second half of the year.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Ramtop » Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm

Elminster wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Has anyone tried Amazon basics? That is a good price but has been sold out since the start of Cov19 generally. I have been using Sunlu, which was the cheapest named brand that anyone had in stock at the time. That is £25/kg, so interest in cheaper if good (and in stock).
Amazon Basics is generally fairly good, although it does vary a bit. Standard PLA seems fine, but I bought some reels of their 'translucent' PLA a while back and couldn't get good results.

I've been buying Sunlu brand recently, but the price rise is painful. The white PLA I use in for my ElkSD device cases used to be £16.99 per Kg but the last ones I bought were £28.99 each. I don't think good quality filament can be had much cheaper at the moment.
Gary

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Thu May 28, 2020 12:13 am

Ramtop wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm
I've been buying Sunlu brand recently, but the price rise is painful. The white PLA I use in for my ElkSD device cases used to be £16.99 per Kg but the last ones I bought were £28.99 each. I don't think good quality filament can be had much cheaper at the moment.
I am currently using white Sunlu PLA as well and I think I paid around that for it, a few weeks before I paid about £26 I think. And I have heard rumour it was cheaper :) but I didn’t start 3D printing, like everyone else, till April (although I got the printer from Dave last year).

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by scruss » Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 am

Elminster wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:56 pm
Coming back to comment about moisture affecting PLA is it really an issue?
Yes, but not in a way you might expect. PLA is slightly hygroscopic, so the outer layer tends to swell as it hydrates. It doesn't have much effect on the print quality, but what it does do is make the filament really brittle going into the extruder. So really old filament has a good chance of snapping, either during printing or just while the filament's sitting there. I've had filament sit in a really wet makerspace for over a year and still work nicely, and I've also had new-out-the-box filament snap overnight. Tough PLA/PLA+ seems less susceptible to moisture.

PET-G doesn't seem to be affected by moisture at all. ABS is somewhere between PLA and PET-G. Nylon is a horror: it's very hygroscopic, and its high print temperature means the trapped water flashes off as steam. You can end up printing foam with nylon. But if you've kept it dry, nylon prints very well.

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Re: 3D printing advice

Post by Elminster » Thu May 28, 2020 12:21 am

From what I understand Nylon starts ‘going off’ after only a few hours, probably why people who print with nylon regularly own cheap food dehydrators.

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