Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

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BeebMaster
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Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:02 pm

"Goings-off" is more accurate really! I've got my Pi4 set up all nicely, running Raspbian and it has replaced my Pi2 as my NFS server. I've programmed GPIO 3 to shut-down, by mapping it to a keypress which has a keybind to my own shutdown script, so I don't have to have keyboard or monitor attached to it.

I've found that after a while, activating GPIO 3 doesn't do anything. At this point if I connect a keyboard, trackerball & monitor to the Pi4 I don't get any response - no picture on the monitor and no response to any keypresses or trackerball movement.

It seems like it shuts down access to these devices after a while.

Otherwise the Pi works - I can still access my shared files from other machines.

I've got cron printing dmesg | tail to a file in a shared location every 10 minutes, and that continues to happen with nothing remarkable being added. It just shows the end of the boot-up messages.

I thought it might be because my 4-port USB hub isn't powered, but when I added a PSU to it, the Pi doesn't boot up at all, it just waits with the red light on till I switch off the USB hub power, and then starts.

It might be overheating, a lot of the components do seem to get very warm.

Is there anything else I can check, or some other system message log which might give me a clue?
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:43 pm

I added gpio-shutdown to GPIO 21 and that works in all cases, even after GPIO 3 or keyboard, monitor etc. fail to respond. So it seems like there is a fault with whatever drives the video and USB. I'll have to try my second Pi4 to see if that has the same problem.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by richardtoohey » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:37 am

BeebMaster wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:02 pm
It might be overheating, a lot of the components do seem to get very warm.
Haven't even plugged my Pi 4 in yet :oops: but there's lots on the internet saying the heat is a problem - the Pimoroni fan seems to be a popular workaround: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim (seems to sell out instantly!)

NOT saying related to your problem, just commenting on what you've said about the heat.

There was also this from Eben Upton: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _pi_store/

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm

It does seem likely, especially after reading this which was linked to from the other article:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/07/2 ... to_handle/

I'll see if I can add a fan and if that helps. I think I'd still expect some system messages though if it was overheating and its configuration was changing.

Seems like yet another product released without proper testing...which is a particular bugbear of mine at the minute.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:02 pm

Not sure heat was a surprise as early adopters reported they run hot and then start throttling back automagically an£ turning bits off, so they don’t get damaged but end up really slow. If they run fairly idle they don’t need anything but if you start compiling stuff on all cores or running video decoding etc, it will start throttling. But just a passive heat sink sorts the issue, not sure why they didn’t ship at least the 2 and 4gb with heat sink as they are more than the magic pi cost that the 1gb had to meet anyway.

There are a couple of good you tube videos of people doing hear tests, don’t have links to hand at the moment.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by dp11 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 pm

Doesn't sound like a heat problem to me.
Elminster wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:02 pm
Not sure heat was a surprise as early adopters reported they run hot and then start throttling back automagically an£ turning bits off,
Can you provide any reference to "turning bits off"?

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:50 pm

I don't think it is a heat thing after all. I added the GPU temperature read-out to my cron and it doesn't go above 70 degrees. I've dumped an old PC fan on top of it and it's down to 35 degrees now, but after under 15 minutes powered on, I tried my GPIO keybind shutdown and there was no response.

I had it running for over an hour earlier today with keyboard & monitor connected without this problem, so it only seems to occur when it's "headless", as they say.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by dp11 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:33 pm

unlikely to be the issue but there is new beta firmware for the VLI USB chip. might be worth a try...

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:27 pm

I'll look into that. I've just been doing some more testing, and it's very unlikely to be a heat thing.

With the monitor connected, but not keyboard/mouse, my GPIO keybind always works. GPIO shutdown also works.

With monitor not connected but keyboard/mouse connected, GPIO keybind doesn't work, but GPIO shutdown works. Also the keyboard doesn't appear to work properly either. I can get Numlock to toggle the lamp, but Caps Lock and scroll lock don't. My keyboard shortcuts for shutdown and re-start don't work. I don't know how I can test the mouse (trackerball actually) without seeing the screen display.

With none of these items connected, GPIO keybind doesn't work but GPIO shutdown works. I think this behaviour may have changed in the time I have been using the Pi because I'm pretty sure keybind used to work for a while, but it seems that it doesn't work at all now in this setup.

When I turn the PSU off, with monitor connected the Pi power LED goes off right away. Without monitor it stays on for about 8 seconds and then fades over 1-2 seconds.

That leads me to think the HDMI is the problem: in summary: monitor connected all OK, monitor not connected things go wrong.

At all times the Pi is functioning, my NFS shares are available and the cron job is writing to the log file every 10 minutes.

One further possibly odd thing: whenever I can see the screen, I've noticed that the mouse pointer is always in the bottom right hand corner of the screen at start up. I'd expect it to be in the centre of the screen.

Tomorrow I'll swap to my second Pi4 which I haven't had out of the box yet to see if I can get the same behaviour.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:29 pm

dp11 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 pm
Doesn't sound like a heat problem to me.
Elminster wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:02 pm
Not sure heat was a surprise as early adopters reported they run hot and then start throttling back automagically an£ turning bits off,
Can you provide any reference to "turning bits off"?
You mean cpu throttling on the pi? I think Beebmaster has already discounted that. Just search for something like ‘rip 4 heat test’

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by dp11 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:22 pm

Elminster wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:29 pm
dp11 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 pm
Doesn't sound like a heat problem to me.
Elminster wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:02 pm
Not sure heat was a surprise as early adopters reported they run hot and then start throttling back automagically an£ turning bits off,
Can you provide any reference to "turning bits off"?
You mean cpu throttling on the pi? I think Beebmaster has already discounted that. Just search for something like ‘rip 4 heat test’
I was questioning your statement that the pi "turning bits off". Do you have anything to back that up ?

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:41 am

dp11 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:22 pm

I was questioning your statement that the pi "turning bits off". Do you have anything to back that up ?
I was referring to cpu throttling, I think you are reading the comment out of context. Turning off as in turning off a tap.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by dp11 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:40 am

Okay, but to be clear throttling doesn't turn anything off all that happens is the clock rates are turned down, but not stopped until the temperature recovers.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:45 am

Apparently a thermometer icon appears on the screen in Raspbian when it is doing that (above 80 degrees) which I have never seen.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:03 pm

As it happens I am in Cambridge today, not at the computer festival unfortunately, so I bought PI number 18, my first PI 4. The staff recommended a fan when I bought it. I was just going to heat sink it, but got a fan while I was there. I think PI 4 might be first one that is usable as a Plex media server, previous one when I tried them were to slow as a server, okay as a player. My Mac mini Plex server is over 10 years old now, looking to replace it.

Will see if I have an issue with this.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:54 pm

Best of luck, I haven't had chance to get the second one out yet, but I will do as soon as I have finished testing 8271s...
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:04 pm

Pi4 with 4GB is very nice, not laggy when used heavily as a desktop at all.

Slight aside now as we don’t think heat is issue. But heat is not good, the official case doesn’t help either. It has no vents. Even using the shim fan it eventually overheats run cpu at 100%. Lift the case lid very slightly and it cools back to 65c fast.

I will probably drill a few vent holes in mine, shouldn’t then over heat even at 100% cpu.

Hopefully will get chance to test as unattended server this week.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:23 pm

I'm going to say that all this is something to do with the HDMI. Further to my monitor/no monitor findings, if I have an HDMI cable plugged into the Pi which goes to some sort of HDMI input (currently one of those HDMI>HDMI/SCART>HDMI boxes of tricks) then my GPIO keybind always works. HDMI sockets empty, no keybind. This is even without a monitor connected to the output side of the HDMI box. If I connect between the Pi and an HDMI output such as the box's output, or a laptop output, there is no GPIO keybind.

So it seems like the Pi needs to have the HDMI "active" to function correctly.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:57 pm

Are you using both HDMI ports? Does it make a difference which one you use?

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:35 pm

I've only tried the one nearest the power so far, but I'll have a go with the other. Obviously the preference is not to have anything plugged into either for this particular application.

I've just noticed that there is a bit of brown sticky tape on top of each HDMI socket, am I supposed to remove that?

Also I've been looking at config.txt for ideas, there are lots of lines in there related to display and HDMI, but I wouldn't know what to change or comment in or out to alter anything.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:44 pm

Tried that now and can report the same "good behaviour" with cable plugged into the second HDMI socket and going to an HDMI input.

Something else to throw in...the Pi actually powers the HDMI box of tricks without me having to use its own external PSU. So maybe the fact that an external device is drawing power from the Pi makes it work better than when not? Add to this my earlier observation that my powered USB hub stops the Pi from booting at all when it's powered, but it works fine when it isn't powered, and does that lead us to any conclusions?
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:50 pm

Not sure.

Will dig out my spare powered hub.

Is the powered hub usb 2 or 3?, and does it make any difference if you plug in usb 2 or 3 port?

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:15 pm

It is a USB3 hub going into a USB3 socket. I''ll try without the hub and see if that rules anything in or out.

I've now had the second Pi4 out, and it exhibits exactly the same behaviour as the first one, so I think we can rule out a specific board or other fault on the first one.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 pm

Set up Plex Server on Pi4, and will leave it running overnight cataloguing my media on the NAS and see if it is alive tomorrow. Then I shall see if I can find my spare powered usb3 hub.

Quick question are you running a GUI or just command line? You might have said but several posts now.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:08 am

I've tried with the USB storage devices plugged in directly without the USB hub, with the same results. I can't try without using any USB at all just at the minute because there are 3 USB storage devices attached and it won't boot without all of them, I would have to faff about with my fstab file to do that. (Aside -- I've never satisfactorily been able to get fstab to "ignore" devices listed in the file that aren't actually there when it tries to mount them).

I'm running with GUI - standard Pi4 Raspbian download.
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:26 am

BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:08 am
I'm running with GUI - standard Pi4 Raspbian download.
Okay that is what this one has, eventually, I will switch it to Lite with just plex installed but for test I have default.

And when it goes unresponsive with the monitor turned off, is the HDMI cable plugged in or unplugged, or makes no difference?

I will see if I can recreate over next few days as I muck about with Pi Plex Server, with a view to replacing MacMini.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:36 am

The Pi has been running a few days, played with keyboard and mouse both plugged in and not, played with HDMI plugged in and out. So far completely stable.

Very impressed apart from a slight delay when movies start it acts very smoothly as plex media serve with the client running on an Amazon 4k dongle. This is all direct play, as soon as you start transcoding it will be useless, but as I only use direct play that isn't an issue.

Still, need to try the powered hub at startup. But so far not managed to break it.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by BeebMaster » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:24 am

If you start with no keyboard and then plug one in after a while, does it get recognised?

Same with monitor?
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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:20 pm

Plugged in the keyboard & mouse, not been plugged in for a couple of days. Plugged in HDMI, not plugged in for a day. All works fine.

Shouldn't make a difference, but this is all official RPI branded keyboard, mouse and cables from the RPI kit.

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Re: Odd Peripheral Goings-On With RPi4

Post by Elminster » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:45 pm

Tested my powered USB 3 hub (it is a UGREEN 3 port USB and Ethernet adaptor) in both a Pi usb2 and usb3 port and it boots fine. I used to use it on my Pi 3 as the main ethernet port when it was inside a pitop laptop.

So I think it is safe to say I have failed to recreate the issues you are having.

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