Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

reminisce about bbc micro & electron games like chuckie egg, repton, elite & exileRelated forum: adventures


ivor_the_injun
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Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by ivor_the_injun » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:51 pm

...and for that matter, still would.

I always thought a cut-down Alex Kidd In Miracle World would've been a good candidate for the Beeb.

Others:
Pac-Land
(Way Of The Exploding) Fist II
Kikstart I & II
Gauntlet
Road Rash

And probably dozens more.

Yourselves?

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:25 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:I always thought a cut-down Alex Kidd In Miracle World would've been a good candidate for the Beeb.
I always had it in my mind for a conversion - we can do the smooth vertical scrolling like at the beginning of the game, but the horizontally scrolling bits would let it down I think. The Beeb can't do it with fine enough granularity.

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richardtoohey
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by richardtoohey » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:18 am

That would probably make Gauntlet a bit difficult as well ... I loved that BITD (arcade and on Atari ST - "red warrior needs food BADLY" - "yellow elf just SHOT the food" ... cue for a punch-up!)

ivor_the_injun
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by ivor_the_injun » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:40 am

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I always thought a cut-down Alex Kidd In Miracle World would've been a good candidate for the Beeb.
I always had it in my mind for a conversion - we can do the smooth vertical scrolling like at the beginning of the game, but the horizontally scrolling bits would let it down I think. The Beeb can't do it with fine enough granularity.
No reason why the horizontal stages couldn't just be flick-screen as opposed to scrolling. I'm fairly sure the game has a fair few flick-screen levels anyway. It's a sizeable game, so you could just pick and choose the most appropriate levels and screens.

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flibble
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by flibble » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:29 am

Some JPRG style games with really long stories (probably not doable due to memory).

E.g. Final Fantasy 1 or Phantasy Star

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by MatthewThompson » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:51 am

Outrun
Henry's Hoard
Chuckie Egg 2
Scuba Dive

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RETRTOKID
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by RETRTOKID » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Some of my Spec / C64 favorites which didn't make it to the BBC/Electron

Finders Keepers.
Squirm.
Big Mac.
Dizzy 1-2-3-4-5 ect.
Dynamite Dan.

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by thecellartroll » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:45 pm

Dizzy! (But I think I said that already)...

Or how about Rainbow Islands?

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davidb
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by davidb » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:13 pm

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I always thought a cut-down Alex Kidd In Miracle World would've been a good candidate for the Beeb.
I always had it in my mind for a conversion - we can do the smooth vertical scrolling like at the beginning of the game, but the horizontally scrolling bits would let it down I think. The Beeb can't do it with fine enough granularity.
I'm not sure that really matters so much. It's more about the overall effect than it is getting the scrolling precisely right. There would probably be other compromises that would be more obvious, I would think.

Just out of interest, what sort of granularity is needed to do the horizontal scrolling, and what do you currently have in Blurp?

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davidb
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by davidb » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:24 pm

I'm thinking of games that might have been implementable, but were probably not done due to commercial constraints, like Rescue on Fractalus! and Zarch/Virus.

I liked Ranarama when I first saw it, too.

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:33 pm

davidb wrote:I'm not sure that really matters so much. It's more about the overall effect than it is getting the scrolling precisely right. There would probably be other compromises that would be more obvious, I would think.
I think the scrolling does contribute a huge amount to the look and feel of the game though. Flick screen certainly wouldn't work in this game, and the default horizontal scroll in MODE 2 would probably be too fast unless the frame rate was slowed down, in which case you'd lose the fluidity.
Just out of interest, what sort of granularity is needed to do the horizontal scrolling, and what do you currently have in Blurp?
I'd say that most horizontally scrolling platformers would benefit from a 1 pixel horizontal scroll (again in MODE 2) in order to recreate something close to the feel of the original. Castle Quest works though, so maybe it would look ok, as long as the sprites were big enough to compensate for the coarser scrolling.

Blurp, by the way, just scrolls in chunks of MODE 5 4x8 characters. Nothing special there really. It gets away with it by animating lots of stuff all the time, to detract from the blocky scrolling, and by only updating every 3 frames so it doesn't go too fast (although for the most part, it could run in 2 frames if it wanted...)!

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AndyF
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by AndyF » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:44 am

Saboteur (either 1 or 2)

I see Finders Keepers was already mentioned, the rest of the Magic Knight series too.
Andy

* NEW * The Jetset Willy and Manic Miner community :)

Adventure games ported across to the BBC (in progress) as soon as I can find some time!

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nbelbin
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by nbelbin » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:12 pm

I would put the little known game "supercom" which was released on the spectrum on my list of games ... It is floating round on the net and works with spectrum ..

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseek ... id=0005061

but a bbc version would feel a little more realistic .. Slaving over a genuine system to play it :)

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by RichP » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:31 pm

Interesting thread. Well I had a Master Compact and it missed out on a lot of games anyway. but I would like to see:

Head Over Heels (brilliant game, not sure if this came out on BBC or not)
proper Jet Set Willy 2 with all the rooms
SkoolDaze and Back to Skool (from the Spectrum)
Renegade
Double Dragon
Super Mario Bros (or Great Giana Sisters more realistically)
The Great Escape and psuedo sequel When Time Stood Still (was 128k only on Spectrum)

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:55 pm

The Amstrad CPC version of Great Giana Sisters gives us a hint of what we could probably expect from a Beeb version (and not as colourful either). The scrolling's a letdown in my opinion (and it has the same basic video hardware as the Beeb).

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davidb
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by davidb » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:57 pm

I thought I saw a video of the Amstrad CPC version of Twin World on YouTube but my search skills are failing me at the moment. It looked OK, anyway.

This video of Edge Grinder shows off some better scrolling on the CPC. I imagine it uses all kinds of tricks to get it that smooth. :)

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:31 am

Now that is nice scrolling! A little browse around the CPC forums confirms that they're doing what I imagined, using R3 of the CRTC to get pixel-by-pixel horizontal scrolling - something which we can also do on the Beeb, and which is emulated by B-Em (although it's not guaranteed to work on every monitor).

It's nice to see that this technique is feasible in a real game, because it means we can do something similar ourselves if we wanted to try it. The problem with this method (other than it not working on all screens) is that it requires a pixel column masking from one side of the screen or the other each frame, in addition to plotting the new column of scrolled-on content, and I was never sure if the Beeb would be up to it.

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by TopBanana » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:32 pm

@Rich - The Amstrad used to "glitch" when this technique was used, the screen would often lose it's colour during the scroll. Do the same problems manifest themselves on a Beeb ?

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:21 pm

Tom Walker said he tested it on a number of different Beebs with different VDUs (when he was deciding whether to emulate the feature in B-Em) and said that it worked perfectly in each case.

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, although it does seem that the Beeb used the same CRTC from the same manufacturer in each case, as opposed to the CPC which seemed to source them from different places (and as a result there are at least 3 different types known, all with different behaviour).

But certainly there could be problems like you describe on less tolerant screens, as the technique alters the length of the HSync pulse, which could cause these kind of effects.

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by RichP » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:06 pm

I just watched that vid and Great Giana Sisters on CPC looks like its running in treacle! Edge Grinder looks good though.

Like Rich mentioned earlier Castle Quest scrolls well, so couldnt that kind of scrolling be used? Also Repton scrolls pretty fast. I presumes thats running in 4 colour mode, but you could get something working i guess. Doesnt need to be ultra smooth. Exile manages 8 directional scrolling in 8 colours? although with a smaller screen. If you took away the AI and physics maybe you could get that a bit faster? It's got to look better than the Spectrum version (of GGS) at least - which is in the usual monochrome.

There was a Thrust 2 on the Spectrum, maybe that could be a candidate for conversion? Although it didnt seem to review that well..

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/showmag. ... 700028.jpg

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SarahWalker
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by SarahWalker » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:26 pm

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:Now that is nice scrolling! A little browse around the CPC forums confirms that they're doing what I imagined, using R3 of the CRTC to get pixel-by-pixel horizontal scrolling
Not quite - the CPC fetches two bytes for each CRTC character (as opposed to one on the Beeb) so R3 only allows 2 pixel scrolling on that machine. In order to get pixel-by-pixel scrolling, Edge Grinder is using a double buffered system with one buffer offset by one pixel. Essentially it is doing :

buffer 0, R3 offset 0 - 0 pixel scroll
buffer 1, R3 offset 0 - 1 pixel scroll
buffer 0, R3 offset 1 - 2 pixel scroll
buffer 1, R3 offset 1 - 3 pixel scroll

then adjusting the start address of each buffer. This works quite well, but only for forced-scrolling games - you couldn't use this method for a game with 2, 4 or 8 way scrolling.

On the Beeb, using R3, you could do pixel-by-pixel mode 2 scrolling with a single buffer. You could also do pixel-by-pixel scrolling with a double buffer without forced scrolling, or could use double buffered forced scrolling without using R3.

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davidb
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by davidb » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:42 pm

I'm slightly confused. Why couldn't you do 2 way, non-forced scrolling with this method? Is it because the bank switch is linked to the scrolling effect?

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:22 am

The author explains a little bit about his methods here. I guess it doesn't need to be a forced one-directional scroll, but it's an optimisation to plot two columns from the same sprite tile, one on each screen bank, assuming that the only scroll direction is right to left. I think your very own Castle Raider is proof enough that you wouldn't need to force the scrolling in one direction for this kind of technique to work!

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SarahWalker
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by SarahWalker » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:41 am

Sorry, didn't explain myself properly - you'd need to use forced scrolling if you wanted a double buffered display.

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HotTea
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by HotTea » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:22 am

One game that definitely springs to mind is Drelbs. As far as I know it was only available on the C64 and Atari 800, though. A Beeb version would have been great.
Jon.

(BBC Model B, CUB 1431, TurboMMC).

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by fwibbler » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:52 pm

Anyone fancy porting Quazatron (or even Paradroid) to the Beeb?

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Dave Footitt
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Dave Footitt » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:48 pm

Just a couple that have popped into me head

- Kung fu master
- Bomb jack
- Gauntlet
- Congo Bongo
- Ikari Warriors

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davidb
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by davidb » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Kung Fu Master would be good. A BBC version would surely be better than some of the existing 8-bit conversions.

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Dave Footitt
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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Dave Footitt » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:49 pm

NES version is pretty decent :)

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Re: Games you'd have loved to have seen converted

Post by Benjy » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:41 pm

On the Beeb, both Thrust and Xor have been ported to the PC. Elite became an MMO version for the PC called Eve Online. I think that Repton has been done as well. So those aside, I would loved to have seen a PC version of Qwak. With the speed and responsiveness of the controls, this was the nearest you had to a Mario Bros-style platformer for the Beeb. There would be room to add new levels and expand on the existing game mechanics. Graphics would ideally be vector to fit different screen resolutions.

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