Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

reminisce about bbc micro & electron games like chuckie egg, repton, elite & exileRelated forum: adventures


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msknight
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Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:09 am

Hi Folks,

I've been trying to convert a copy of Defender back to WAV format to play in to the BBC, so I can test a fault. Unfortunately, the rejuvenated file isn't acceptable to the BBC.

I've tried other files that I've digitised myself from tape, and the BBC is perfectly happy with those, but these CSW and UEF files just aren't liked at all.

Looking at the generated waveform compared with one of my recordings, there are obvious pulse differences. http://195.7.255.202/waveform.jpg - Chuckie Egg is on the top, one of the Defender conversions are on the bottom.

Anyone got an idea as to how to get around this please?

I've obviously tried slowing the recording down so that the waveform more closely matches Chuckie's, but the tones are a good degree lower.

Many thanks,

Michelle.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:38 am

I've just downloaded and converted Citadel, and that's worked fine, so it looks like it is just Defender, but I can't find an original copy of it on any of the sites I buy from.

Can anyone help please?

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:32 am

It looks like the Defender WAV is too loud... but that's just looking at the waveform picture, i have no knowledge of UEFs :|

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by CMcDougall » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:29 pm

Fraser is the man for this.
I use FreeUEF, and it worked 60% of the time.
Had to put it through a graphic equilizer, and put the tone up.

Its a hit or miss, as same settings work one day, but not the next :?
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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:20 pm

Sounds good. What ranges do you normally boost?

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:29 pm

It sounds to me, and I could easily be wrong again here, that the problem is in the high pitch tone. There sounds to be a nasty harmonic somewhere.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by CMcDougall » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:46 pm

msknight wrote:What ranges do you normally boost?
put the tone up
the high end, not bass, as computers don't care, but i do!!
sounds to be a nasty harmonic somewhere
again, computer does not care, as it only picks stuff up from 6kHz to 10 or something like that. (can't mind off top of head :roll: )

You proberly would be quicker loading the disc image into your beeb, and saving it out to tape. Most discs are transfers from tape anyways =D>
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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:12 pm

It's been ages since I did that. Any tips?

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by CMcDougall » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:17 pm

*DISC
*OPT 1,2
*L."TRY1" 2000

PR1 X Y Z

*TAPE
*SAVE TRY1 2000+X Z Y
:wink:
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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:20 pm

OK, I've got that except how to get x y and z

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Got it!

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:38 pm

I reckon I must have got it wrong.

*opt 1,2
*load "defend2" 5000

gave...
$.defend2 0058FE 000E02 002302 035

so I gave...
*save defend2 5000+58fe 2302 e02

That feels wrong to me.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by CMcDougall » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:44 pm

yeah, forgot disc shows diff stuff to tape. Am use to tape>disc!
so
*SAVE defend2 5000+2302 E02 58FE

should change the 5000 to 2000, as will proberly get stuff all down screen when proggy goes over &7C00 (if Mode7) :wink:
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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Yep, bingo.

The game loaded and ran, with the MMC chip turned off.

There was some odd behaviour, in that the aliens all started from the same places. I also had to use TAB to hit the flashing square thingies.

The initial conclusion is that the MMC chip is getting in the way of some of the games.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:35 pm

There is another thing I've found. Defender was very picky about audio file compression. It wouldn't withstand being compressed to either an OGG or an MP3. I've had to keep it as a wav recording, even at a 48000 sample rate!

I'm checking the rest of my tape samples, because I automatically saved them as MP3.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by regregex » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:22 pm

Hi Michelle, glad you got it working in the end.

I don't know anything about OGG, but most MP3 encoders won't play ball with data streams; by default, information the human brain won't miss is stripped out to save bits. It can be done, but takes some trial and error to find the right encoder and settings. I use an old build of Lame with the --athonly option, fed from my own waveform generator, Kleen. Handy for loading games into idle Beebs at events from a retired S1 :)

In any case 48 kHz is overkill, you can safely downsample to 22.05 kHz, 8-bit linear which compresses well with Bzip2 and likely the same with FLAC.

HTH

Greg

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:34 am

Thanks Greg,

Knocking the sampling rate down will save a chunk of data. I'll try re-sampling the wav's that I've already done and see if the Beeb will be happy with them. From what you've said, I suspect it will.

A good chunk of the tapes are suffering from SSS, so I'm trying to recover them. I'm managing, but it is a slow process. Their lubrication is completely shot and I'm having to re-lubricate for a short term rip, as I can't afford baking ... my mother would kill me if I used her oven for that!

Michelle.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by CMcDougall » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:07 am

its not a problem with MMCboard, or disc or tape for that matter,
its just a wee bug. Search forum for fix, as i did sort it 3+yrs ago!

and going by Frasers MakeUEF proggy, the beeb needs 1,000hz to 3,600hz :)
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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by Fraser » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:49 pm

You haven't said exactly what file you are converting to WAV. Early tapes did not have the dummy byte in the carrier tone, which is needed for a problem with the BBC hardware. I think Defender is one of them although there might be more than one version and obviously Planetoid is a version of it.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by Fraser » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:29 pm

What exactly is the lubrication? When tapes have a high pitched squeal I place them on a radiator for 10 minutes or whatever it takes. Any higher temperature would melt the plastic.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by msknight » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:54 pm

I sorted the problem out by taking the disk files and transferred the out to tape. Sort of the arse about face way of doing things, but it worked and proved the point. It saved me from having to transfer the UEF file back to WAV to run the test.

I am recovering various tapes and some of them are exhibiting SSS. Pro studios slow bake the tapes, but they are usually on metal reels. My radiators are electric and I haven't got good control over them. I also think that if I used the kitchen oven for this, I'd get a slap!

So my resolution is to use glasses cleaning fluid. That enables me to read the tape off to WAV file. Then, of course, it eventually evapourates.

Some of the tapes suffer from the sponge that sits behind the tape, with the purpose of putting pressure between the tape and the reading head, just simply disintegrates. Also, some of these game tapes are of very cheap build and some don't even have any corner alignment rollers in them. They are really causing me grief.

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Re: Can't rejuvenate CSW or UEF

Post by station240 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:04 pm

msknight wrote: Some of the tapes suffer from the sponge that sits behind the tape, with the purpose of putting pressure between the tape and the reading head, just simply disintegrates. Also, some of these game tapes are of very cheap build and some don't even have any corner alignment rollers in them. They are really causing me grief.
So transfer the reels into a different cassette casing. Careful does it mind you.

I've done the reverse to fix one of my game disks I got, disk had mold on it so I swapped the disk surface for a known good one. Still looks and plays the same, no one would know :mrgreen:

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