Game rights?

reminisce about bbc micro & electron games like chuckie egg, repton, elite & exileRelated forum: adventures


ReubenS
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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:11 pm

Image

Any good? The scoreline's slightly ballsed up but thats probably a cpu bug.

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tricky
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Re: Game rights?

Post by tricky » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:16 pm

The timing looks better,, but the bottom line is missing.
You can distribute any of my games, but you might need to check the Exidy terms and conditions and I have no permissions from Sega!
Did you try AstroBlaster, carnival, circus, ripcord or the demos of phoenix and rally-x?

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tricky
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Re: Game rights?

Post by tricky » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:51 pm

I know you said that you had something else to do first, but any updates?

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roland
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Re: Game rights?

Post by roland » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:16 pm

One of my suppliers is writing an app that is downloading pdf documents through an api in order to display them. It is the same principle as with your emulator: it downloads files from an external source. So I'm curious about:

A - will that app also be rejected
B - if it is accepted can you use the same method

I'll keep you informed.
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ReubenS
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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:07 am

tricky wrote:I know you said that you had something else to do first, but any updates?
I'm currently working on a small web-server that stores all information about games (title, publisher, cover art, release date, intended platforms, etc) separately from the games themselves (i.e. the .ssd, .dsd, .uef files). A disk/tape file is identified by it's MD5 hash, which is used to retrieve all the game information.

The idea being that you'll be able to drop a .ssd file (or 1000!) into iBeeb and it'll automatically know exactly what it is.

On the client side I recently implemented an ARM64 version of the core 6502, which speeds things up a bit.

But I have 2 small kids and a full-time job, so I'm a bit time-limited for Beeb stuff. :)

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:30 am

roland wrote:One of my suppliers is writing an app that is downloading pdf documents through an api in order to display them. It is the same principle as with your emulator: it downloads files from an external source. So I'm curious about:

A - will that app also be rejected
B - if it is accepted can you use the same method

I'll keep you informed.
Re. A, iBeeb hasn't been submitted yet, so it hasn't been rejected. Your supplier will be fine as long as they use WebKit (i.e. UIWebView) to view the .pdfs. WebKit gets an exemption from the rule (see section 3.3.2 of their "developer agreement") :
3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be
used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not
downloaded. The only exception to the foregoing is scripts and code downloaded and run by Apple's builtin
WebKit framework
, provided that such scripts and code do not change the primary purpose of the
Application by providing features or functionality that are inconsistent with the intended and advertised
purpose of the Application as submitted to the App Store.

Re. B, it doesn't apply, sadly. But having the user download game files on their PC and sync'ing them across seems less of a big deal than it did at first.

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BigEd
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Re: Game rights?

Post by BigEd » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:04 am

(Does this mean that a JavaScript emulator bundled as an app which uses WebKit would be OK to download and run programs?)

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Pernod
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Re: Game rights?

Post by Pernod » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:13 am

ReubenS wrote:I'm currently working on a small web-server that stores all information about games (title, publisher, cover art, release date, intended platforms, etc) separately from the games themselves (i.e. the .ssd, .dsd, .uef files). A disk/tape file is identified by it's MD5 hash, which is used to retrieve all the game information.

The idea being that you'll be able to drop a .ssd file (or 1000!) into iBeeb and it'll automatically know exactly what it is.
To get a head start on the game information you may want to take a look at the MESS softlists. I've catalogued hundreds of titles (uef/ssd/dsd) with Title, Publisher, Release Year, and are identified by SHA1.
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbca_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_flop.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcm_flop.xml
There are others too for 2nd processor software and other BBC variants.
- Nigel

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:41 pm

BigEd wrote:(Does this mean that a JavaScript emulator bundled as an app which uses WebKit would be OK to download and run programs?)
Yes, and no real need for it to be an app either! Just need to make some changes to jsbeeb... :-)

In a recent chat with Matt Godbolt (jsbeeb author) I'd already thought that, long-term, that's probably the right way to bring the Beeb to iOS. However it won't be me that does it cos I'm not a web developer. Another problem is that IIRC it runs a little slowly on current iOS h/w. (Unsurprising given the immense amount of computation going on: a VM inside another VM, etc. The fact it runs *at all* seldom ceases to amaze me!)

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:54 pm

Pernod wrote:To get a head start on the game information you may want to take a look at the MESS softlists. I've catalogued hundreds of titles (uef/ssd/dsd) with Title, Publisher, Release Year, and are identified by SHA1.
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbca_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_flop.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcm_flop.xml
There are others too for 2nd processor software and other BBC variants.
This is more or less exactly what I'm doing! I've written a Java tool that essentially extracts metadata from the STH disk archive into JSON.

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Pernod
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Re: Game rights?

Post by Pernod » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:52 pm

ReubenS wrote:
Pernod wrote:To get a head start on the game information you may want to take a look at the MESS softlists. I've catalogued hundreds of titles (uef/ssd/dsd) with Title, Publisher, Release Year, and are identified by SHA1.
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbca_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_cass.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcb_flop.xml
http://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/bbcm_flop.xml
There are others too for 2nd processor software and other BBC variants.
This is more or less exactly what I'm doing! I've written a Java tool that essentially extracts metadata from the STH disk archive into JSON.
Be aware that quite a few of the years and publishers are incorrect at STH. I've been refining these softlists over months correcting any inaccuracies.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:25 pm

So Apple took a dim view of iBeeb being able to load disks that the user manually places into iBeeb's docs directory. They've made it clear that the *only* option for iBeeb is for it to only run/execute software built into the app bundle.

Furthermore they want to see proof of permission for any .ssds that are preinstalled! It'll be fun finding out who owns the rights to 30 year old software that's been forgotten by absolutely everyone not on this forum.

Why Apple give such a toss about this is less than clear. While I understand why they don't want apps that download code, I really don't see that it's any of their business what users manually put on their computers. There's loads of video player apps on the App Store and I don't see that they're restricted from playing user-supplied content in any way. I guess Apple just really hate emulators.

So, any practical, feasible suggestions for what can go into iBeeb? Must be provably usable! Surely there's *some* games in the public domain?

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Re: Game rights?

Post by davidb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:35 pm

ReubenS wrote:So Apple took a dim view of iBeeb being able to load disks that the user manually places into iBeeb's docs directory. They've made it clear that the *only* option for iBeeb is for it to only run/execute software built into the app bundle.
Well that clears that up, then. :( Though I get the impression that these judgements are subject to someone's whims and can change over time.
ReubenS wrote:Furthermore they want to see proof of permission for any .ssds that are preinstalled! It'll be fun finding out who owns the rights to 30 year old software that's been forgotten by absolutely everyone not on this forum.
Some authors have granted permission for their old games to be redistributed (Elite, for example) and there are new games being created that could be included. The new games might not appeal to people's nostalgia, though.
ReubenS wrote:Why Apple give such a toss about this is less than clear. While I understand why they don't want apps that download code, I really don't see that it's any of their business what users manually put on their computers. There's loads of video player apps on the App Store and I don't see that they're restricted from playing user-supplied content in any way. I guess Apple just really hate emulators.
Because it's not the users' computers, it's Apple's computers - I guess that's how they see things. It's all about control and having the iRights to everything. ;)
ReubenS wrote:So, any practical, feasible suggestions for what can go into iBeeb? Must be provably usable! Surely there's *some* games in the public domain?
Well, I would be happy to let you distribute my games but they're licensed under the GPL, and Apple certainly doesn't like that. :lol:

More constructively, however, I'm sure you could make progress just asking authors for permission. It's also a worthwhile effort in its own right. I'm sure we can track some of the old authors down, if required. :)

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ThomasHarte » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:50 pm

ReubenS wrote:Why Apple give such a toss about this is less than clear. While I understand why they don't want apps that download code, I really don't see that it's any of their business what users manually put on their computers.
Prognosticating, it'd be the thin end of the wedge. If people can use your app to put games Apple hasn't approved onto their iPad, why can't they do the same thing with my Adobe Air-or-whatever environment? The reason is obvious to you and I but it's very difficult to explain to most consumers and, in any case, Apple doesn't want to get involved in carving out niches in its rules. So all executable content must be present at the point that Apple reviews.

The only change in Apple's policies over the last nine years has been that Xcode no longer requires a paid subscription to build and test code on a device — all you need is a registered Apple ID (because it still goes to the server and generates certificates and so on, you just no longer pay for them). Which means that there are maybe a handful of applications intended for sophisticated users to "sideload" in the sense of check out of GitHub, maybe add some files to the resources folder, and hit command-R.

(I wrote and released a ZX Spectrum emulator for the original iPad back in 2010 using only titles available as public domain; other than Elite Systems — the company it later turned out weren't actually paying any of its contractees — claiming that any use of their 'ZX Spectrum' trade mark was inherently infringement, we didn't have any issues)
davidb wrote:Well, I would be happy to let you distribute my games but they're licensed under the GPL, and Apple certainly doesn't like that. :lol:
If Apple didn't like the GPL, your Android phone wouldn't have a browser. Well, okay, it obviously would, but a different one.

Apple has historically had no problem with vending software that originates with a GPL licence. The one famous case of a takedown, an early version of VLC, was due to a particular activist developer making a formal complaint to Apple after release.

I don't know the full story since, but VLC is notably available for iOS.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by paulb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:03 pm

ThomasHarte wrote:
davidb wrote:Well, I would be happy to let you distribute my games but they're licensed under the GPL, and Apple certainly doesn't like that. :lol:
If Apple didn't like the GPL, your Android phone wouldn't have a browser. Well, okay, it obviously would, but a different one.
WebKit? That's LGPL-licensed which is permissive enough for Apple to tolerate (given that Apple needed to find a browser from somewhere and that the choice was either Mozilla or KHTML, the latter being the basis for WebKit), which then led to others joining the WebKit bandwagon, notably Google and Nokia (and thus bringing WebKit almost full circle, since KHTML originated within KDE and Nokia acquired Trolltech, some of whose developers probably had a hand in developing KHTML in the first place).
ThomasHarte wrote:Apple has historically had no problem with vending software that originates with a GPL licence. The one famous case of a takedown, an early version of VLC, was due to a particular activist developer making a formal complaint to Apple after release.

I don't know the full story since, but VLC is notably available for iOS.
VLC went through a relicensing effort to be able to offer their work through the App Store. Coincidentally, I was reading a masters thesis only the other day which covered this topic, and to the author's credit, a fairly comprehensive treatment is given to such matters.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by davidb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:15 pm

I see paulb has already covered many of the same points. Still, I've already written this...
ThomasHarte wrote:If Apple didn't like the GPL, your Android phone wouldn't have a browser. Well, okay, it obviously would, but a different one.
But one using much of the same code, or with much of the same heritage, and which started with an LGPL license in any case.
ThomasHarte wrote:Apple has historically had no problem with vending software that originates with a GPL licence. The one famous case of a takedown, an early version of VLC, was due to a particular activist developer making a formal complaint to Apple after release.

I don't know the full story since, but VLC is notably available for iOS.
The core of VLC was relicensed to enable this, as I understand it.

I realise that Apple may not have an explicit policy on the GPL in the iOS App Store but I've read a number of times that the terms and conditions are incompatible with the GPL and, depending on how you build your application, with the LGPL as well. For what it's worth, other app stores may have the same problems.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ThomasHarte » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:17 pm

paulb wrote:VLC went through a relicensing effort to be able to offer their work through the App Store. Coincidentally, I was reading a masters thesis only the other day which covered this topic, and to the author's credit, a fairly comprehensive treatment is given to such matters.
Regardless, timeline was:
  • VLC submitted to Apple;
  • Apple approves and publishes VLC;
  • legal complaint received by Apple;
  • Apple withdraws VLC.
This appears to establish that Apple has no problem publishing GPL-licensed software that is submitted to it.

Conversely, Apple's preferred open sourcing licence nowadays is the Apache licence. So maybe you could argue that Apple has a problem with the GPL and LGPL in not considering them permissive enough?
davidb wrote:
ThomasHarte wrote:If Apple didn't like the GPL, your Android phone wouldn't have a browser. Well, okay, it obviously would, but a different one.
But one using much of the same code, or with much of the same heritage, and which started with an LGPL license in any case.
KHTML began in 1999; Apple forked it in 2001; both Android and the original iPhone appeared circle 2008. I'd suggest that it would not be "much of the same code". The timeline simply doesn't support that.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by davidb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:38 pm

ThomasHarte wrote:KHTML began in 1999; Apple forked it in 2001; both Android and the original iPhone appeared circle 2008. I'd suggest that it would not be "much of the same code". The timeline simply doesn't support that.
I don't doubt that, but there would have been no WebKit without KHTML.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ThomasHarte » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:03 pm

davidb wrote:
ThomasHarte wrote:KHTML began in 1999; Apple forked it in 2001; both Android and the original iPhone appeared circle 2008. I'd suggest that it would not be "much of the same code". The timeline simply doesn't support that.
I don't doubt that, but there would have been no WebKit without KHTML.
Indeed. No credit due to Apple for starting the project or for its early qualities, merely to note that if the company had an anti-LGPL stance then it would not have selected KHTML for its purposes.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:07 pm

ThomasHarte wrote: Prognosticating, it'd be the thin end of the wedge. If people can use your app to put games Apple hasn't approved onto their iPad, why can't they do the same thing with my Adobe Air-or-whatever environment?
I guess this is it. What if someone wrote an iPhone-emulator app that allowed the user to sideload iPhone apps using the same mechanism as iBeeb? :-)


I don't know how popular jailbreaking is these days but I intend to get the full iBeeb onto Cydia (alternative app store for jailbroken users) at some point. iOS is only jailbroken up to 9.0 though so I'll have to downgrade an iDevice first.

Disks, disks, disks... am looking into Elite as a possibility. Do authors generally retain distribution rights? I thought they'd be owned by software houses, which are obviously largely defunct now.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:36 pm

The situation is complex. The rights have often either been sold or transferred and are owned by a currently operating company. Or the rights were not sold or transferred and have reverted to the original writers / programmers etc.

It can be even more complex if the game / software had a tie-in with another copyright owner (film/movie/official arcade/official toy etc).

World of Spectrum has done a lot of work on this very issue. Visit the web site and have a read of this web page. [By the way, the WoS site only has permissions for software to hosted on the WoS site only].

The Sinclair QL community is also trying to find people and companies to ask for permission.

The biggest problem is actually finding the contact details of a person who knows about the software you want to use.

Good luck :D you will need it.

Do let us know how you get on.

Mark

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Re: Game rights?

Post by paulb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:40 pm

ThomasHarte wrote:
davidb wrote:
ThomasHarte wrote:KHTML began in 1999; Apple forked it in 2001; both Android and the original iPhone appeared circle 2008. I'd suggest that it would not be "much of the same code". The timeline simply doesn't support that.
I don't doubt that, but there would have been no WebKit without KHTML.
Indeed. No credit due to Apple for starting the project or for its early qualities, merely to note that if the company had an anti-LGPL stance then it would not have selected KHTML for its purposes.
Apple is apparently against the GPL for its strong copyleft properties - it supposedly goes back to the time when the company added Objective-C support to GCC and wasn't allowed to distribute the compiler in binary-only form - whereas the company managed to live with the LGPL which is a weak copyleft licence, but even then it was probably a matter of making do rather than really aligning with what the licence is about. As I noted: for a viable browser it was a choice between Mozilla and KHTML at the time, and the guy who led the project having come from Mozilla actually chose KHTML instead.

Personally, I wonder about the various permissions to relink binaries against modified forms of LGPL-licensed code and whether distributing such code via the App Store upholds the licence, but anyway. That masters thesis probably links to various opinions that carry a lot more weight than mine about all this.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ThomasHarte » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:41 pm

Side query, possibly stemming from my long absence: I personally received it as back-channel advice c.2000 that Pace wasn't interested in pursuing any rights over the 8-bit Acorn ROMs but has the community ever obtained legal clarity?

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Re: Game rights?

Post by tricky » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:22 pm

I did get permission for an emulator I was writing for uni in the 90s.
I would love to be able to play my games on my phone, any news?

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:38 pm

Yup, some fairly big news!

Earlier this week I got to playing with something called Emscripten, a tool from Mozilla that compiles C++/Obj-C/Java/Swift/etc to Javascript. You'd think the emitted Javascript would perform dismally but to my utter amazement it's actually really good! Believe it or not the emscripten'd iBeeb (which is mostly C++) runs at the full 50fps on iPhone 6S, 6, and 5S! The iPhone 5 gets ~25fps but there's still plenty of optimisation work to be done to get it up to speed.

You can see a very early demo at http://www.ibeeb.co.uk/sandbox/ibeeb.html . Bear in mind it's designed for iPhone screens so it looks a bit weird on desktop. And remember that mobile Safari has a 'Add to home screen' share option which, if used, shows the page without the address bar etc, as if it were a normal app.

So you can see where this is going... iBeeb will now become a web app, but without the suckiness that one normally associates with web apps. It'll run at a proper speed and will perform just fine if offline. My intention is that it'll be indistinguishable from the native app... as of writing I know of no technical reason why that can't be achieved.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by tricky » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:15 pm

Seems pretty good, 20-25 fps on my phone using chrome, which does make it feel slower than beebdroid. Will the android version still be c++ and asm?
PS it probably doesn't matter, but it is 1 to 2 fps on the default android browser.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:51 am

Well this is fairly next-level web stuff so it'll always depend on a modern browser and hardware. Performance will likely never be better than 50% of native (that's the best case currently claimed by Mozilla). Frankly it's astonishing that any of this works at all!

I'm certain there is no better option for bringing the Beeb to iOS, the original goal. Apple's App Store restrictions are just too onerous, and rights-holders too hard to find. Emscripten is the right thing here, so that's my focus at the moment.

But Beebdroid will get it's update eventually. In fact, while the current work uses HTML/JS/CSS for the emulator shell (the keyboard and menus etc) my longer-term goal is to do the entire UI from Emscripten'd code. Which can obviously be run natively on non-iOS platforms, and it'll be exactly the same app! There are large implications for the future of all mobile app work, IMHO.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by ReubenS » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:35 am

Btw what Android phone and version are you using?

Can you check that WebGL is enabled?

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Re: Game rights?

Post by tricky » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:33 am

It is an import with a mediatek mobo.
Both chrome (as you would guess from the 20+ fps) and the default browser seem to support webgl, but I'm not sure that the default browser is using hardware acceleration.
As the display is full HD, there are a lot of pixels to fill.
It is android 4.2.1.

EDIT: both browsers seem to be able to use hardware acceleration, but some apps don't seem to detect it properly on the default browser.

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Re: Game rights?

Post by steve3000 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:10 am

Very interesting. Seems to work well using chrome on my Xperia Z3 compact, but a bit slower than beebdroid as you say. Mode 7 runs at about 30-35 fps and mode 0 gets about 40-45 fps.

However it doesn't appear to work on my ipad air, reports 'exception thrown, see javascript console' twice, then at the top of screen: 'could not create canvas....'

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