Stardot archive

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iamaran
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Stardot archive

Postby iamaran » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:43 am

Arcadian wrote:I scanned my Topologika stuff in years back (see directory listing below) ... this is why we need to get the StarDot file archive opened ... got hundreds of gigs worth of scans, dumps etc like this!


Is there to be one? I realise it's easy for me to sit here and ask such a question but... is there?

If the answer is "maybe" then what is needed to allow this to happen? Skills? Time? Money? I'd be happy to contribute (if I'm able) if I knew what was required.

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sydney
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby sydney » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:36 am

Somehow missed this post when you made it.
I agree wholeheartedly!
I understand time is an issue for all of us but if we could create some concrete plans then it doesn't all have to fall onto one person. Maybe if one or two people could co-ordinate a larger "team" we'd be able to get this sorted.

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roland
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby roland » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Who has a several hundreds of gigs storage on a web server?
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby Lion » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:03 pm

roland wrote:Who has a several hundreds of gigs storage on a web server?


I have an Amazon S3 account which I'd be happy to store stuff on. There's no storage limit.

It's not free, but it's pretty cheap.

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby sweh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:05 pm

roland wrote:Who has a several hundreds of gigs storage on a web server?


My server has almost 1Tb free.

Code: Select all

% vgs
  VG   #PV #LV #SN Attr   VSize VFree 
  Data   1   6   0 wz--n- 1.81t 979.88g


I can build a VM with 500Gb of space very quickly and easily; server is RAID1, IPv4 and IPv6, but hosted in Canada so may not be the fastest for UK people...

Or... if you're not fussed about commercial levels of uptime, my home machine has 14Tb of RAID6 free :-)
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:03 am

I'm just about to free-up a 2Tb, mirrored NAS drive. I could donate it if someone is will to do the hosting?

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iamaran
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby iamaran » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:10 pm

Disappointed by this thread amongst others:
http://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5743

We need to organise. We need an archive and we need funds. There have been discussions in the past, but I think we need to act now.

I don't have much ready cash or spare time nowadays as I have a young family. However I do occasionally receive odds and ends of retro and I'm willing to either eBay them and donate the money to the cause or to offer them at reasonable prices on here on the proviso that the money goes to the fund.

I'm willing to donate stuff in exchange for cash for the fund right now if someone is willing to co-ordinate and be the treasurer. If it was 2005 I’d be volunteering my services, but I simply can't at this moment in time.

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roland
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby roland » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:42 pm

iamaran wrote:We need to organise. We need an archive and we need funds.


I don't understand exactly what you need funds for? Is that just for the hosting? I can arrange that. Time is also a problem for me, running my business, volunteering at local organisations etc. But I can "donate" webspace for an archive.
256K + 6502 Inside
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby paulb » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:23 pm

roland wrote:
iamaran wrote:We need to organise. We need an archive and we need funds.


I don't understand exactly what you need funds for? Is that just for the hosting? I can arrange that. Time is also a problem for me, running my business, volunteering at local organisations etc. But I can "donate" webspace for an archive.


I think quite a few of us have storage, even Web-accessible, but the issues of biggest concern would probably be...

  • Bandwidth: lots of images plus lots of visitors requires high bandwidth (for responsiveness) and thus a high data "allocation", which is where some hosting might fall short.
  • Copyright: most copyright holders are probably neutral or even positive towards hosting of their long-forgotten works, but there needs to be a robust system of defending the archive against aggressive claims and upholding the public service aspect of such a service (which our legislators continually neglect in order to dole out term extensions to aging pop stars and media companies).
  • Management: this has to be done in a sustainable and collective way so that we're not relying on a single individual who might lose interest, disappear, forget to renew the domain, or whatever.

I realise that many of us are here because of the existence of the Stairway To Hell archive and some people have experience of hosting archives, perhaps even negotiating with copyright holders, but I thought it might be useful to put the above issues on the table in order to move the conversation forward.

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roland
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby roland » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:55 pm

paulb wrote:Bandwidth: lots of images plus lots of visitors requires high bandwidth (for responsiveness) and thus a high data "allocation", which is where some hosting might fall short.


Would 50GB storage and 1 TB traffic be enough? If we compare to STH ... how much storage and traffic has this site?

paulb wrote:Copyright: most copyright holders are probably neutral or even positive towards hosting of their long-forgotten works, but there needs to be a robust system of defending the archive against aggressive claims and upholding the public service aspect of such a service (which our legislators continually neglect in order to dole out term extensions to aging pop stars and media companies).


This is the hardest part., especially when the original publisher doesn't exist any more. Is it sufficient when a team of moderators approves the new content (so we are not distributing the latest versions of modern software) and remove software when the copyright holders complain? I think this is like Google does on Youtube (only the removing part). This is something to figure out....

BTW ... what kind of content are we talking about?

paulb wrote:Management: this has to be done in a sustainable and collective way so that we're not relying on a single individual who might lose interest, disappear, forget to renew the domain, or whatever.


I'm pretty sure there are five people here willing to be "the management" :wink:


I run a web (hosting) company. So some of the above issues are not a real problem. Managing the web server, renewing the domain (although it can also be a subdomain like archive.stardot.org.uk), backing up the web server etc can easily be taken care of.

Getting funds can be done by advertising or donations. If that doesn't give enough funds we can also consider paid memberships. But for a start I can donate webspace (50 GB and 1TB traffic) for the first year.
256K + 6502 Inside
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby flibble » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:58 pm

As an aside to having a website with all the bits on, could I also suggest that every 6 months or so, someone makes a torrent of the current archive. That way things can get backed up in a distributed manner across many people.

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby flaxcottage » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:58 pm

@ Arcadian :?:
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer, HP-16C programmer's calculator

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby paulb » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:04 pm

roland wrote:
paulb wrote:Bandwidth: lots of images plus lots of visitors requires high bandwidth (for responsiveness) and thus a high data "allocation", which is where some hosting might fall short.


Would 50GB storage and 1 TB traffic be enough? If we compare to STH ... how much storage and traffic has this site?


A question for somebody else, perhaps. :wink:

roland wrote:
paulb wrote:Copyright: most copyright holders are probably neutral or even positive towards hosting of their long-forgotten works, but there needs to be a robust system of defending the archive against aggressive claims and upholding the public service aspect of such a service (which our legislators continually neglect in order to dole out term extensions to aging pop stars and media companies).


This is the hardest part., especially when the original publisher doesn't exist any more. Is it sufficient when a team of moderators approves the new content (so we are not distributing the latest versions of modern software) and remove software when the copyright holders complain? I think this is like Google does on Youtube (only the removing part). This is something to figure out....


Again, I'd like to hear what the maintainers of STH and other sites have to say about this. STH's continued existence probably means that copyright holders or the people involved in creating the original works (with the actual companies becoming defunct) were mostly OK with those works being hosted, and where there were complaints, they were dealt with constructively.

roland wrote:BTW ... what kind of content are we talking about?


My impression was that it would be all materials related to old products: software, accompanying packaging and documentation, and so on. But I didn't start this thread. :wink:

roland wrote:
paulb wrote:Management: this has to be done in a sustainable and collective way so that we're not relying on a single individual who might lose interest, disappear, forget to renew the domain, or whatever.


I'm pretty sure there are five people here willing to be "the management" :wink:


I run a web (hosting) company. So some of the above issues are not a real problem. Managing the web server, renewing the domain (although it can also be a subdomain like archive.stardot.org.uk), backing up the web server etc can easily be taken care of.


I didn't realise I was talking to Web hosting royalty. :lol:

I think that the most important thing is that many people have access to the management mechanisms so that no single person can block anything. I've seen issues where someone is needed to manage the domain or adjust the DNS, or whatever, and it can result in sites becoming unavailable. (I've also seen squabbling about domains and what I would call domain-squatting by people who claim to be acting in the best interests of a given project, usually dubiously or even plainly dishonestly, so this needs some attention.)

roland wrote:Getting funds can be done by advertising or donations. If that doesn't give enough funds we can also consider paid memberships. But for a start I can donate webspace (50 GB and 1TB traffic) for the first year.


I think there are probably enough people here to consider this worthy enough for donations. One has to be careful not to be considered a commercial operation, I think, because then you might get people vindictively claiming that there's "commercial infringement" occurring because adverts are appearing (or whatever). Again, various other people would know more about walking that tightrope than I do.

iamaran
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby iamaran » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:36 pm

roland wrote:
iamaran wrote:We need to organise. We need an archive and we need funds.


I don't understand exactly what you need funds for? Is that just for the hosting? I can arrange that. Time is also a problem for me, running my business, volunteering at local organisations etc. But I can "donate" webspace for an archive.



I did mean hosting, but also for the purchase of software missing from the archive - and that's getting more expensive.

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby danielj » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:52 pm

Stairway to hell is frozen. Don't take what's missing from there as things that are actually completely missing - it's highly likely someone on here already has a copy of it. Arcadian and Samwise can elaborate, but there has as I understand it always been the intention to expand stardot to include an up to date archive.

D.

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pau1ie
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby pau1ie » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:37 pm

This is something I have been thinking about. I would really like to help work on this.

I am thinking that a database driven archive would be good. Leenew has posted a spreadsheet posted which could form a basis for the database, then we would want to upload the latest disc image for the game, images of artwork, cassette inlay etc. It would allow people to log in and upload stuff.

I dont think there is anything off the shelf that does this. I was looking into knocking something together in Drupal. I think it should be reasonably easy to do something like:

Have a title, and a range of fields like author, publisher, date. A list of associated files, a list of associated images. Choose one image for the main image on the front page. Maybe have one default file for the disc image download. A free text field for controls, a free text field (Or maybe a link to a wiki page) for more information - any historic information, and a list of links for other web pages. Maybe we should have a copyright status field so we can document which titles have been released by their authors (Ideally with links to documentation), which are being actively pursued (Which clearly can't be hosted) and which are presumed abandoned.

Unless someone has a better idea... I have looked into other software repositories. There are things like Apache Allura (https://forge-allura.apache.org/p/allur ... omparison/), but these are more geared towards software development. Library and collection software seems too obsessed with Dublin core which contains some of the fields we would want, but seems difficult to alter, so going for something generic like drupal would allow flexibility in what is stored and how. It also offers user management for free, which we need as this is too much for one person.

Since we have a concrete offer from Roland, can we start with that? Can you provide a database? If we need more than that (Which we will for Arcadians stuff) we will have to cater for that later. Maybe have large files on storage elsewhere and linked across?

I think we need to make a start and solve problems as they come up.

PaulH

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby flaxcottage » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:39 pm

flaxcottage wrote:@ Arcadian :?:


And again @ Arcadian. :)
- John

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby roland » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:48 pm

pau1ie wrote:Since we have a concrete offer from Roland, can we start with that? Can you provide a database? If we need more than that (Which we will for Arcadians stuff) we will have to cater for that later. Maybe have large files on storage elsewhere and linked across?


I can provide a MySQL database, no problem. BTW I don't advise to store large files elsewhere, this makes managing the files more complicated. If 50 GB storage is not enough, we'll work a way out to get 2 TB or so 8)

I agree with you that we can discuss for ages about this topic, but the best way to solve issues is to face them. And it might be a good start for me to convert the Atom Disc Archive on acornatom.nl to the new ATM file-format.

So let's start .... what will the domain name be?
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby daveejhitchins » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:19 pm

Don't forget (as if :roll: ) we'll need to store the versions for different machines and, possibly, the original and any 'fixed' version!

Looking forward to this project =D>

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby flaxcottage » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:43 pm

FESTINA LENTE
- John

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby pau1ie » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:33 pm

roland wrote:And it might be a good start for me to convert the Atom Disc Archive on acornatom.nl to the new ATM file-format.


I am not sure what this means. I did briefly look at the site, it looks more like a desktop application, but I was thinking of creating a website. Are you thinking we can just use the database?

roland wrote:So let's start .... what will the domain name be?


I really don't care. If you own any of the existing domains I am happy for a sub-domain, otherwise maybe sth2.org.uk, acorn8bit.org.uk (Or other tld). I think anything with bbc in would be too confusing and therefore potentially trademark infringing. If anyone can think of something better, go for it.

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danielj
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby danielj » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:39 pm

flaxcottage wrote:FESTINA LENTE

:D
Slow down everyone!

Before anyone spends any money or duplicates effort, there is something brewing around this. It might be wise to hold fire?

d.

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Arcadian
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby Arcadian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:56 pm

Yes, do please hold fire.

There's been a lot happening behind the scenes since last year.

And the StarDot servers have terabytes of space, so hosting isn't an issue.

We created a shared-access drive in December and myself, John (flaxcottage), Leenew and others have been busy adding/sorting new content as well as consolidating/refreshing existing file archives. Currently standing at 15Gb.

We want to put the emphasis on getting the new, core archive in shape (e.g. directory structures, common filenaming, agreed file formats for archiving etc) before even thinking about a web-based front end.

Having said that, if there are people reading that would be willing to help build the site for the new archive, do leave a note in this thread, as we can give you a heads-up on exactly what data, file formats etc that would need catering for. It would definitely be in the long-term interests of the site if we could get a dev-team together! :)
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby Pernod » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:19 pm

Arcadian wrote:Having said that, if there are people reading that would be willing to help build the site for the new archive, do leave a note in this thread, as we can give you a heads-up on exactly what data, file formats etc that would need catering for. It would definitely be in the long-term interests of the site if we could get a dev-team together! :)

Count me in. Not sure what you intend to use as the CMS but am experienced in MySQL, PHP, etc. so can probably assist in whatever you intend to build.
Maybe post a list of core skills you're looking for?
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pau1ie
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby pau1ie » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:05 pm

Arcadian wrote:Yes, do please hold fire.


Holding fire.

Arcadian wrote:We want to put the emphasis on getting the new, core archive in shape (e.g. directory structures, common filenaming, agreed file formats for archiving etc) before even thinking about a web-based front end.


Hang on - you asked me to hold fire on a web front end, but you are not even thinking about it yourself. When do you think we will have something available to use?

Arcadian wrote:Having said that, if there are people reading that would be willing to help build the site for the new archive, do leave a note in this thread, as we can give you a heads-up on exactly what data, file formats etc that would need catering for. It would definitely be in the long-term interests of the site if we could get a dev-team together! :)


I am happy to pool my efforts with you. I am concerned that you will in practice you will get bogged down in trying to create something perfect, and we will end up with nothing. I suppose I am asking, when will I see results of what you are doing? When may I resume fire?

There are no shortage of sites with disc images and information out there. What we need is a comprehensive site with a complete catalogue of software. My vision was a kind of board game geek (Without the commercialism) giving tools to the community to create the catalogue. As a start we could have the fields I mentioned. Later it could be improved with rankings, links to reviews in magazines, links to run the software in jsbeeb. The reason this site is so great is the community, and that is what will be required to make a great catalogue.

Cheers

PaulH
I'm working on http://bbcmicro.co.uk

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Arcadian
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby Arcadian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:34 am

Hi, I'm on the road at the moment, but will reply at the weekend when I'm back home. Cheers.
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk

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iamaran
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Re: Stardot archive

Postby iamaran » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:26 am

Any thoughts on my second point, regarding a fund for the purchase of missing software?

Maybe a specific fundraising subforum could be started? I'd be happy to sell some retro kit that I've picked up on my travels to people on here, with the money going to the cause.

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby pau1ie » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:53 am

Since nobody else has answered Ill give my thoughts. Money takes a lot of effort to manage, the transparency of where it goes and maybe donors have different ideas of what should be done with it than the person managing it.

Its just easier for people to buy software we don't have on their own initiative. You can get support on the forums for transferring it to an uploadable format.
I'm working on http://bbcmicro.co.uk

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby richardtoohey » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:11 pm

pau1ie wrote:maybe donors have different ideas of what should be done with it than the person managing it.
This would be my concern with a central fund - who gets to decide where the money goes? You could have voting systems etc. but it could get very complicated very quickly. Money, who needs it?

People will argue about priorities. Who gets to keep the purchased item(s)? Or do they get on-sold immediately after archiving? What happens if one of the funders wants to make an offer - should that be allowed? Who resolves disputes?

What happens if the fund manager wants to get educational titles ZZZzzzz, and obviously we should be getting games \:D/ ? :lol:

All these questions could be answered, rules made, etc. but could be a lot of work.

Having said that, I'm happy to put money forward for specific goals (as I've done in the past.) "Title X is on eBay, let's pledge £x each to purchase the title, person P will end up with the item if we are successful."
Pernod wrote:Count me in. Not sure what you intend to use as the CMS but am experienced in MySQL, PHP, etc. so can probably assist in whatever you intend to build.
Same here, but obviously I'm a bit further away (if that matters.)

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Re: Stardot archive

Postby flaxcottage » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:42 am

richardtoohey wrote:What happens if the fund manager wants to get educational titles ZZZzzzz, and obviously we should be getting games \:D/ ? :lol:


Philistine! :shock:
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer, HP-16C programmer's calculator


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