Acornsoft C Manuals

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Elminster
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Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:32 pm

As per this post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3361&start=30 I want a copy of the manuals for Acornsoft C. If people dont have time to scan then and have the docs sitting about I am happy to purchase them and then do the scanning.

Regards
Duncan

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby TopBanana » Tue May 05, 2015 2:38 pm

OK, so who outbid me on this ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BBC-Master-Se ... 7675.l2557

If you look in the picture you will see the fabled "Acornsoft C", which was complete except for the 5.25" disk.

Was hoping to obtain so we could get this scanned and into the public domain :(

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danielj
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby danielj » Tue May 05, 2015 3:22 pm

:( (not me)

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CMcDougall
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby CMcDougall » Tue May 05, 2015 6:30 pm

£156 +10PP for spare electron keys is a bit too steep for me [-(
pics again, for a refresher:
Image
Image
ImageImageImage

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby TopBanana » Tue May 05, 2015 7:49 pm

CMcDougall wrote:£156 +10PP for spare electron keys is a bit too steep for me [-(


Typical Scot !

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Tue May 05, 2015 9:14 pm

TopBanana wrote:
CMcDougall wrote:£156 +10PP for spare electron keys is a bit too steep for me [-(


Typical Scot !

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That would be me.

The Electron needs a couple of new keys.

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby IBM portable PC » Wed May 06, 2015 12:20 am

We could ask the seller to point this thread out to the buyer?

......which I've now just done! Fingers crossed, he prefers PDF to yellowing paper............ I can also scan in a professional document scanner if he wants to mail the manual to Australia.
WISH LIST: Acornsoft C Compiler PDF manual, Anything 68008/68000 related, LVL Upgrade manual/ROMS, Watford Floppy Drive Selector, Commodore (CBM) PET ROM/S for CST Procyon IEEE-488 Interface", Beeb on a Eurocard systems

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 8:11 am

But I was the buyer so not a problem. I said on the 'Worth a look' thread I would bid if no one else was.


viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5594&p=111416#p111416

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby TopBanana » Wed May 06, 2015 2:00 pm

Looking forward to the scanned version :-)

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 2:36 pm

TopBanana wrote:Looking forward to the scanned version :-)


My rate is £1 a page per day. Only 250 pages

(Double time on weekends)

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby TopBanana » Wed May 06, 2015 3:48 pm

:shock:

Really ?

I scanned volumes 1 - 10 of the BEEBUG magazines for free (less 1, so I think that's 99 separate magazines).

Can I charge retrospectively at your rate ?

:D

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 4:29 pm

TopBanana wrote::shock:

Really ?

I scanned volumes 1 - 10 of the BEEBUG magazines for free (less 1, so I think that's 99 separate magazines).

Can I charge retrospectively at your rate ?

:D

Thought you charged in Bananas?

I shall only read the BeeBug mags without a Banana icon in future so as not to incur retrospective royalties.

But to answer the original questions. Yes I will OCR scan it but it is big and I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........

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sydney
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby sydney » Wed May 06, 2015 5:24 pm

Elminster wrote:... I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........


That won't be a problem once she finds out you spent £166 to get a manual for a 30 year old piece of software!

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 6:08 pm

sydney wrote:
Elminster wrote:... I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........


That won't be a problem once she finds out you spent £166 to get a manual for a 30 year old piece of software!


1987. So only 28 years old. (Same age as me ..... Maybe)

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby TopBanana » Wed May 06, 2015 7:41 pm

Elminster wrote:But to answer the original questions. Yes I will OCR scan it but it is big and I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........


Man up will ya - show her who's boss :shock: :shock:

And do you really mean random children ? If so, I'll send mine down the road to Weeley (or where ever it is you are, just down the road from me in Colchester) and get them to hang around outside your house in the hope of a bath .... :lol:

sydney wrote:That won't be a problem once she finds out you spent £166 to get a manual for a 30 year old piece of software!


PMSL :lol: :lol:

What's it worth not to tell her .....

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 7:59 pm

TopBanana wrote:
Elminster wrote:But to answer the original questions. Yes I will OCR scan it but it is big and I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........


Man up will ya - show her who's boss :shock: :shock:

And do you really mean random children ? If so, I'll send mine down the road to Weeley (or where ever it is you are, just down the road from me in Colchester) and get them to hang around outside your house in the hope of a bath .... :lol:
.


Generally my own.

Was probably closer yesterday when I used Colchester Station. Has the first train to London leaving at the exciting time of 4:45am.

We could start a North Essex Beeb User Group.

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby IBM portable PC » Wed May 06, 2015 10:19 pm

Elminster wrote:............ Yes I will OCR scan it but it is big and I have a wife who thinks that anyone doing activities involving 30 year old computers should be made to do the washing up, make the dinner, mow the lawn, bath random children, feed the birds, paint the fence, build an Ark .........


If it will help, my offer still stands. Post me the manual and I'll scan it into a 600DPI PDF on my Fujitsu ScanSnap Document Scanner. I'll have to remove the spiral binding however I think I know of a place that can re-bind (I'll check). Or else, for a better end result, I'll have the binding holes guillotined off also. I'll also scan in both black and white and color to ensure everything is captured. I will then post the manual back to you via air mail, or recycle the paper if you'd prefer.
WISH LIST: Acornsoft C Compiler PDF manual, Anything 68008/68000 related, LVL Upgrade manual/ROMS, Watford Floppy Drive Selector, Commodore (CBM) PET ROM/S for CST Procyon IEEE-488 Interface", Beeb on a Eurocard systems

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Wed May 06, 2015 10:36 pm

While electronically copying the book for prosperity is one thing I don't believe in damaging the book when not necessary. So I'll just do the slow non destructive way thanks.

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby richardtoohey » Wed May 06, 2015 11:12 pm

IBM portable PC wrote:remove ... guillotined off ... recycle the paper.
You're not invited to my library! :shock:

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby DutchAcorn » Thu May 07, 2015 4:36 am

Scanning is one thing, OCR can be a bit of a pain. If you can share the scans perhaps we can share the OCR work?

I've been working on and off on the manual for Wave Designer (bit less demand for that :? ) for a few months now. Getting the OCR'd text in the original layout (and correcting OCR errors) is most of the work.
Paul

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Thu May 07, 2015 8:21 am

DutchAcorn wrote:Scanning is one thing, OCR can be a bit of a pain. If you can share the scans perhaps we can share the OCR work?

I've been working on and off on the manual for Wave Designer (bit less demand for that :? ) for a few months now. Getting the OCR'd text in the original layout (and correcting OCR errors) is most of the work.


The scanning software does the OCR and saves direct to a pdf, so not planning on doing anything else after the scan.

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby sirbod » Thu May 07, 2015 8:31 am

DutchAcorn wrote:Getting the OCR'd text in the original layout (and correcting OCR errors) is most of the work.

For the PDF manuals in the JASPP archives I use Adobe Acrobat with 600DPI scans using ClearType. The text usually comes out perfect first time in the original font and layout. I then go back and manually do all the lines as an overlay, correct any images that it's OCR'd and then merge the two PDF's together for the final.

To speed the process up if there's lots of lines / graphics, I'll create two sets of PNG's, one with just the text and one with just the lines / graphics. Again, I'll create two PDF's and merge them together for the final.

From memory the largest manual I've done was around 80 pages and took about 4 hours, the worst to date was the double sided sheet with Repton 3 which took 4 months due to the sheer amount of graphics and 4pt font text - which refused to OCR and needed manual pixel correction and lots of copy/paste to coerce it!

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby richardtoohey » Thu May 07, 2015 8:43 am

Elminster wrote:The scanning software does the OCR and saves direct to a pdf, so not planning on doing anything else after the scan.
Hope it works better than the DVD of Acorn books I bought ... unreadable because of the amount of OCR (I'm assuming) errors. :(

So raw scanned PDFs might be helpful - people can see the raw content before "machine intelligence" (cough) is involved and manually correct any OCR mistakes. But it's your book and your time so :-# from me.

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Thu May 07, 2015 9:01 am

richardtoohey wrote:
Elminster wrote:The scanning software does the OCR and saves direct to a pdf, so not planning on doing anything else after the scan.
Hope it works better than the DVD of Acorn books I bought ... unreadable because of the amount of OCR (I'm assuming) errors. :(

So raw scanned PDFs might be helpful - people can see the raw content before "machine intelligence" (cough) is involved and manually correct any OCR mistakes. But it's your book and your time so :-# from me.


How do you mean unreadable due to OCR errors?

Software I use doesn't corrupt the scan in anyway. Here is a test run I did last night. Some of the pages are 200dpi, some are 300dpi, some are grey scale, some are black and white. Mainly an attempt to keep the size down or the 250 pages manual will come out at a GB in size.

I can up it to 600dpi. I could make every page greyscale, there is no colour in the manual. I could create a baffle to stop light bleed on the scanner due to it being so thick. I could upgrade to OCR software 10 times the cost of what I am using.

Obviously the more work for me adds how long it will take to do. And even the attachment below [Ah, no attachment as even doing this 8 pages currently comes out at 7.5MB, bigger than the 5MB allowed on here] is vastly superior to the Beebug C manual scan, and most people would probably use the Beebug version just because it works on a normal BBC and you dont have to install C into sideways RAM first. (And Acorn C takes up 4 sideways ram slots)

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby richardtoohey » Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 am

Elminster wrote:How do you mean unreadable due to OCR errors?
I mean things like lower case Ls, numeric 1s, capital i's confusing the OCR software. Or the letter O and the number 0.

That was a couple of examples that I can recall - but there were others.

I'd read a sentence and it wouldn't make any sense, so I had read it two or three times again to figure out what letters/words had been mangled. Reading each sentence several times over made for fatiguing reading. Obviously any listings fairly hopeless, and there are usually lots of those in old BBC programming books.

I assumed it was the OCR, but it could have been Mechanical Turk or some other cheap labour that introduced the errors.

Raw scans at least give you a chance to see the original content on the page. (Which is what I think Paul was getting at - with the raw scans you can then use OCR/manually fix any issues, etc.)

If your scanner doesn't have any of those issues, and the OCR is that good, then my experiences utterly irrelevant!

But I was keeping quiet! O:) :-#

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Thu May 07, 2015 9:27 am

It is all a trade off. Doing the OCR at the sametime as the scan adds very little time, and produces a useable copy.

Doing a RAW PDF will take the same time but then need to go to someone else for further processing.

Doing a usable OCR and RAW will obviously take a little bit longer as doing 2 saves (and trying not to get the files mixed up).

Or doing a super duper copy myself on a 250 pages manual at 4 hours per 80 pages is going to take me probably a couple of months. (Plus buying the software).

Perhaps a best practice note needs to be written and made a sticky on the archive submissions topic.

i.e.

- Recommended OCR software for Mac, PC, Linux etc.
- Best process to follow for speed, best process to follow for accuracy
- Best Scan only process, i.e. setting to use of some one else will do the OCR
- Best OCR settings etc.
- Hints and Tips (i.e. what to do when manual so thick you get light bleed etc)

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Thu May 07, 2015 9:42 am

For now I shall do the following (only done 8 pages so will start again)

Do all pages in grey scale to all pages in 600DPI (instead of mixture of 200, 300, B&W and Grey I was playing with).

Take 2 copies of each page 1 simple OCRed and 1 RAW.

Will compress down the final OCR doc when save but will leave the RAW at max quality (it will be enormous).

Then there will be a usable, but not maybe perfected, OCRed document for people to use right away, and then a RAW version for others to play around with processing till they are happy.

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Elminster
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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Sat May 09, 2015 11:26 am

Okay I have created a baffle to cut down the light and I have scanned about 20% at 600DPI greyscale. Not bothering to do OCR at the moment, thought be more important to get a RAW copy out.

File size at present is 90MB. So final file size for RAW will be approx 0.5GB.

Will let you know when done.

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby flibble » Sat May 09, 2015 12:44 pm

We loves you :lol:

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Re: Acornsoft C Manuals

Postby Elminster » Tue May 12, 2015 11:43 am

Post update back on original thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3361&p=111823#p111823


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