Wanted - A3000 IDE podule - CLOSED

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danielj
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Wed May 17, 2017 7:07 am

I've ordered one of those from them and they sent me the wrong bloody thing. Waiting for them to replace with the correct item...

If you hang fire, I should be able to tell you if the castle adapter works with that and a sd to CF converter.

d.

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trixster
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Wed May 17, 2017 7:17 am

Cool, happy to wait!
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

RobC
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby RobC » Wed May 17, 2017 5:28 pm

trixster wrote:One of these?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221077308288

Yes - that exact one.

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danielj
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Fri May 26, 2017 12:19 pm

I can confirm that the castle podule doesn't work with a CF-SD converter or recent SD card reader. I'll be trying it with a two-chip SD card reader as soon as I get a 40-44pin adaptor for mine :(

d.

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trixster
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Sat May 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Argh, that's not good news! :(
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

Zarchos
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Tue May 30, 2017 6:44 am

danielj wrote:I can confirm that the castle podule doesn't work with a CF-SD converter or recent SD card reader. I'll be trying it with a two-chip SD card reader as soon as I get a 40-44pin adaptor for mine :(

d.


Have you tried softloading the Whizzoooooooooooooooooo module ?
If it solves the issue, to me, again, it's not big pain to have a diskette in the disk drive with the machine configured to load it when booting up.

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danielj
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Tue May 30, 2017 7:01 am

Yes, I tried this yesterday... It works with the Wizzo driver. It's not a great hardship, but it's nicer not to have to rely on old media, or mechanical floppy drives. Looking at the castle podule, I do wonder if it'd be possible to carefully desolder the rom, pop on a socket, and replace it with an eeprom that has the idefs module in it as well as the ide driver...

d.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Tue May 30, 2017 8:20 am

danielj wrote:Yes, I tried this yesterday... It works with the Wizzo driver. It's not a great hardship, but it's nicer not to have to rely on old media, or mechanical floppy drives. Looking at the castle podule, I do wonder if it'd be possible to carefully desolder the rom, pop on a socket, and replace it with an eeprom that has the idefs module in it as well as the ide driver...

d.


It's true it would be a great achievement for the community.

steve3000
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby steve3000 » Tue May 30, 2017 8:59 am

danielj wrote:I do wonder if it'd be possible to carefully desolder the rom, pop on a socket, and replace it with an eeprom that has the idefs module in it as well as the ide driver...

Certainly possible as long as the Castle EPROM is large enough to accommodate the Wizzo ROM (or the board can support a larger EPROM). You'll need to extract the relocatable modules from the original ROM and extract the Podule ROM loader code and header information. The latter can be tricky - however, I built some tools a while ago which will help, if you do decide to desolder and dump out an image of the Castle EPROM.

Happy to help give this a go, but I don't have a Castle interface so can't help any testing :(

See attached ROM tools (these are in BASIC and run under RISC OS 3). I originally coded these to work with extension ROMs (extracting and rebuilding), but there's a lot of similarity between Extension ROMs and Podule ROMs - so last year I expanded these tools to extract and rebuild Podule ROMs successfully when I was looking at various versions of IDEFS/IDEFiler from the ARCIN/A3IN podules.

From memory, to extract and rebuild a podule ROM yourself, you will need to extract the "Loader", "description" and all modules from the original IDE card ROM and also make a note of all the other Podule information provided by the extractor tool (note: the "Loader" is in the first chunk directory, offset=0 and modules should be in a second chunk directory). When you rebuild the ROM image, make sure to use the same loader file, product code, manufacturer code, description and then choose the same '2nd chunk offset' for your modules. ...It's also useful to refer to the RO3 PRMs page 4-116 onwards for details of the ROM layouts.

The above should work assuming Castle have written their loader code in a generic way that copies across (from podule ROM to RAM) all modules in the second chunk directory... If not, you may be able to 'borrow' a loader from a different podule which does this correctly (such as the A3IN IDE podule), however if the Castle podule does anything unique to initialise the podule from its loader code, this route may need tweaking to work.

Let me know if you try going down this route, and if anything above isn't clear.
Attachments
ROMtools_v1-1.zip
RISC OS 3 Extn / Podule ROM build tools
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Zarchos
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Tue May 30, 2017 11:05 am

If space is tight on the Eprom is it possible to !Squash the modules and have 'just' a piece of code calling Squash to unzip the zipped contents to RAM ?

I don't know much about podules, as you can read.

steve3000
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby steve3000 » Tue May 30, 2017 1:23 pm

Zarchos wrote:If space is tight on the Eprom is it possible to !Squash the modules and have 'just' a piece of code calling Squash to unzip the zipped contents to RAM ?

I don't know much about podules, as you can read.

Definitely possible :) - if you write a suitable loader...but actually that's a very good point. It could well be that the Castle EPROM already uses this approach with each module in a compressed format, and decompression taking place when transferring from ROM to RAM. If that is the case, then unless you know the exact compression format and can compress the wizzo code in the same format, then you won't be able to 're-use' the loader. The later ARCIN IDE podule ROMs use a decompressor/loader like this, so when I was experimenting with ARCIN/A3IN ROMs I reverted to the earlier ARCIN loader code which just copies and installs modules without and decompression.

Hopefully the Castle ROMs follow the simple example code in the PRMs, which doesn't include decompression...

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:56 am

Browsing Ebay brings some good news : a DOM will work with an A3020 and thus with the Castle board.
I let you find the auction on Ebay where this solution is offered for about 3 to 4 times its real cost ...

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:04 am

Zarchos, there are a variety of DOMs, is there a particular make that's known to work?

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:25 am

danielj wrote:Zarchos, there are a variety of DOMs, is there a particular make that's known to work?


I'll check with mine (yes I know I'm late, sorry) but to find 512 Mbytes or 1 Gbyte they will be, by definition, old enough to work with the Castle board (low capacity -> old stuff) ... or any other board of the Archie era.
In fact reading the specs will give you the solution.
Either the seller gives them or Google will deliver the infos.

I never understood why people absolutely want CF or SD solutions when the DOM solution exists and doesn't require any kind of adaptors (more than doubling the possibility of incompatibility : 1/x * 1/y).
If we were to pull in / pull out the storage to use the whole thing as a removable solution, ok, it would make sense ; but in our case it's to use as a fixed hard drive ...

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Simply price! (and I personally confess I wasn't awareness of DOMs or the extents of their compatibility until the last couple of years or so).

d.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:21 pm

danielj wrote:Simply price! (and I personally confess I wasn't awareness of DOMs or the extents of their compatibility until the last couple of years or so).

d.


You would say 'availability' I'd answer 'yes'.
Check rhe price of low capacity DOMs on Ebay : they are vert cheap.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:54 am

I like sd/cf cards as you can simply remove them and back them up / reflash them on a peecee with win32imager.
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby 1ST1 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:49 am

The Archimedes was the best computer to own in the late 80ies and early 90ies!!! (But then came Atari Falcon with ct60e turbo card with 68060 at 95 Mhz...)

So I am also interested in IDE interface for A3000, also for A410/I.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:51 am

1ST1 wrote:The Archimedes was the best computer to own in the late 80ies and early 90ies!!! (But then came Atari Falcon with ct60e turbo card with 68060 at 95 Mhz...)

So I am also interested in IDE interface for A3000, also for A410/I.


And I quite agree.
Falcon always looked fantastic to me.

Sorry all I'm very late for everything.
Various silly things in the real life (like having some trees cut in house #2) these past days.
Understanding everybody wants a clean and neat solution, I'm about to order some DOMs to test them and make sure you don't end up with an IDE interface, but no working mass storage ...

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:58 am

No rush Zarchos, sometimes life has to take over, even from important Acorn activities!

Once this thread's lifespan has completed it might be a good idea to trim all the useful details and findings and put them into a sticky in the 32bit hardware subforum? That would save other people searching for A3000 ide info having to delve into random "Wanted" threads.
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:01 am

I can confirm that a CT60e-equipped Falcon is a wonderful thing!

Here's my beauty:

IMG_4819.JPG
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:13 am

trixster wrote:No rush Zarchos, sometimes life has to take over, even from important Acorn activities!

Once this thread's lifespan has completed it might be a good idea to trim all the useful details and findings and put them into a sticky in the 32bit hardware subforum? That would save other people searching for A3000 ide info having to delve into random "Wanted" threads.


Yes, it's also an idea I had ... between the various makers of Acorn (mini)podules, the various mass storage from various brands ; how many partitions one can get, etc ...
The community needs that, for sure. (including latest firmware versions, and software too including formating/partitioning Tools ; and what the Partis software can offer).

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby 1ST1 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:23 am

Another ct60e owner. :) Here is mine, and how I mounted a Pentium cooler: http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=31324 (And now hoping for SuperVidel card or adequate alternative!)

Archimedes seems to be the less documented high-end homecomputer in Internet. It's really difficult for me to find informations and software. But for software I haven't searched detailed yet, specially I want to see demos, but also games and productive apps. For the Atari and Amiga, C64 I have so much as i never can test all in my life, but for Archi just about 50 floppy disks which came with them.

(ps: are you the same trixter as on vcfed.org forum?)
It's not a bug, it's a feature.

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trixster
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby trixster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:38 pm

Negative. I'm trixster, not trixter
A3020 | A3000 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
BBC Master Turbo + DC | Atom | A1200 060 | A500 | Jaguar | A420/1
A4000/040 060 | Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby matt_nottm » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:53 am

Zarchos wrote:Browsing Ebay brings some good news : a DOM will work with an A3020 and thus with the Castle board.
I let you find the auction on Ebay where this solution is offered for about 3 to 4 times its real cost ...


I wondered where the questions for the auction were coming from. I've updated the auction with the facts, rather than the conjecture in the thread.

If any stardot members would like to buy a 2GB DOM partitioned and formatted to 512MB to work natively with an A3020, this includes the correct cable and conversion board as the DOM expects to be connected directly to the motherboard and the A3020 does not have enough clearance. Please PM me and I'll accept £52 via PayPal posted to the UK. This is cost after PayPal fees and postage. If someone can offer them for 3 to 4 times cheaper, then please do! It is over half the price of the CJE alternatives, I thought I was helping the community.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:15 pm

Matt - it is helpful when people make these things available. What would really help too is a list of DOMs, and their manufacturers, that are known to work with the A30x0/A4000 IDE interfaces (and consequently the RiscPC ones no doubt). Would you be willing to add your knowledge to such a list?

(and DOMs aren't that cheap to start with, not the ones from reputable brands!)

d.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:21 pm

I have been very mean then ?
From China the DOM costs less than 20 euros inc. shipping ... if you buy a few and negotiate the price it will easily be under 12 each.
The ribbon must be 4 euros and the male to male adaptor less than 50 cents if you order 10.

But accept my apologies, I can understand you didn t pay these prices if you ordered from a reseller in either the UK or Germany, where price is Chinese price x 2 or x 3.

What worried me in the advert was the SSD statement, when it is simply a DOM.

As for CJE, well you can see how much they ask for the IFEL 4 Mbyte A3010 RAM expansion . . . I understand one must earn some money and we live in a free world, but it is more than 3 times IFEL's price ... They bought the stock as I did some years ago for the A3000 RAM expansion, and hey, easy : x3.
Last edited by Zarchos on Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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danielj
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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby danielj » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:35 pm

Zarchos wrote:From China the DOM costs less than 20 euros inc. shipping ... if you buy a few and negotiate the price it will easily be under 12 each.
The ribbon must be 4 euros and the male to male adaptor less than 50 cents if you order 10.


The problem here is you don't always know what you're getting, and what you get isn't always what it says it is on the tin even if it behaves like it to all intents and purposes...

d.

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby Zarchos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:59 pm

danielj wrote:
Zarchos wrote:From China the DOM costs less than 20 euros inc. shipping ... if you buy a few and negotiate the price it will easily be under 12 each.
The ribbon must be 4 euros and the male to male adaptor less than 50 cents if you order 10.


The problem here is you don't always know what you're getting, and what you get isn't always what it says it is on the tin even if it behaves like it to all intents and purposes...

d.


Yes I agree ... now don t forget the 'LOL price' or 'LOL description' thread is a place, to me, to privately (inside the space of this forum) chill out.
If you propose your Acorn stuff on this great forum, and not on Ebay, you won't suffer the same treatment ;-)

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Re: Wanted - A3000 IDE podule

Postby matt_nottm » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:30 pm

danielj wrote:Matt - it is helpful when people make these things available. What would really help too is a list of DOMs, and their manufacturers, that are known to work with the A30x0/A4000 IDE interfaces (and consequently the RiscPC ones no doubt). Would you be willing to add your knowledge to such a list?

(and DOMs aren't that cheap to start with, not the ones from reputable brands!)

d.


Hi certainly, happy to share the facts.

NOTE: This is my own direct experience, others may have had a better success rate, a quicker process, or may understand the technical issues behind the findings below

The only manufacturer that I have managed to find that works on an A3020/A4000/A5000 internal IDE interface with native ADFS is Transcend; however, it is not that simple.

Out of all the Transcend DOM's I've tried, only two have worked:

1. The 44pin TS2GPTM720 2GB vertical module (it is even more specific, the OLDER modules which have labels with multiple dark grey lines and a coloured flash for capacity DO NOT work. You need the newer modules which have Transcend in a red flash across the top, a metallic silver backing and the capacity written in plain black). I can speak some limited Mandarin, but try explaining that to a cheap Chinese re-seller when both old and new modules have the same part number! ;-)

2. The 40pin TS128MPTM520 128GB vertical module. (In this case, I have only tried the OLDER modules which have labels with multiple dark grey lines and a coloured flash for capacity, this this case, they DO work!) Confusing, I know.

What doesn't work:

1. Transcend 1 GB PATA Flash Module 1GB - Not sure of the part number -(I was really hoping this did, as it is a horizontal mount and would fit under the A3020 metal shielding.
2. Transcend 1GB IDE Flash Module 1GB - TS1GDOM40V-S SLC OR TS1GPTM520
3. Transcend 512MB 44PIN Ide Flash Module - TS512MDOM40V-S SLC OR TS512MPTM520

I have tried formatting ALL modules using three different versions of !HForm the A3020 with the disc geometry instructions on this form, and none of the modules worked.

I then purchased the Partis PowerIDE product to see if that helped.

Partis PowerIDE identified ALL of the modules above, it would NOT initialise the 'Transcend 1 GB PATA Flash Module', but would everything else; however the modules listed above as not working ALL hung when trying to access any of the ADFS formatted partitions. Disc Free Space would work.

Interestingly, for the modules that do not work, they all have multiple ` back tick characters in the identification string, this may or may not be relevant.

For the modules that work, the process is to initialise, partition, format with PowerIDE, reboot, format with standard ADFS !HForm and volia. That process takes about 15 minutes end to end. If you do not do the second !HForm format, the first partition gives errors when using natively under ADFS.

With the native ADFS you can only access the first partition, but it does NOT need PowerIDE or Whizo to work; however, if you have them they can access all partitions.

So a little complex, but I hope that helps provide concrete facts surrounding the DOMs use.

As for pricing, one may be able to buy cheaper from Chinese or Hong Kong based suppliers; however I bought from:

Amazon - Transcend TS2GPTM720 2GB IDE SLC memory card - £39.03
eBay - Sintech 2set 44pin IDE male to male extension adapter card+10cms cable 4 DOM SSD - £6 (each)
= £45 then to cover postage, and PayPal fees, let alone the cost of re-selling the DOMs that didn't work, the cost of the PowerIDE, etc, etc

If someone can supply them cheaper, then please do as I'm sure the community would really appreciate it.

As for the question if a SATA or PATA DOM (Disk on Module) is an SSD (Solid State Drive) or not, from my Google searching, the consensus is that it is indeed a SSD; however concern is raised about cheaper Chinese DOMs with low cost/low quality MLC NAND chips instead of SLC. As you can see from this tech-spec, the Transcend ones have the higher quality SLC based chips:

https://us.transcend-info.com/Embedded/Products/No-531

I'm unsure if there are any other differences I've missed, but I am always happy to learn...


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