ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

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hoglet
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby hoglet » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:03 am

Hi Martin,

I tried the 220pF capacitor, and it didn't resolve the problem, i.e. I still saw write response faults reported by MMFS. :(

On the scope, the effect was to shift the 60ns glitch back in time by about 20ns, but not eliminate it.

I then re-instated my original patch that bypassed the clock regeneration circuit:
- Bend out IC1 pin 24 (CS1) and wire to VCC
- Bend out IC1 pin 25 (Phi2) and wire to IC4 pin 2 (delayed Phi0)

With this in place, everything is working correctly, from cold with my "worst" 6522.

I think the difficulty in trying fix the existing circuit with capacitance is that the delay (from clock to QD) of the 74LS393 is very large. My data sheet says worst case of 60ns, which is basically a whole 16MHz clock cycle. The result being the phase of this clock (wrt Phi0) is quite ill-defined, and will vary quite a bit with voltage and temperature. The circuit suggested by Acorn (and published on page 227 of the Electron Advanced User Guide) uses a different type of counter, the 74LS163, that is more constrained. This was also the circuit that was used in the original AP5. Of course, it is more complicated:
16to1.png

http://www.pa3byb.nl/images/PA3BYB-basi ... f#page=227

I'm happy to keep running my EUP from a variable clock. Nothing I intend to do is going to be affected by the 6522 timers not running at 1MHz.

I'm still waiting for someone else to replicate the problem. It's still just possible this is peculiar to my set up. Just to re-iterate, it only seems to affect writes to the SD Card, and the *FORM command seems the most reliable way to reproduce it.

By the way, you don't actually need any MMC hardware to reproduce the clock glitch. Just loading the ROM (U/EMMFS) from the latest release:
https://github.com/hoglet67/MMFS/releases
and doing *CAT is sufficient. You'll get a Card? error, but you should be able to see the clock glitch. If your scope has pulse width triggering, set it to trigger on positive clock pulses < 100ns in duration. It would be interesting to see if the capacitor mod has eliminated all such pulses in your setup. It didn't in mine.

Dave

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby MartinB » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:31 am

Thanks very much for the testing Dave - I guess I'll have to keep playing then.... :wink:

I can happily reproduce the glitches just by any accessing of the 6522 and I would think it probably doesn't matter from where that access originates. I've been using UPURS and *UPXROM 0 F to dummy send serial images of all 16 sideways roms to the PC because the default handshakes don't require a PC to be present so you get about a minute of relatively intense 6522 access. Doing this, I can readily see the glitches which on my kit, went away with the addtion of the cap :roll: . I will though try the MMFS rom as you suggest in case there are any subtle differences. I was well aware of the Acorn solution (although they themselves don't have a great track record with glitches) but I'd originally thought I could manage with a simpler (fewer chips) method and indeed, although I knew about the glitches, I have never found anything that didn't work happily with EUP until MMFS came along. As you suggest, it may be that nobody will ever care about accurate 6522 timing and so bypassing the clock-switcher might keep everyone happy - ironically, I myself did have a few projects that used the timer capability which was what drove me to try and normalise the clock in the first place.

Thanks again 8)

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby hoglet » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:03 pm

As a sanity check, I also tried Duikkie's Elk version of SmartSPI (Smelk3006) and that also suffered the same problems.

Dave

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby roland » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:53 pm

roland wrote:
hoglet wrote:Roland, I'll be very interested to see whether you have any issues with the SD Card interface.
Are you planning to use MMFS?


At the moment I'm very busy with lots of things, so it will take a while before I build this interface. I'm not sure which FS I'm going to use. MMC on the Elk is completely new for me. Of course, I'll keep you informed when I have made some progress.


Today I completed my board but I have some issues. I have the MMFS rom in a 27128 eprom. If the eprom is enabled, the Elk just clears the screen at startup and that's it. When I put the eprom in another SWROM board then it works fine. When I put another, known working rom, on the EUP board then the Elk also hangs or just doesn't recognise the ROM.

With the MMFS in another SWROM board and Charlie's BeebMMC connected I only get CARD? errors. However, I can peek and poke to the VIA port (e.g. make ports all output and after writing a value I can read that value back).

So I have to figure out some issues. Luckily the weather forecasts are not so good.....
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby hoglet » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:31 pm

Roland,

Which MMFS version (1.36 is the latest) and build (e.g. U/EMMFS.rom) are you using?

Which User Port are you connecting to? (It needs to be Port B, which is PL2)

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby CMcDougall » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:04 pm

if another known good rom does same, then it can't be the MMFS rom/version#
a blown rom will need the jumper3 (bottom near gold strip) put to edge of board, /nearer gold strip for EEPROM 256
also can't mine if Jumper1&2 also need changed, but the manual is here with jumpers positions:
http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/ ... RSv1.0.pdf
ImageImageImage

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:59 pm

The problem with the EPROM socket on the EUP must be a problem with one or more pins (or as Colin says, the selection jumpers). As the CPU appears to be able to read something, but not able to read the correct data - hence the symptoms you are getting.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby MartinB » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:37 pm

For a 27128, you need all jumpers East as viewed from the component side of the board. If that doesn't work and the eprom is good, there must be a build problem with the EUP board or else a Plus 1 fault.

EUP Jumpers.JPG

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby roland » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:54 pm

hoglet wrote:Roland,

Which MMFS version (1.36 is the latest) and build (e.g. U/EMMFS.rom) are you using?

Which User Port are you connecting to? (It needs to be Port B, which is PL2)

Dave


I used 1.36 (downloaded today) and connected the MMC to both ports. Just to be sure. The build is E/EMMFS.rom. If that's the wrong build then the card? errors can be explained.

I did see (and read :wink: ) the manual and tried all eight combinations of the jumpers. As an other swrom board works I don't think it's a plus1 issue so I will ckeck my EUP board for a start.
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby hoglet » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:51 am

roland wrote:I used 1.36 (downloaded today) and connected the MMC to both ports. Just to be sure. The build is E/EMMFS.rom. If that's the wrong build then the card? errors can be explained.

Yes, that's definitely the wrong build. The "E" builds are for the Electron Printer Port.

You need to use "U/EMMFS.rom" (which is a User Port build, with the via address at &FCB0)

For future reference, the complete release structure is explained here:
https://github.com/hoglet67/MMFS/wiki/Release-structure

Dave

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby roland » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:09 pm

That explains why the via even isn't initialised. I'll make a new rom this week.

I had a tbouroug visual inspection of my solder work and there is no indication of bad joint.
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:34 am

Was a workable solution ever finalised regarding the timing issues mentioned about using MMC/SD solutions.

I've just bought two of Charlie's quite frankly awesome SD card readers and was wondering what ROM is the best to use with them and if any board modification is required on the EUP?

BTW : I still have a few of these boards available if anybody wants one.

Alex :wink:

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby hoglet » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:38 am

Hi Alex,
sixxdog_uk wrote:Was a workable solution ever finalised regarding the timing issues mentioned about using MMC/SD solutions.

So far, I'm the only one who has experienced any issues, and then only with formatting and saving. Some people, like Colin, have been using this for years without issues. It does seem to be somewhat dependant on the particular 6522 you use.

I have a work around that I'm happy with, but it's probably worth getting a few more data points before proceeding.

Dave

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby MartinB » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:16 am

In think anyway since Dave (hoglet) has only experienced problems when writing to the SD card, if you're just running games without any saving back then I presume there wouldn't be an issue. That said and even though Dave's apparently the only sufferer at the moment, I am still on the case and am looking at various solutions whilst trying to keep any potential 'fix' nice and straightforward.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby roland » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:21 pm

I have MMFS now running without any errors (for now). I use an unmodified UPRR board with U/EMMFS v1.36.
It reads files from the MMC card and I could also format a disk, write a small program to this disk, power cycle the Electron and load the small program without any errors. I could also write a large file (&2000 - &4000) without errors and also *VERIFY shows no errors.

My VIA is an UM6522A.

So now I only have to figure out why the EPROM cannot be installed on my board....

My EPROM is now working on the board. There was an issue with the +5V ... let's call it an error in the documentation.

The letter that accompanies my board states:
documentation wrote:The following parts are optional and not required for battery backup: B1, B1h, D3, D4 and R4.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. D3 IS STILL REQUIRED OR NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY A WIRE because it's the source for +5V for the EPROM :mrgreen:

If you ordered a kit and soldered all parts to the pcb you probably didn't notice this. However, I ordered a bare pcb and left out the optional parts for battery backup. So I encountered some problems. After soldering a small piece of wire instead of D3 the board works fine \:D/

BTW: if you're complete new to MMFS, you still need a BEEB.MMB file which contains the disk images. You can download one from here: download/file.php?id=29014
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby MartinB » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:58 pm

Thanks for that Roland, good news... :D

This does actually fit with all my development testing experiences (albeit non-MMC) but even so, I do still have a little tweak in mind to kill the glitches in case anyone has an affected set-up such as Dave has found.

I've always made quite clear the need for the D3 wire link replacement so for these second batch boards, I'm firmly blaming the franchisee. I won't name him but his initials are Alex.....

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:35 pm

[state the obvious] When fault finding, it's wise to check that any suspect chips have power on their power pins and that 0V/ground pin(s) are/is actually connected to the the system 0V [/state the obvious] :lol:

Roland, good that your EUP board is now working okay :D

Yes. Martin did say (somewhere) in his original (great) long thread....!!!

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:28 am

MartinB wrote:Thanks for that Roland, good news... :D

This does actually fit with all my development testing experiences (albeit non-MMC) but even so, I do still have a little tweak in mind to kill the glitches in case anyone has an affected set-up such as Dave has found.

I've always made quite clear the need for the D3 wire link replacement so for these second batch boards, I'm firmly blaming the franchisee. I won't name him but his initials are Alex.....



Doh! :lol:

I fully expected people to blindly solder all the supplied components in place .

I shall edit the documentation accordingly.

If it was me and I happened to have the correct size and gauge Diode neatly supplied in a bag , I know which one I'd use :roll:

That said Roland didn't have my bag of bits as he just bought a blank board, so didn't have the option to just solder everything in its place .

However , I could (could try) and say I only supplied the diode so people could cut the leg off and use it as a link wire. :wink:

I dunno , customers always fussy , expecting things to work. LoL
Last edited by sixxdog_uk on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:33 am

roland wrote:I have MMFS now running without any errors (for now). I use an unmodified UPRR board with U/EMMFS v1.36.
It reads files from the MMC card and I could also format a disk, write a small program to this disk, power cycle the Electron and load the small program without any errors. I could also write a large file (&2000 - &4000) without errors and also *VERIFY shows no errors.

My VIA is an UM6522A.

So now I only have to figure out why the EPROM cannot be installed on my board....

My EPROM is now working on the board. There was an issue with the +5V ... let's call it an error in the documentation.

The letter that accompanies my board states:
documentation wrote:The following parts are optional and not required for battery backup: B1, B1h, D3, D4 and R4.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. D3 IS STILL REQUIRED OR NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY A WIRE because it's the source for +5V for the EPROM :mrgreen:

If you ordered a kit and soldered all parts to the pcb you probably didn't notice this. However, I ordered a bare pcb and left out the optional parts for battery backup. So I encountered some problems. After soldering a small piece of wire instead of D3 the board works fine \:D/

BTW: if you're complete new to MMFS, you still need a BEEB.MMB file which contains the disk images. You can download one from here: download/file.php?id=29014




Sorry Roland , I'll alter the docs, in my defence it does say in the build docs in Paul's page about the link wire. ;)

But that said , I'll add a part explaining if you choose not to use my lovely diode , a link needs to go in its place.

But you were probably caught out as you bought a blank board. :D

It was a deliberate mistake to test your skills I knew you would easily solve it, honest. :^o

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby roland » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:50 am

Thanks for all your support, useful hints and excuses :lol:

Checking the voltage on the eprom was the first thing I did - it took me only a few days to start checking. Customers are always fuzzy, expect them to do the unexpected (such as not buying a diode, leaving out optional components or even reading the supplied documentation :!: ).

It was a nice challenge to get it working and I only posted my feedback about D3 to inform people who don't read manuals or are not very experienced in solving electronic issues.
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:44 pm

roland wrote:Thanks for all your support, useful hints and excuses :lol:

Checking the voltage on the eprom was the first thing I did - it took me only a few days to start checking. Customers are always fuzzy, expect them to do the unexpected (such as not buying a diode, leaving out optional components or even reading the supplied documentation :!: ).

It was a nice challenge to get it working and I only posted my feedback about D3 to inform people who don't read manuals or are not very experienced in solving electronic issues.



:lol:

Pleased you got it sorted in the end mate

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby waltermixxx » Sun May 14, 2017 8:28 pm

Howdy, definitely late to this party. Although I hand wired one of these on a trimmed down Apple II prototyping board and it worked first go, I love the look of this board. How much would it be to send me a bare board to Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Postal code M5S 2X9.

Very sharp!

Cheers.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby marcusjambler » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:35 am

Hi

Please put me down for a built board including serial usb cable

Marcus

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:47 am

waltermixxx wrote:Howdy, definitely late to this party. Although I hand wired one of these on a trimmed down Apple II prototyping board and it worked first go, I love the look of this board. How much would it be to send me a bare board to Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Postal code M5S 2X9.

Very sharp!

Cheers.



Hi,

Sorry for the slow reply the wife has been in hospital so things have been a crazy.

The boards are £7.50 and international tracked postage would be £15.99

Drop me a PM if you want one mate.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby 1024MAK » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:55 am

sixxdog_uk wrote:
waltermixxx wrote:Howdy, definitely late to this party. Although I hand wired one of these on a trimmed down Apple II prototyping board and it worked first go, I love the look of this board. How much would it be to send me a bare board to Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Postal code M5S 2X9.

Very sharp!

Cheers.



Hi,

Sorry for the slow reply the wife has been in hospital so things have been a crazy.

The boards are £7.50 and international tracked postage would be £15.99

Drop me a PM if you want one mate.


Whoa, Alex, I nearly fell off my seat! :shock:

If the bare board and packet fits in the Royal Mails "large letter" category, there are lower cost options.

Royal Mail define a Large Letter as:
  • Max length: 35.3cm
  • Max width: 25cm
  • Max thickness: 2.5cm
  • Max weight: 750g (but see prices below)
I used the "up to 100g" option and the Royal Mail web site produced this list I prices (I cropped the silly high price options off):-
IMG_4819.JPG
Royal Mail prices for up to 100g

Mark
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby sixxdog_uk » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:34 pm

1024MAK wrote:
sixxdog_uk wrote:
waltermixxx wrote:Howdy, definitely late to this party. Although I hand wired one of these on a trimmed down Apple II prototyping board and it worked first go, I love the look of this board. How much would it be to send me a bare board to Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Postal code M5S 2X9.

Very sharp!

Cheers.



Hi,

Sorry for the slow reply the wife has been in hospital so things have been a crazy.

The boards are £7.50 and international tracked postage would be £15.99

Drop me a PM if you want one mate.


Whoa, Alex, I nearly fell off my seat! :shock:

If the bare board and packet fits in the Royal Mails "large letter" category, there are lower cost options.

Royal Mail define a Large Letter as:
  • Max length: 35.3cm
  • Max width: 25cm
  • Max thickness: 2.5cm
  • Max weight: 750g (but see prices below)
I used the "up to 100g" option and the Royal Mail web site produced this list I prices (I cropped the silly high price options off):-
IMG_4819.JPG
Mark



Cheers for that Mark , last one i sent to the Netherlands cost me £11.49 i think it was , but that was for a full kit , they get very fussy about the thickness of the envelopes , sometimes they say , thats fine , large letter , other they class it as a small parcel.

I'll double check with the post office and get a definite price to Canada.

I only ever charge actual shipping plus packaging etc. if it turns out I've made a cock up , I'm happy to refund extra postage :)

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:46 am

If you regularly send packets of large letter size, it's worthwhile making your own "slot" to check thickness. A bit of planed wood from a DIY store screwed together does the job. Or use suitable non-flexible plastic glued together :wink:

Mark
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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby waltermixxx » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:35 am

Howdy, was the shipping to Canada price worked out?, I've been on vacation for much of July. :0).

Cheers.

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby uniforix » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:06 pm

Interested please, full build with cable, I has no DIY skills :-).

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Re: ELECTRON User Port & ROM/RAM Board with UPURS - NOW AVAILABLE

Postby MartinB » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Has anyone seen or heard from Alex lately ? He's been a bit thin on the ground recently.....?


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