New version of Frogger (was: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb)

new games to be launched and discussed here
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ash73
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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby ash73 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:10 pm

That's superb! Graphics are silky smooth and love the sound too =D>

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby sirmorris » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:22 am

:shock: WOW :shock:

Top work!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby fwibbler » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:59 pm

This is a great recreation of this game Tricky. Thanks.
I think the collision detection of getting frogs home is about right now.
The cursor keys is a small issue, but not a major one for me as there's no fire button or anything like that to deal with.
It really does feel arcade-like.
Great!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:44 pm

Thanks, still with (the temporary) cursor keys, but now with the "lady" frog to "rescue" at RS ;)
Last edited by tricky on Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:53 pm

Added a second faster clear routine for the frog when not leaping to get the time under 1/50th of a second and stop the occasional flickering on frogger.

Still with cursor keys for movement.

.ssd at RetroSoftware, demo22.zip


URL:http://youtu.be/8TLK6-xJphM

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Rich Talbot-Watkins
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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby Rich Talbot-Watkins » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:21 am

Fantastic =D>

This has to be one of the best games on the BBC, to be honest! It's a technical miracle!!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby leenew » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:20 am

Yep. This is a stupendous effort! =D>
How many bytes do you have left Tricky?
My wish list would be the "kwa-kwa-kwak" sound when the frog gets home, and a simple start screen. [-o<

Lee.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby ThomasHarte » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:48 pm

Would it be inappropriate to enquire of technical details? Are each of those segments CRTC splits; if so then is the grass at the bottom actually the same region of memory as the grass in the middle?

Armchair coding is a lot easier than actual coding.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:40 pm

Thanks guys.
Still got over 1/2 a K left, just need to try and code up the sound and I'm rubbish at sound :roll:
I started doing a splash/load screen, but got distracted thinking how to write a teletext editor that would suit me.
Each character row (8 pixels) is it's own "screen", but only so I can have a non displayed gap at the sides to save clipping the sprites. It does make the code more simple, but I'm not sure it makes it any faster. The actual memory is the same layout as if it had been set to 256x256, so both lots of grass are separate. There is no hardware scrolling, as nothing ever moves at 4 pixels per 1/50th of a second, everything is just plain old software.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby ThomasHarte » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:12 pm

That makes sense; if you have four logs (or whatever) on a line then it's fairly easy to resolve the sub-byte scrolling problem but I can't see how you could avoid losing huge amounts of memory to run-off areas in order to get proper wraparound.

... a split (or two) to duplicate the grass might save a kilobyte or so though, mightn't it?

Again, with the disclaimer: it's easy to shout this stuff out. Virtually no talent is required whatsoever for my side of the conversation.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:52 pm

leenew, half your wish list is implemented, with as near as possible the correct timing for "kwa-kwa-kwak" - see demo24.zip over at RS http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=978&p=7508#p7508.
ThomasHarte, The grass actually repeats every 32 pixels, so I just store that. If I understand your question, you can only set screen wraparound to 8, 10, 16 or 20KB and even if you could make it 32 pixels, you would get multiple frogs!
The arcade game is 224x256, so is mine and to keep the maths easy, I set the screen lines to be 256 pixels or 2 pages apart, so yes, it does waste 32 pixels, but keeps everything simple. The maximum width of any of the "sprites" 32 pixels, with each one wrapping around when it goes off the end (and leaving most of its old self on the next row - hidden).

I think that I need to balance the tune vs effects volumes, I haven't as I was sticking with rockmanx2002's envelopes, which are mostly near full volume.

PS, I could talk all day about beeb coding, and if it gets too technical, we can go over to the thread above.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby ThomasHarte » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:08 pm

Just fully to explain the probably bad idea that I'm so obsessed with:

You would use a CRTC split so that the memory area dictated by the CRTC to source the area of the screen that contains the middle patch of grass is the same as the memory area used to source the bottom patch of grass.

So in memory your frame buffer might look like:

[scores]
[logs]
[central grass]
[road]
[lives]

You'd generate two address reloads so that the displayed output was:

[scores]
[logs]
[central grass]
[road]
*address reload*
[repetition of central grass]
*address reload*
[lives]

Supposing the grass were 16px high and given that the whole display is 256px high, you'd therefore have 240 lines in memory but be putting 256 lines on screen. So 16*80 bytes of memory are saved. But only if you can find an appropriate moment to erase and redraw the frog, of course, and if you can afford to make it something that definitely is erased and redrawn every frame, and if redrawing it takes less than the time the raster takes to get to the top of the bottom grass from the bottom of the top.

I'm very close to answering my own question. Apologies for the diversion.

EDIT: missed these wise words:
tricky wrote:PS, I could talk all day about beeb coding, and if it gets too technical, we can go over to the thread above.

That's a much better idea. So apologies not just to you but to everyone for the diversion.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:22 pm

You could do that, when I add the snake(s), they would also need clearing and redrawing, but the idea is fine.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby kieranhj » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:47 am

I'm curious this is all software rendered and so smooth at 50Hz. I too assumed this was vertical ruptured so you were "hardware" scrolling each row of sprites..!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:23 am

Sorry to disappoint ;)
My Astro blaster actually uses hardware scrolling for the aliens, they are all redrawn each frame, but in the same place!
Phoenix also uses pixel hardware vertical scrolling to make the mothership descend slowly and for the vertical movement of the large birds, but again, the birds are moved sideways by redrawing.
The beeb is good at smooth vertical scrolling, and not bad at drawing many copies of the same sprite, as long as they stay character and row aligned, the trick is to pick games where these can be used to make things look impressive and hopefully give an arcade feel.
Horizontal movement is a pain if it isn't character aligned, as you usually end up with multiple copies of your sprite, one for each pixel offset within a character; this means having few sprites or few frames of animation as in frogger, or having to unpack them as you go, as with Astro blaster.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:55 am

Added sound for landing on "lady" frog, but I seem to have introduced two an unrelated bugs!
If anyone spots the cause of the bugs, it would speed up me fixing them it (RS demo25.zip).
Sometimes a fly is left behind and sometimes there is an extra sound at the start of a level.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:47 pm

Added a couple more bits, mostly untested/placeholder, over at RetroSoftware!
Added choice of several keyboard layouts, but haven't checked the joystick option (PRESS FIRE).
The instructions are placeholder (a copy of the loader source code) so not very interesting!
Enthusiasm is on the wane again, if you have any must have features, or even, "would really like", chip in now.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby oss003 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:00 pm

Well, look at the bright side Tricky: Anothere great classic title is added to the Beeb collection....... =D> =D>

Despite telling that you never finish a game, you just finished three great games!!!
Respect =D> =D>

Hmmm .... now back to my unfinished projects :lol: :lol:

Greetings
Kees

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:56 pm

I do pick the easy platform though; I don't have to redraw everything during offscreen/flyback and have full (double) speed RAM :D
I only started this as I couldn't face the rewriting necessary to finish Phoenix :oops:
I was tempted (and even made a start) on Donkey Kong, as I really want a 50Hz version on the beeb, but then realised that there would be no chance I would ever finish it!
I know I should go back and add two player co-operative to Carnival, but just can't get enthusiastic.
I should also add docking and the "out of sync" attack waves to a sideways RAM version of AstroBlaster, but no enthusiasm there either.
I can't even get around to finishing Jeltron, although that is as much because it isn't 50Hz as anything else.
I think I'll go and spend some time on MAME, that usually gets me thinking.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby Pernod » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:24 pm

tricky wrote:I think I'll go and spend some time on MAME, that usually gets me thinking.

That would be greatly appreciated. I've been chipping away at the bbc driver but there's still lots that can be improved, especially the video side of it. Give me a shout if there's anything specific you want to look at to avoid duplicating work.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:01 pm

I actually mean to play some old games, I have a box full of bits from when I used to install/repair jukeboxes for a company that rented out fruit machines, videos and pinball tables.
I have just tried BBC, but even with bbcb.zip in the roms folder, it still says I have a missing phroma.bin and invalid saa5050.
I did look at the mame code for the 6845 when I was writing a basic emulator to help me get my timing correct, but it looked like it had a few bits missing. I also looked at the tms5220, but can't remember what I found!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:24 pm

Added the croc that appears in the homes, it is on randomly from the start to see if it is ok, but will not be activated until a later level eventually.
Added the missing frames of no turtles to turtle animations (no too difficult ;)
demo29.zip at RS

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby evert67 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:33 pm

It looks incredible. If there's a downloadable demo, plz let us know.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:39 pm

evert67 wrote:It looks incredible. If there's a downloadable demo, plz let us know.

Most recent demo is here http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=978&start=80#p7546.
I'm just adding snakes, but they are proving slippery!

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby evert67 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:05 am

I downloaded it and I must say it's pretty impressive. Compared to the original Hopper it's a world of difference. I think it's great that people are making so much improved games 30 years after the original.

It looks pretty final to me. Are there things you want to improve further/

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:29 am

Thanks evert67,

I'm adding snakes at the moment, and then after what will be quite a lot of packing data between sprites, I will add crocodiles in the river, although most of their body will look suspiciously like logs ;), there is a TODO list a few posts up on the RS forum.

For more background on my beeb games writing and because I want it in one place:

I continued (after a 20+ year gap - see Jeltron http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Jeltron) writing beeb games with Carnival http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=877&hilit=carnival, as I had an idea for a fast drawing routine that would fit it and then because I was really disappointed BITD with Acornsoft Carousel http://www.stairwaytohell.com/games/acornsoft/Acornsoft-Carousel.html and because Arcadian is a fan.

I really wanted Phoenix for the beeb BITD, but never found one (there is one, but its about as close as Carousel is to Carnival), so after another drawing routine idea, I started on Phoenix http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=909&hilit=phoenix, I have rather stalled on this as I have coded myself into a corner and need to do quite a bit of rewriting to continue.

I got a SPEECH chip for my beeb, and then had an idea for re-using the drawing routines from Phoenix for AstroBlaster http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=912&hilit=astroblaster, another game missing from the beeb, and a really good use for my shiny (dull and grubby actually) new SPEECH chip ;)

I'm a bit hazy on the order, but with finishing Phoenix so hard and "finishing" AstroBlaster only by virtue of having no way to free up any more memory (actually I find finishing anything HARD) I had an idea for a way to do the "tricky" bits I love and get a game finished without having to do the long boring "finishing" it; write an emulator like MAME and when the "tricky" bits are done, so is the game ;)

I went on holiday for a week, taking MAME (it has a debugger), the Exidy ROMS http://mamedev.org/roms/, a laptop, beebem, b-em and beebasm and wrote the Circus/AcrobatTV emulator http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=943&hilit=circus. It works by patching a few addresses to make the original ROMs check the addresses I have things stored instead of non-existent hardware registers. I also change the palette to match the original cellulose strips that were stuck on the monochrome monitor.

Because I had made up some "paddle" controls for Circus and really liked the idea that I only had to do the "tricky" bits to get a finished game, I wrote the RipCord http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=944&hilit=ripcord emulator. This was fairly easy as it looked like it had reused most of the code from Circus, and so didn't take more than a couple of days all together.

SimonSideburns, posted asking about mode 0 games and as I now had a list of possible arcade game emulators that might be possible, I started on Sprint http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=953&hilit=sprint, I still haven't got the controls how I would like them and I don't know what the legal situation with the ROMs is (I have a set from when I worked in arcades), so I don't know if this will ever get "released".

I have plenty of unstarted/unfinished projects for the beeb, but only get so much time and my inspiration runs out quickly once the tricky bits are done. I would love to finish my Rally-X http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=903&hilit=rallyx game, but as it would only work on a beeb+CRT, b-em or jsbeeb https://bbc.godbolt.org/, it is even lower priority than Phoenix (my favourite game from BITD).

EDIT: I think it might also work on beebFPGA.

Since having a conversion with Flynnjs about four fire buttons for the beeb, I've been thinking about writing an emulator to run on the beeb for the Atari arcade game Warlords. Here is what I have so far http://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13236&p=172400#p172400

Summary of my stuff:

Carnival Thread bbcmicro.co.uk Play in browser Keyboard [Z X RETURN] or Joystick. Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
I wrote this because I loved it back in the day and had always been disappointed with Carousel (Acornsoft Carnival).

Phoenix (beta 2) Thread Play in browser Keyboard [Z X SHIFT RETURN] (no joystick yet). Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
I wrote this because it was one of my favourite games back in the day and there was no "beeb" version.

Astro Blaster Thread bbcmicro.co.uk Play in browser Keyboard [Z X SHIFT RETURN] or Joystick. Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
Speech with speech chip and 1 sideways RAM bank or sampled speech with 1 or 2 sideways RAM banks or Watford shadow RAM.
I wrote this because I had just got a speech upgrade and then, thought how I could get the smooth movement on the "beeb".
Here is a replacement for the Windows version of beebem.exe 4.0.3 that supports speech.

Circus Thread Play in browser Paddle or Analogue Joystick (Fire 1/2 start/add coins) Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
Circus is an arcade game by Exidy, also known as Acrobat TV and originally ran on a monochrome display with colour overlays.
This is an emulator in the style of MAME but for a single game which runs on the BBC micro. Keys: 5 add coins, 1 1 player, 2 2 player.
I really wrote this because I love the "tricky" bits and find it such a struggle to finish a game, an emulator is perfect.

RipCord Thread Play in browser Paddle or Analogue Joystick (Fire 1/2 start-jump/add coins-pull cord) Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
RipCord is an arcade game by Exidy, and originally ran on a monochrome display with colour overlays.
This is an emulator in the style of MAME but for a single game which runs on the BBC micro. Keys: 5 add coins, 1 1 player, 2 2 player.
Because Circus had gone so well, I wanted to see how long it would take to do a similar game - a few evenings!

Sprint Thread with video Paddle or Analogue Joystick Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
Sprint is an arcade game by Kee Games (Atari), but because the ROMs aren't in the public domain, I haven't released it.
This is an emulator in the style of MAME but for a single game which runs on the BBC micro.
I wrote this because someone asked if there were any MODE 0 games and after Circus and RipCord, it seemed like a good idea.

Rally-X demo demo mode in browser or download. JSBeeb, B-em and a CRT should play fine, maybe beebFPGA too, BeebEm and LCDs will have jerky horizontal movement because they don't seem to use the center of the H-sync pulse to set the horizontal offset.

Frogger Thread bbcmicro.co.uk Play in browser Keyboard [Z X SHIFT RETURN] or Joystick. Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
I wrote this because I had an idea how to draw more sprites doing different things than had ever been done on the beeb.

Space Invaders Thread Play in browser Keyboard [Z X RETURN] or Joystick. Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
I started writing this for a BASIC programming competition and then decided BASIC was too hard and converted it to 6502 ASM.

Warlords Thread with Video Requires 1 sideways RAM bank and Paddle or Analogue Joystick. Models: B/B+/Master/Compact.
Warlords is an arcade game by Atari, but because the ROMs aren't in the public domain, I haven't released it.
Someone asked me if I could do this game for the beeb, so I did. You will be able to supply your own ROMs and play up to four players.
After a chat with a *. member, I built a prototype which cheaply and simply allows four Atari style paddles to be used with four fie buttons.

I have also written a compression utility (simple C++) which does OK and a fast and small (< 80 bytes) 6502 decompressor.
Last edited by tricky on Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:36 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:29 pm

Release candidate 1 is now available.
I have not tested it on real hardware, nor with a joystick (sorry for being so lazy)!
http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=978&p=7567#p7567

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby leenew » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:02 am

Hi Richard,
Well done getting this far =D>
I have had a quick play this morning.
Gameplay seems spot on so I won't go into that, but here are a few notes:

1. On loading, the first screen needs a delay as it disappears too quickly.
2. the main intro/attract screen seems a bit confusing (to me) :D regarding what to press.
3. Joysticks is broken - frog disappears as soon as joystick is moved.
4. I would turn the cursor off.

Keep up the amazing work =D> =D> =D>

Lee.

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby tricky » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:27 pm

Thanks Lee,
I nearly gave up last night and just had to get something out before I went mad (more mad)!
leenew wrote:...
1. On loading, the first screen needs a delay as it disappears too quickly.
- its only really there as a nod towards the real Frogger attract screen and so you have something to watch while it loads. Instructions has it anyway.
2. the main intro/attract screen seems a bit confusing (to me) :D regarding what to press.
- me too and I wrote it! I drew the pictures and then didn't have enough room to write the text! #-o
- basically press: I for Instructions, fire for joystick (apparently broken) or choose a keyboard layout: Z for ZX/:, W for WASD, up for crsr keys or A AZ.,
3. Joysticks is broken - frog disappears as soon as joystick is moved.
- I will have a proper dubug session myself tonight, I really wanted a list of issues as I changed dozens of things behind the scenes between the last two releases to try and squeeze everything in and I knew I wouldn't catch all the issues myself.
4. I would turn the cursor off.
- perfectionist :lol:
Lee.


I will try and sort those issues and any others that get reported.
Richard

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Re: A demo of what is looking like a new Frogger for the beeb

Postby CMcDougall » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:34 pm

On new V20, the K key does not work now... so my high score on my mCompact is now not good... but cursors still work.

edit, you changed it to Z!
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