8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

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BeebMaster
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8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby BeebMaster » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:50 pm

Please can we have the 8-bit Hardware Forum split into

New Fangled Nonsense (which I will never read) and

Original Proper Kit (which I will read every day)

?
Last edited by Samwise on Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: updated subject to better reflect request
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Re: Hardware Split

Postby flaxcottage » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:08 pm

Is this the cry of a techno-luddite? :lol:

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Samwise
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Re: Hardware Split

Postby Samwise » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:04 am

Can you be more specific about your proposed sub categories? and then let's ask whether others are in favour ...

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby jms2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:29 am

Your post made me laugh - but I have to admit I am confused as to what falls into each of your two categories.

If something performs the function of something old, but uses an updated design, does it count as new-fangled? What about the use of cplds etc?

What about stuff that is simply new - your econet clock for example? :D From the point of view of someone obsessed with original kit, that is "new".

So whilst I appreciate the idea in principle, I can't see how it would work.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:02 am

If sub dividing (or pigeonholing) is what people want, then presumably we need the following sub-forums:
  • Hardware development
  • New Fangled Nonsense
  • Remakes and re-engineered hardware
  • Restoration and repair of old hardware
  • Using Original Proper Kit
  • Documenting Original Proper Kit
  • Breaking apart Original Proper Kit
  • Reverse engineering Original Proper Kit
And I'm sure I've missed some... :mrgreen:

Personally for me, it would make very little difference as far as new postings go, as I mainly use the "View active topics" link.
But I can see that when browsing for information (or when a search has failed to locate what you want) having many sub-forums may help. Of course, the problem with this, is that subjects do sometimes wander off-topic or the original post may be posted in the "wrong" sub-forum...

Mark
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Re: Hardware Split

Postby Prime » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:34 am

Samwise wrote:Can you be more specific about your proposed sub categories? and then let's ask whether others are in favour ...


{cough}Atom forum{cough}

:) :) :)

Phill.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:49 am

And here lies the problem. If say Atom and Elk users want their separate sections and these also have sub-forums there's going to be a lot of sub-forums... I'm not sure that is such a good idea :-k

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby danielj » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:32 am

I just use "view active topics" too - it's not as if there's such a post rate it's impossible to separate out what's relevant to you or not :D

Splitting out into more and more subsections means it takes longer to decide how to categorise a new post and would be substantially more bewildering for anyone new :)

And where would the cut off lie anyway? If you've rebuilt something old but used a CPLD instead of discrete logic? Are PALs OK but GALs just on the edge?

In my humble opinion anything older than an Atom is new fangled. ;)

heheh.

d.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby jms2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 am

I pretty much agree with what's been said above. However, I've been trying to empathise with what Beebmaster is thinking and so (with tongue firmly in cheek) I have come up with this:

Test for whether something is new fangled or not:
1) Has it got a weird name?
2) Does it do something unnatural?
3) Does it involve using a modern computer?

Let's apply the test to some well-known projects:

ARM7 second processor:
1) Has it got a weird name? No
2) Does it do something unnatural? No
3) Does it involve using a modern computer? No
Conclusion = OK

DE0-Nano:
1) Has it got a weird name? Yes
2) Does it do something unnatural? Not really, except for the speed.
3) Does it involve using a modern computer? Yes, to set it up
Conclusion = Not OK

UPURS:
1) Has it got a weird name? Yes
2) Does it do something unnatural? Yes
3) Does it involve using a modern computer? Yes
Conclusion = Not OK

Plus 3 ram/rom:
1) Has it got a weird name? no
2) Does it do something unnatural? no
3) Does it involve using a modern computer? no
Conclusion = OK


Am I on the right lines here? :lol:

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby BeebMaster » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:51 am

I can see this isn't going to be an exact science!

I've no idea what PALs and GALs and CPLDs are so I'd say they come under New-fangled Nonsense.

For me, anything that makes a claim along the lines of "it's the same as a 6502 but it runs at 1000000000000000000MHz" fits in this category. Personally I'm quite happy with 2MHz, possibly even 3 or 4. It's still stupendously faster than I am.

Maybe an optional tag to the thread topic then? Atom, Elk, New fangled nonsense, etc.

Then we can filter out what we want and avoid what we might not want.
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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby danielj » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:19 pm

:lol: @jms2

I guess the rule of thumb is "If the topic title looks new-fangled, don't read it."? :D

The problem with labels is I'd now be hideously tempted to apply "Absolutely old-skool, honest" labels to new fangled things.

d.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm

Oh dear, if PAL chips are new-fangled where does that leave computers and devices that use ULA chips, 12V EPROMs, EEPROMs, flash chips, CF cards and SD cards?

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:05 pm

For BeebMaster and indeed everyone's benefit PAL chips have been around for a while. PAL have been discontinued for some time now. Their replacements, GAL chips are also no longer in mass production from some manufacturers (some are still available).

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:09 pm

jms2 wrote:... New fangled or not:
1) Has it got a weird name?
2) Does it do something unnatural?
3) Does it involve using a modern computer?

Let's apply the test to some well-known projects:

UPURS:
1) Has it got a weird name? Yes
2) Does it do something unnatural? Yes
3) Does it involve using a modern computer? Yes
Conclusion = Not OK
:shock: :roll:

Mark
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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby jms2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:58 pm

@Mark:

I should point out that I'm not having a go at UPURS, quite the reverse, I think it's wonderful!
I'm just speculating that Beebmaster probably wouldn't be interested in it, for the reasons stated.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:02 pm

I only posted the " :shock: :roll: " because it is a serial RS232 system. Serial RS232 is not exactly state-of-the-art nowadays (it dates from the 1960's) :wink:

Now UPURS currently works at 115200 bps (Baud), but Martin has had it running at lower speeds.

RS232 systems with speeds of at least 19200 bps have been available for many, many years and serial speeds of 9600 were in widespread use in the 1980's.
UPURS itself uses parts that were available in the 1980's. The only "modern" items required are a PC and a USB-RS232 converter (due to the loss of serial ports from most PC's).
When testing the system, using a system that has RS232 ports, the USB-RS232 converter was not needed.

Now, I don't think anyone has tried it, but it should be possible (maybe at a lower speed) to use a 8088 or 8086 based PC, or indeed any computer that has a suitable serial port and which can run a serial terminal program. Again, not exactly state-of-the-art...

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby jms2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:26 pm

Oh yes, I see what you mean. Glad you didn't think I was trying to be offensive.

You've raised a very good point - I knew the technology involved in the elk UPURS board was pretty standard (having soldered one together) but I think Beebmaster's lack of enthusiasm for these kinds of project is based not on the technology at all, but on the 'look and feel' of the whole thing. Which is fair enough, but I don't think its going to be practical to divide up the forums based on "does it make you feel as if you're still in 1980s" or not. Nice as it is to live in the 80s, as we all know. :D

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby danielj » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:28 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now, I don't think anyone has tried it, but it should be possible (maybe at a lower speed) to use a 8088 or 8086 based PC, or indeed any computer that has a suitable serial port and which can run a serial terminal program. Again, not exactly state-of-the-art...


Still double the bits that BeebMaster feels comfortable with :D

(Ian, I note in your sig that you're running around with one of those new fangled Master Ethernet ports - 10BaseT no less!)

d.

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby jms2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:31 pm

Actually a simple solution has just dawned on me:

8bit hardware - original
8bit hardware - new projects

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:45 pm

jms2 wrote:Actually a simple solution has just dawned on me:

8bit hardware - original
8bit hardware - new projects

Okay, but who is going to decide on the date that separates the two? :?:

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby CMcDougall » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:30 pm

^I would say for 8bit >1987 (after master compact) then its 'New Fangled Nonsense' :?

bet BeebMaster won't be saying that when his 51/4" discs all have errors, then 2 years later all his 31/2" discs too :o :shock: :x :cry:
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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby MartinB » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:32 pm

Nope, not having that [-(

There's nobody more old-school than me and if you look at my projects and associated threads, you'll see that I hate FPGPLDCLA's as much as I have contempt for ADFS :D

Mark K is precisely on my wavelength here and captured the whole raison d'être of my stuff - it could have been built just as easily back in the day. This is true of UPURS, EUP, BeebSID, HD Floppies and a million more bits that have never made it to the forums.

If you must have splits (although I'm completely wtf as to why we're even having this discussion :roll:) then base it simply on a gadget or project's technology use and just for the record, mine is all very definitely old technology \:D/

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby Samwise » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:46 pm

brilliant post. that is all. =D>

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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby Arcadian » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:23 am

Seconded!
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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby BeebMaster » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:04 am

danielj wrote:(Ian, I note in your sig that you're running around with one of those new fangled Master Ethernet ports - 10BaseT no less!)

d.

Oh the irony!

I didn't actually say that I was against anything which could be characterised as modern/new fangled etc., but I was trying to convey (perhaps oversimplistically) my preference for reading about what people are doing with original kit.

I haven't commented on the new-fangledness or otherwise of various projects mentioned in this thread and probably I'd better not! I think that's the problem with this actually, any decision on what I think counts as new-fangled would be on a case by case basis and potentially slightly whimsical.

I have no problem with anybody doing anything to or with a Beeb, however unnatural it may seem, if it keeps people using our favourite 1980s machines: the overriding mantra has to be "Carry on Beebing"!

I just thought separating out the old stuff from the more modern projects would be a good idea, but I can see it isn't easy (or necessarily the people's choice).

I do think that separate forums for Atom and Electron would be a very good thing though, there is a lot of interest and development in these lickle Acorns and I think giving them their own recognition would help.
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Re: 8-bit Hardware forum split into modern / original

Postby danielj » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:41 pm

BeebMaster wrote:Oh the irony!


Only pulling your leg, Sir :)

d.

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Re: Hardware Split

Postby CMcDougall » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:15 pm

Prime wrote:Atom forum

Seconded :D [-o<
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