New user activations

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sydney
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New user activations

Postby sydney » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:05 am

Hi all. I suppose this is directed to the admins but I think it's probably worth discussing it in public.
I've noticed quite a few members of the Facebook group asking how long it takes to get an account here activated and mentioning long delays, one person today mentioned 6 months, another said he tried to register 2 years ago. I understand the need to check registrations to ensure we don't get millions of spambots joining but is there a better way than one of the admins having to check every application with an email? Could the workload be shared? Is there another way? I can't help but feel we are missing out on lots of new members because of the issues with registration. I understand real life often gets in the way of hobby time and I'm offering to help out in some way if I can and I'm sure other regulars here feel the same way.
Cheers,
Simon

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Re: New user activations

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:23 am

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sydney
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Re: New user activations

Postby sydney » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:13 am

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining about it I just want to help if I can, at present the only course of action we have is to tag Dave Moore in the Facebook comments.
I realise many people will lose the reply from here in their spam folder and not realise it and end up complaining about it on Facebook.

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Re: New user activations

Postby CMcDougall » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:28 pm

Yeah, but do we really need more 'never had a beeb BITD , how do I plug it into the mains' #-o :roll: muppets & no brainers

let them complain on boring book :lol: enough crap on that already :(

all that will happen is lots of numpty questions & replies with links, as no one knows how to do a search....

unless they have all the MIA progs 8)

my 2p :shock:
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Re: New user activations

Postby danielj » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:29 pm

The newbies of today are the experts of tomorrow :)

d.

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Re: New user activations

Postby JonC » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:07 pm

The thing about slow account activation is that it keeps the impatient ones away, which tends to be the younger end.
The younger end are the ones who ask all the numpty questions as Colin so tactfully puts it! :lol:

So if we speed this up, we will likely get more trolls and badly behaved youngsters (never mind the badly behaved oldsters! :shock: :roll: ), and that will require far more active forum moderation and policing. What do our forum moderators think?

The pace of the forum will also change as a result, with more impulse responses, postings and ideas.
This can be a good things for the creative process on our ageing platforms, or it can be annoying and disruptive.

It all depends what people want. :)

Edit: I do think it would help for account activation to be done more often however, and that's not meant as a negative criticism.
Jon
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Re: New user activations

Postby Rich Talbot-Watkins » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:34 pm

It's easy; we should just ask them to enter all the answers to Microquest by Glengary. That'll pick out the true fans.
http://bbc.godbolt.org/?disc=sth%3AGlen ... &autoboot#
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Re: New user activations

Postby duikkie » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:53 am

looks like question for commodore 64 forum , with the please wait. it is so slow as that machine

further a computer is not a playing machine , is for programming stuff and make life easy. :shock:

there for all the NOT players are no treu fans :cry:

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:It's easy; we should just ask them to enter all the answers to Microquest by Glengary. That'll pick out the true fans.
http://bbc.godbolt.org/?disc=sth%3AGlen ... &autoboot#
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1024MAK
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Re: New user activations

Postby 1024MAK » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:02 am

Having seen the damage spam bots can do to a forum, yes, we need a filter system.
I think the human filter is the best way, but agree that if potential members are having to wail long periods, that is not good.

It may just be a combination of the admins being busy with their own lives and emails getting lost.

In the past, when it has been talked about by the admins, it appears each new person automatically gets added to a queue. The admins are suppose to get notifications on the status of this.

You also have to take into account people moaning, it may be that they gave an incorrect email address. As I can't believe that the admins would take six months to approve a new member.

And the new members that have joined over the past year don't appear to have complained.

Mark
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Re: New user activations

Postby BigEd » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:27 am

It doesn't seem to work like a queue. Perhaps it acts like a leaky queue - usually working but sometimes dropping someone on the floor. In two or three cases I've helped someone join, by emailing or PMing the mods.

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Re: New user activations

Postby duikkie » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:14 pm

it is hard to change something as member , change email adress off the forum :( , changing name from duikkie in zeur duikkie impossible 8)

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Re: New user activations

Postby JonC » Sun May 01, 2016 12:53 pm

duikkie wrote:it is hard to change something as member , change email adress off the forum :( , changing name from duikkie in zeur duikkie impossible 8)


Umm, that's a functional rather than a procedural problem.
Changing of forum names is not something I've noticed on here (admin assisted or otherwise)

Getting people joined up in the first place is the important bit! :mrgreen:
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Re: New user activations

Postby paulv » Sun May 01, 2016 2:42 pm

BigEd wrote: In two or three cases I've helped someone join, by emailing or PMing the mods.


Me two. Sadly the last one of those I helped to accelerate the approval of turned out to just want to sell things and not engage in the forum for any other reason. This was after repeatedly complaining on Facebook that they had registered months ago and hadn't been approved but seemingly seemed to be otherwise active in the retro scene...

After I intervened and offered help, they were approved relatively quickly but learning from that experience, it's unlikely I'll intervene like that again. Sad but true.

Paul

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Re: New user activations

Postby BigEd » Sun May 01, 2016 3:07 pm

Well, it'll happen. But much like the fear expressed above that we might get the wrong kind of members, I think you have to accept that you'll get a mixture, and apply corrective action if people behave badly. Most won't. Better to get people in, in the hope that some of them will be helpful and enthusiastic and (perhaps eventually) knowledgeable. It even helps to get new questions, just because of the benefit of prompting existing members to post good answers, which can subsequently be found by searching.

I'm for slow growth, which should also help the age profile, in the long run.

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Re: New user activations

Postby TopBanana » Mon May 02, 2016 5:57 am

paulv wrote:Sadly the last one of those I helped to accelerate the approval of turned out to just want to sell things and not engage in the forum for any other reason.
Paul


What's wrong with that? There's a trading section of the board, and selling things is contributing to the overall Acorn experience.

Would you have objected if they were selling the VELA items you are seeking?

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Re: New user activations

Postby paulv » Mon May 02, 2016 8:23 am

TopBanana wrote:
paulv wrote:Sadly the last one of those I helped to accelerate the approval of turned out to just want to sell things and not engage in the forum for any other reason.
Paul


What's wrong with that? There's a trading section of the board, and selling things is contributing to the overall Acorn experience.



There's nothing wrong with it in general and it wasn't that they were selling that was the issue for me. It was the manner and behaviour of that particular individual and the way in which they went about it that bothered me. There's an etiquette on stardot that most forum users follow and I felt that the behaviour of that particular individual did not meet that standard.

It was clear by the reaction of other forum members that have been on here longer than most that the behaviour was not in line with what people expect too.

In fact, looking at the members list by month to find this particular user, they are no longer listed. Double checking their posts, clicking on their username, the user no longer exists. It'd be interesting to find out if the moderators removed the user in question due to their behaviour which I personally felt was out of order. Looking back through the posts, their introduce yourself thread is locked which would indicate moderator intervention at least at some level and it speaks volumes to me about that particular user.

We have plenty of new users that do come on and sell items but typically they post in a few other topics first, get to know the lay of the land and become great forum members both trading and interacting with the community we have. Sadly one of the few times I assisted in getting a forum members approval expedited it caused the forum some upset and the moderators some extra work :(

EDIT:

TopBanana wrote:Would you have objected if they were selling the VELA items you are seeking?


What is being sold is an irrelevance, how it's being sold and the behaviour of the forum member is what matters to me.

Now you've raised it though, if someone were to be selling VELA equipment that had otherwise not been seen/persevered before then yes, I'd make an offer on it regardless of who were selling.

If I didn't obtain it, I'd contact the forum member that did and ask them for photo's and or ROM dumps and or disc images and I'd make them available on this forum and on my website, citing their source where applicable for the wider community in an effort to preserve those items in some way for the future. This is not unusual for me and it's something I've done in the past.

I've also gifted VELA equipment to other forum members after I'd won it on eBay at significant cost to myself so that I could image ROMs and document it for my site. I do this because I know it goes to a good home and I'd rather see the equipment used and enjoyed by others than gathering dust as another spare in my collection. After all, I've kept one of each VELA model and a couple of broken ones for spare parts for myself. Everything else, I don't need so it goes elsewhere and I typically don't sell it unless it was so expensive that I need to at least mitigate some of that cost of the preservation process. I don't think I've sold any spare VELA equipment for the price I've paid for it.

Paul

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Re: New user activations

Postby Zarchos » Sat May 07, 2016 7:48 pm

David Feugey who helped and is helping promoting RISC OS via riscos.fr tried twice to join us and never got any answer from the admin.

From this, if you find it brilliant not to answer people query to join the forum, I truely understand there was no hope at all for Acorn to sell their computers worlwide, and that the 'islander' mentality is deeply rooted in many Anglians living in a world which died several decades ago, and they still haven't faced the dire reality.
:shock:

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Re: New user activations

Postby Zarchos » Sat May 07, 2016 8:10 pm

TopBanana wrote:
paulv wrote:Sadly the last one of those I helped to accelerate the approval of turned out to just want to sell things and not engage in the forum for any other reason.
Paul


What's wrong with that? There's a trading section of the board, and selling things is contributing to the overall Acorn experience.

Would you have objected if they were selling the VELA items you are seeking?


+1000
So blatantly obvious.
If you want people to have a degree or pass an exam to join, it's not a forum you must have, but a club for the 'selected few' ... you'll end up being 7 with an ultratiny audience like the retro RISC OS environment.
Other forums 'monitor' their members posts and if necessary ban them, after having warned them.
But well on *. the longer you've been posting, the more privileged you are and you're allowed to post offensive contents, so of course it makes things more difficult. [-X
I was called a faggot but well the admin asked me to understand the *. member it came from had been there for a long time so I should put a sock in it (politely, but this was clearly the message), messages were deleted, and to him : it's enough.

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1024MAK
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Re: New user activations

Postby 1024MAK » Sat May 07, 2016 8:37 pm

It sounds like David Feugey would be someone who should indeed be allowed in.

I think then that there may be a problem with the admins and moderators not having enough time to deal with these issues. There may also be a problem with the forum software. Remember, StarDot went off line unexpectedly and had to be restored in a unplanned way. The team did a wonderful job getting StarDot back on line as quickly as they could. Amazing given the circumstances. But it may well be that the new user activation system has some problems.

Notice also that so far only ordinary members and one moderator have posted here. No sign of Sam or Arcadian :? Or any of the other moderators :?

I do hope they are are all fit and well.

Administrators
Sam last posted a message on the 9th of February 2016. I can't tell when he last visited.
Arcadian is about, he last posted a message on the 5th of May 2016.

Moderators
regregex last posted a message in 2014. He last visited on the 12th of Feb 2016.
garfield last posted a message on 26th March 2016. He last visited on the 6th of May 2016 (yesterday).
Rich Talbot-Watkin last posted a message on 29th April 2016 (in this thread). He last visited on the 6th of May 2016 (yesterday).
sorvad last posted a message In 2014. He last visited on the 6th of May 2016 (yesterday).

Now, if it is a question of the existing team having trouble with lack of time, do we need to appoint another moderator? That is assuming that a moderator has the power to review and authorise new members...

Note that nothing in this post is intended to be unfairly criticising the existing team. I am simply wondering if a more active member could help share the workload.

Thoughts?

Mark

Edited to correct a typo.
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Re: New user activations

Postby 1024MAK » Sat May 07, 2016 8:49 pm

Zarchos, I don't know who you are referring to (and I don't want you to advertise who it is/was either). But long serving members have been banned in the past on this forum for what they have said. So, I don't think your comments about some being privileged is necessarily true.

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Re: New user activations

Postby Arcadian » Sat May 07, 2016 8:54 pm

Well aware that the list of mods and admins need to be refreshed.

Actively having conversations about this now. Watch this space.
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Re: New user activations

Postby roland » Sat May 07, 2016 9:20 pm

As I'm quite active in this forum I'm willing to give access to new members. Just give me the rules that have to be applied and the permissions and I'll be happy to contribute if this helps the current admins.
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Re: New user activations

Postby Zarchos » Sat May 07, 2016 9:26 pm

1024MAK wrote:Zarchos, I don't know who you are referring to (and I don't want you to advertise who it is/was either). But long serving members have been banned in the past on this forum for what they have said. So, I don't think your comments about some being privileged is necessarily true.

Mark


You must be kidding me.

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Re: New user activations

Postby paulv » Sat May 07, 2016 9:50 pm

Zarchos wrote:
1024MAK wrote:Zarchos, I don't know who you are referring to (and I don't want you to advertise who it is/was either). But long serving members have been banned in the past on this forum for what they have said. So, I don't think your comments about some being privileged is necessarily true.

Mark


You must be kidding me.


No Mark is correct. Long time members have been banned in the past because of their aggressive treatment of other members old and new. One such banned member has attempted to re-join in the past using a false set of details, something which is prohibited by the forum rules. When their subterfuge was discovered, they were banned *again* due to the breach of rules regarding false profiles rather than their behaviour towards others the second time around.

You have to remember, this forum is aimed at *all* users of Acorn kit be they 5 or 500 and IME the moderators take abusive and aggressive behaviour towards others very seriously.

I know it's four years ago but when I was at Beeb@30 with Samwise and Arcadian, there were several membership applications to the forum outstanding at that time. Being present for some of the conversations about the prospective members, it opened my eyes as to just what the moderators do for our community and it's more than you'd think.

Typically before members are approved, they are, for want of a better description "background checked" a bit to try to ensure that the profiles are true and honest representations of the members making the request to join.

The reason why we have the minimum 25 post limit before a member can PM is also part of the moderation of new users as it does to a certain extent limit the possibilities for those members that do get approved and immediately begin spamming other users.

In my previous posts I talked about my reticence to sponsor anyone else to expedite their membership to the forums because of my own personal experience with doing so ending in the sponsored user being banned. I felt embarrassment at being the one to sponsor their membership and anger that my helpfulness in getting them approved on the forum was abused in such a way as it was. I'm not saying that every member or sponsored potential member is going to act in that way. Far from it. But I do wonder why that particular member wasn't approved beforehand until I put a word in about them to the mods.

Thankfully his behaviour was discovered quickly, no one got stung and the forum moved on.

In this case, the moderators acted swiftly in both approving and subsequently banning said user. Something for which I'm thankful for on both counts. But given my experience, it makes me think twice about offering to nudge the moderators about any other delayed membership requests. Sometimes they're delayed for reasons we're not privy to.

Paul

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Re: New user activations

Postby Zarchos » Sat May 07, 2016 10:00 pm

No : Mark and you are wrong ok ?
You're not going to explain something I experienced (and you didn't) isn't reality, how come ?
Where are we heading to from here now ?

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Re: New user activations

Postby paulv » Sat May 07, 2016 10:14 pm

Without wanting to get into an argument about this, what Mark said is correct.

My post relates my experience of the moderators and recent membership issues and it also illustrates Marks point in more detail regarding long term members being banned. These are established facts that can be verified by looking through the forum history.

I don't doubt your experience is also true. I didn't say anything about whether you are right or wrong. What I did allude to is the fact that the Moderators take more into consideration than you might initially think and although you are one complainant in the incident you experienced, the other party may also have valid complaints about you. It's often a tricky balance being a moderator. As users we may not agree with their decisions 100% of the time but we have to keep in mind that they try to moderate the board for the good of the whole.

After all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one and it has to be this way with a forum otherwise it would become a dictatorship bent to the will of the one who shouts loudest.

Paul

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Re: New user activations

Postby JonC » Sat May 07, 2016 10:34 pm

paulv wrote:Without wanting to get into an argument about this, what Mark said is correct.

My post relates my experience of the moderators and recent membership issues and it also illustrates Marks point in more detail regarding long term members being banned. These are established facts that can be verified by looking through the forum history.

I don't doubt your experience is also true. I didn't say anything about whether you are right or wrong. What I did allude to is the fact that the Moderators take more into consideration than you might initially think and although you are one complainant in the incident you experienced, the other party may also have valid complaints about you. It's often a tricky balance being a moderator. As users we may not agree with their decisions 100% of the time but we have to keep in mind that they try to moderate the board for the good of the whole.

After all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one and it has to be this way with a forum otherwise it would become a dictatorship bent to the will of the one who shouts loudest.

Paul


This is very true, having moderated far more active and badly behaved boards, it's very difficult to keep everyone happy. As John Lydgate said; You can't please all the people all the time!
Jon
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Re: New user activations

Postby Rich Talbot-Watkins » Sun May 08, 2016 9:26 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now, if it is a question of the existing team having trouble with lack of time, do we need to appoint another moderator? That is assuming that a moderator has the power to review and authorise new members...

Mods currently don't have the permission to authorise new members - occasionally when a request comes in via PM, I haven't been able to do a thing about it (but Samwise and DaveM tend to be pretty quick off the mark).

I'm sure that extending the permissions to mods could at least help a little bit to get new members on board - extra pairs of hands and all that.

And obviously my remark earlier about making them enter all the answers to Microquest was made with tongue firmly in cheek!

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Re: New user activations

Postby Rich Talbot-Watkins » Sun May 08, 2016 9:32 pm

Just to add, my policy on this would be very simple. The only reason we should be having any manual filtering going on is to keep out spambots, which are normally pretty recognisable in any case. I think the other day when I was having trouble with my password it asked me to enter which tree acorns come from - language barrier aside (not everyone who speaks English as a second language might know the name of the tree), a straightforward question like that would defeat spambots, and we wouldn't need to wait on the admins to greenlight the signup.

Obviously (to me at least) we shouldn't be cherry-picking people, the last thing I want is to be part of some exclusive little club. If someone breaks the rules, three strikes and they're out. But anyway, I really don't think we're that kind of community.

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Re: New user activations

Postby Arcadian » Mon May 09, 2016 2:02 am

Historically, the issue about new registrants seemingly not getting approved was actually down to new users failing to compete the final step of the registration process - which was to send a brief, introductory email outlining the user's interest in Acorn computers. This measure was put in place to help eliminate spam-bots, which were getting cleverer (they had even been programmed to learn the Special Questions that we'd been adding as further anti-spam precautions). However, many users were not reading the final confirmation screen - and were neglecting to send in the required intro (meaning their registration requests weren't acted upon).

As I'd been seeing fewer and fewer emails come in requesting access, earlier this evening I tried to sign up using a test account but alarmingly, the text requesting users to send an introduction via email is no longer visible/present on the confirmation screen. I'm assuming it must have been lost during the last forum upgrade - the net result being that all new registrants over the past several months wouldn't have even known about the requirement to send an email in!

So I've just activated all new registration requests from the last six months which, on the surface at least, appear to be have been raised by genuine users. It's quite possible that some spammers, spam-bots etc may have been approved - so we'll have to keep an eye out and be extra-vigilant for the foreseeable.

To address Rich's comments, there hasn't really been any pre-vetting of users going on at all - the only instances would have been during periods when we were experiencing problems with specific, banned users whom were trying to sign up with multiple accounts (only then would we be looking at things like IP addresses, email accounts, writing style etc).

Anyway, as Mark has pointed out - all bar one of the moderators are no longer regular users/posters on the site, so a fresh group of moderators will be appointed shortly. A new Admin team has already been formulated. More news to follow ...
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