High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

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KarateEd
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:57 pm

Snapshots are definitely out as to the competition. You can use snapshots to practice but you cannot submit any scores that are submitted from snapshots.

There is something else that has been bothering me as well. On level 8 it is possible to topple King Kong. If you lose a life you can do it again.

Here's what is bothering me...... would that be considered point whoring as described in the rules. If so then this will probably change a couple of people's scores.

Here's my opinion and I would like other's opinions as well. That level to me has a trade off. If you want a higher score, you can get it but you have to sacrifice a life to do so and risk a life every time you try as you may not succeed at getting back up to King Kong to topple him. Everyone has that possibility once they get to Level 8. You still run the risk of losing a life trying to get the extra points and it is definitely limited to the number of lives you have left..... so strictly speaking it doesn't really fit into the category of how the rule is written. Never-the-less, I would like some clarity on what people think about this.

I want this to be fair for everyone, which even using this method of playing on this particular game shouldn't change the playing field.

A good example of point whoring would be staying on level one of Tapper for pretty much as long as you want. In this game, it's impossible to do so.

Thoughts please people......especially Sydney!!!!

Thanks,

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby sydney » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:14 pm

I've not played the game so let me get this right.

Toppling kong gets 2000 points.
If you lose a life kong is back and can be toppled again.
Kong can only be toppled again if you lose a life.
Players are deliberately losing a life to go back, topple kong and get another 2000 points. Repeatedly.

If this is the case then I'd say it is points whoring and should not be allowed. If the loss of a life is not deliberate then the player should be allowed to topple kong again. The intent is what is important here in my opinion.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:28 pm

sydney wrote:I've not played the game so let me get this right.

Toppling kong gets 2000 points.
If you lose a life kong is back and can be toppled again.
Kong can only be toppled again if you lose a life.
Players are deliberately losing a life to go back, topple kong and get another 2000 points. Repeatedly.

If this is the case then I'd say it is points whoring and should not be allowed. If the loss of a life is not deliberate then the player should be allowed to topple kong again. The intent is what is important here in my opinion.


I think you've got that right except the only thing that is different from the usual point whoring is that you can't do this infinitely. You could potentially do this a total of 4 times (1st 3 x gets you another life) and that's it, it's extremely limited in that way and may even have been the programmer's intent..... however, I like your point and if people will allow, then I will adjust the score table to reflect that, at least with my score. I'm good enough at this to get a top score without piling points up this way anyway....... so folks,

Here's the deal. I will need transparent honesty here. If you have employed this method of scoring points then kindly let me know which scores should be removed from the high score table. I am removing my 31k score as it's not valid using this ruling and Matthew will be the new points leader on this.

I think there may be at least one other person who will need to let me know what to adjust their score to, maybe more.

Thanks very much for your co-operation.

and..... most importantly , thanks for helping us play fairly in this game.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:56 pm

So after applying the preceding rule, my new high score for this game is......

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:11 am

Slightly better, that level 13, have only managed it once even though I get there with at least 2 lives.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:01 am

So, no comments on my previous posts?

ok, I'll assume that people have played and lost lives in a normal way and we'll keep whatever scores we have at the moment.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:08 am

ok, last one for the night, it's 3 AM here and I'm kinda sick with a bug....

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:13 am

High Score Tables Updated......

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby Wouter Scholten » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:31 am

KarateEd wrote:So, no comments on my previous posts?

ok, I'll assume that people have played and lost lives in a normal way and we'll keep whatever scores we have at the moment.

Ed...... :-)



I'm not playing as still away but disallowing this is silly. I means a temporary quick increase in score until you can get past further levels but it's quite limited so no point in disallowing it. Gaming the system should always be allowed as it's interesting and you get to use your brain on how to circumvent some issues in a game and I consider it a tactic, unless it's a way to give a nearly limitless score, which would make the game pointless. You might as well have disallowed many of the rocket raid scores by those who couldn't for some reason get past the maze. The thing to do then is to kill yourself on purpose just before the blue level as the one with the meteors gives far more points, and redo that several times...

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:06 am

Wouter Scholten wrote:
KarateEd wrote:So, no comments on my previous posts?

ok, I'll assume that people have played and lost lives in a normal way and we'll keep whatever scores we have at the moment.

Ed...... :-)



I'm not playing as still away but disallowing this is silly. I means a temporary quick increase in score until you can get past further levels but it's quite limited so no point in disallowing it. Gaming the system should always be allowed as it's interesting and you get to use your brain on how to circumvent some issues in a game and I consider it a tactic, unless it's a way to give a nearly limitless score, which would make the game pointless. You might as well have disallowed many of the rocket raid scores by those who couldn't for some reason get past the maze. The thing to do then is to kill yourself on purpose just before the blue level as the one with the meteors gives far more points, and redo that several times...


Wouter, that's exactly the point of the rule. The idea here is to try to do your best to advance to the next levels. This rule has been in for quite a while and it took me a while to recognize that it is there for a purpose. We're supposed to be trying, in reality, to defeat the game. Purposely losing lives is not trying to get to the end of the game, it artificially pumps up the score. In Manic Miner, I can easily get an extra 8k points just by purposely losing my life, I don't think that is the point of the game so the rule will stand. This is a decision that was made jointly by 2 admins so I hope we can live with it until another admin comes along that is willing to change it. To me the rule has a good purpose.

In Rocket Raid, you do your best, if you die then you may end up with a better score. At times I did but my effort was always to get to the next level in the game. Overall, in Manic Miner it does make a difference. I blew Matt's score out of the water by doing that and then realized what I was doing and in the spirit of this gaming site, that's wrong and I've taken myself to task.

Anyway, as I said this rule has been in a very long time and I just had to clarify it with another admin, I have done so and it stands.

I do want to thank you for giving me your opinion, it is helpful to see how people view things and your point of view is a bit of how I saw it but it just didn't feel right, a 'gut' feeling so I had to mention it and do something about it. It is possible to various interpretations of this particular rule so I will get together with another admin and we'll clarify it so it won't have to be addressed again.

I'm leaving it up to people's consciences as to whether they wish to reduce their scores to a previous 'within the rules' scores. I've had no takers so I'll assume everyone has played by the rules as written and I'm the bad guy here.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby sydney » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:24 am

Wouter Scholten wrote:I means a temporary quick increase in score until you can get past further levels...


This is the crux of the problem with it for me. How would you get to further levels if you used all your lives getting a 'temporary' increase in score. If you use 4 lives doing this you gain 8000 points which equates to around 30% of KarateEd's score and is more than the bottom two scores just in itself. If it's just temporary then why do it at all? Just play the game.

Ed and I will have a look at the wording for this rule just to make it clear what is and isn't acceptable

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby Wouter Scholten » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:32 am

KarateEd wrote:In Rocket Raid, you do your best, if you die then you may end up with a better score. At times I did but my effort was always to get to the next level in the game. Overall, in Manic Miner it does make a difference. I blew Matt's score out of the water by doing that and then realized what I was doing and in the spirit of this gaming site, that's wrong and I've taken myself to task.




In Rocket raid, if I had not been the highest scorer, at least the next 2 players did on purpose lose a life to get a higher score. Other players might have used the exact same argument against it as now used here. The object of the game as per the rules is not to get as far as possible but to get the highest score. If someone goes after all extra points on a game on each level and gets to a far lower level than another player, that's not cheating it's just a weighing of options on what is best to get a good score. What if I had played and scored say 60k on manic miner, getting level 25 for example, would anyone then think it unacceptable to use 4 lives to topple kong? Likely not, as didn't happen with rocket raid...
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby Wouter Scholten » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:36 am

sydney wrote:
Wouter Scholten wrote:I means a temporary quick increase in score until you can get past further levels...


This is the crux of the problem with it for me. How would you get to further levels if you used all your lives getting a 'temporary' increase in score. If you use 4 lives doing this you gain 8000 points which equates to around 30% of KarateEd's score and is more than the bottom two scores just in itself. If it's just temporary then why do it at all? Just play the game.

Ed and I will have a look at the wording for this rule just to make it clear what is and isn't acceptable


You would not get further until a while later. Why do it at all is because the score is the ultimate goal, not reaching a high level. With various games you can score differently per level depending on getting bonuses. Not really different. It's your choice on the rules and I'm not playing this round so doesn't affect me, but see my other reply for more on my view.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby sydney » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 am

Wouter Scholten wrote:You would not get further until a while later. Why do it at all is because the score is the ultimate goal, not reaching a high level. With various games you can score differently per level depending on getting bonuses. Not really different. It's your choice on the rules and I'm not playing this round so doesn't affect me, but see my other reply for more on my view.


I agree that score is the ultimate goal but it must be achieved by playing the game the way it is meant to be played. I know this could mean different things to each of us but for me intentionally losing lives for a temporary boost in points is not the way the author of any game thought his game would be played. To me this is exploiting a point scoring opportunity and is covered in the rules in the cheating section rather than the points whoring section - though I think cheating would be too strong a word to use in this case.

The Rules wrote:No cheating - at all! No cheat modes, pokes or exploits to be used at all. Anyone found cheating will be excluded from that round.


Thanks for your replies Wouter as they are helping us make sure the rules are clear. I can absolutely see it from your point of view, please don't take my response in a negative way as that's not how they are meant.

Ed and I are going to have a look at the rules over the next week or so to make sure the are still adequate so any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll start a new thread for this.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby MatthewThompson » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:56 pm

KarateEd wrote:Snapshots are definitely out as to the competition. You can use snapshots to practice but you cannot submit any scores that are submitted from snapshots.

There is something else that has been bothering me as well. On level 8 it is possible to topple King Kong. If you lose a life you can do it again.

Here's what is bothering me...... would that be considered point whoring as described in the rules. If so then this will probably change a couple of people's scores.

Here's my opinion and I would like other's opinions as well. That level to me has a trade off. If you want a higher score, you can get it but you have to sacrifice a life to do so and risk a life every time you try as you may not succeed at getting back up to King Kong to topple him. Everyone has that possibility once they get to Level 8. You still run the risk of losing a life trying to get the extra points and it is definitely limited to the number of lives you have left..... so strictly speaking it doesn't really fit into the category of how the rule is written. Never-the-less, I would like some clarity on what people think about this.

I want this to be fair for everyone, which even using this method of playing on this particular game shouldn't change the playing field.

A good example of point whoring would be staying on level one of Tapper for pretty much as long as you want. In this game, it's impossible to do so.

Thoughts please people......especially Sydney!!!!

Thanks,

Ed...... :-)


Funnily enough, this has crossed my mind aswell, technically someone could get to level 8 with no lives lost, and then deliberately kill themselves to get the
2000 every time, probably getting an extra life too in the process. If that is being done then it is cheating, but how would you know it's just a player got to level 8 and that was as far at they got?

My aim is to get as far in every game as possible, unfortunately Manic Miner is one of those where players who get to Level 12 can have a lesser score than players on Level 9.

I've played Manic Miner millions of times over the years on loads of formats, so many of these levels I know very well, and know the quirks and tricks of them (eg Euguenes lair in that he blocks off the exit - things like that) so it hasn't taken me long to get through the levels again, which is why i've manged to get so far through the game.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:48 pm

Matt, you said, how would you know? You know and so would everyone that plays the game. This game is a first for me and I know if someone is 'dying on purpose' for a better score. I thought I would try it to see if it made much difference and it gives one about 1/3 of your total score if you exploit the loophole. As you can see I adjusted my score to reflect playing properly. We can't have an admin abusing the very rules that they are trying to support so, yup, it makes a huge difference. Even though I'm new to this game, I can tell you exactly who got what score and how they got it.

One of the things that struck me was that you got to level 16 and your score for that level is fairly low so I see you were likely being very careful to achieve that level. I've had a very good score, almost as much as your score on level 13. That level is hard for me so far, only been past it once. I did that exactly by the rules so you could probably raise your score just by being a bit more efficient on some of the levels. The beauty of this game is some levels have different ways to complete them so it might be a disadvantage to having played it a lot before as habits set in. I have no such thing, well, I didn't but now I do as I pretty much play all the levels exactly the same way I've done before yet, the score system seems a tad arbitrary at times, not sure why, probably something that I'm not understanding in the scoring system.

In all fairness, you deserve the lead, that was one thing that led me to review my own practices and the practices of others.

Stay tuned as the rules will be revised so there is absolute clarity on games that have 'loopholes' to boost scores. We aren't lawyers so we shouldn't be exploiting loopholes..... otherwise we get that 'lawyer' reputation and as far as I remember, it's not really a good rep.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:38 pm

Here is where the discussion on the rules are being held right now so as to free this for only the game play results.

http://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13820&p=181530#p181530

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:12 am

Just to prove I could do it again..... a very tiny improvement but any improvement at this stage is a success.....

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:41 am

Finally, it took a while but now have the high score.... it wasn't easy, 13 is still really tough for me.

I was within taking the last sprocket when I managed to jump into a beasty......

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:46 am

High Score Tables Updated......

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:43 am

and..... a new high score......I have to say I'm kind of enjoying this game......

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:52 am

Sorry I was away for the weekend, but I've just caught up..

After I did the life thing on the Kong level I did check the rules and noticed the clause about "points-whoring" and was unsure whether it constituted it or not, because of the fact it was a trade off on lives.

After reviewing the discussion I agree to withdraw my score of 25726, so my current top score is 19516.

I might have one or two more goes today to see if I can better that though!

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby KarateEd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:50 am

barbarossa69 wrote:Sorry I was away for the weekend, but I've just caught up..

After I did the life thing on the Kong level I did check the rules and noticed the clause about "points-whoring" and was unsure whether it constituted it or not, because of the fact it was a trade off on lives.

After reviewing the discussion I agree to withdraw my score of 25726, so my current top score is 19516.

I might have one or two more goes today to see if I can better that though!


Thanks Barbarossa..... we're reviewing and trying to clarify the rules a bit so this doesn't happen again. I was also unsure so it's better to err on the safe side but I also had a 'gut' feeling it was wrong so had to address it. I'm not normally so mean....LOL

Anyway, thanks again for understanding and I'll make the changes in the high score table on the finish. You never know, you may just go nuts and beat that score.

Ed...... :-)

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:05 am

Slight improvement.... ;)

I remember back in the day playing this game a lot, pretty sure I completed all 20 levels back then too.
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby MatthewThompson » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:56 am

KarateEd wrote:Matt, you said, how would you know? You know and so would everyone that plays the game. This game is a first for me and I know if someone is 'dying on purpose' for a better score. I thought I would try it to see if it made much difference and it gives one about 1/3 of your total score if you exploit the loophole. As you can see I adjusted my score to reflect playing properly. We can't have an admin abusing the very rules that they are trying to support so, yup, it makes a huge difference. Even though I'm new to this game, I can tell you exactly who got what score and how they got it.

One of the things that struck me was that you got to level 16 and your score for that level is fairly low so I see you were likely being very careful to achieve that level. I've had a very good score, almost as much as your score on level 13. That level is hard for me so far, only been past it once. I did that exactly by the rules so you could probably raise your score just by being a bit more efficient on some of the levels. The beauty of this game is some levels have different ways to complete them so it might be a disadvantage to having played it a lot before as habits set in. I have no such thing, well, I didn't but now I do as I pretty much play all the levels exactly the same way I've done before yet, the score system seems a tad arbitrary at times, not sure why, probably something that I'm not understanding in the scoring system.

In all fairness, you deserve the lead, that was one thing that led me to review my own practices and the practices of others.

Stay tuned as the rules will be revised so there is absolute clarity on games that have 'loopholes' to boost scores. We aren't lawyers so we shouldn't be exploiting loopholes..... otherwise we get that 'lawyer' reputation and as far as I remember, it's not really a good rep.

Ed...... :-)


I meant 'You' as in the context of you being the admin person. In that how would you know if it was a genuine score or not ? the player would know, but admin wouldn't. Hope that makes sense.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:00 pm

Pretty sure I know how to do this level now.... but this is my best score to date. Hopefully more to come, few hours left!!!
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:23 pm

Second time lucky....
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:29 pm

Kicking myself here because I mistimed the final drop TWICE in a row. But... score!
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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby sydney » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:01 pm

barbarossa69 wrote:Kicking myself here because I mistimed the final drop TWICE in a row. But... score!


This confirms for me it's the right decision to ban the kong exploit. Would it be fair for someone who only made it to level 8 to finish above you simply because they gave up playing the game and took a possible 10000 point bonus in exchange for their remaining lives.

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Re: High Score Challenge S8 - R2 - Manic Miner

Postby barbarossa69 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm

sydney wrote:
barbarossa69 wrote:Kicking myself here because I mistimed the final drop TWICE in a row. But... score!


This confirms for me it's the right decision to ban the kong exploit. Would it be fair for someone who only made it to level 8 to finish above you simply because they gave up playing the game and took a possible 10000 point bonus in exchange for their remaining lives.


Well, after playing it both ways, I'm kind of glad now I'm striving to get to the higher levels, and I now have a higher score to show for it.

I DO actually love this game! :D


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