Music 5000 in B-Em

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Coeus
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Coeus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:43 pm

Dave, it does seem to pick up -O3 if you set it in the environment but we probably should add it to Makefile.am.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Coeus » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:50 pm

I'll have to do some more digging on that "optimised" version. Trying to detect cases where a particular piece of the screen need not be redrawn does seem like it would be fairly complex. I did wonder if we could simply detect if any of the display RAM has been written to but this would have to be for a whole vertical refresh period, not just in the last clock cycle.

Having discovered that having video_poll do nothing resolves the problem I was looking for something that would be different between Windows and Linux and there are plenty of differences in vidalleg.c. On that basis I wondered if the issue was that the blit operation on Linux was blocking the calling process, whereas on Windows it didn't. To test that theory I implemented a version in which the blit happens in a different thread and that does seem to have made an improvement in the sense that AMPLE now does catch up again during Apache but it is not as effective as not doing all the work in video_poll.

The really puzzling thing is that the CPU usage is only about 25% of one core and instrumenting the main loop (main_run) shows that for the vast majority of 1us iterations the variable fcount, which seems to indicate the number of frames outstanding, being incremented by a 50ms timer, is zero so it doesn't even run the m6502_exec function and all the other stuff that goes with it. None of this suggests that the CPU is too slow overall.

Experimenting with threads, and also question of the video output, reminds me that Thomas was proposing to port B-Em to Allegro5. This was, I think, on the basis that it has some GUI functions built-in, like some native dialogs, rather than have to also import a library like Qt or GTK+, and because it was expected to be able to make use of hardware acceleration. I also note that it has a threads API and also changes to an event model rather than a polling method. I don't think this last point would necessarily be an issue. The two obvious questions I have are:

1. Are we right to expect better hawdware acceleration?
2. How easy is it to get allegro5 installed on Windows?

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hoglet
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby hoglet » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:03 pm

Coeus wrote:1. Are we right to expect better hawdware acceleration?

I think so.

Allegro 5 should also overcome the issues the people have with Allegro 4 not working on MAC OSX 10.7 and later.
Coeus wrote:2. How easy is it to get allegro5 installed on Windows?

There are binary packages available, for various versions on MinGW and MSVC,
https://www.allegro.cc/files/?v=5.0

It will be quite a bit of work.

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ThomasAdam
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby ThomasAdam » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:49 pm

Having already started to look into this, it's not so much a port, as it is a complete rewrite. That's important to note, because there's very few similarities between Allegro4 and Allegro5.

That said, what interests me about Allegro5 is the backend parts. On Windows, there's the use of its native GUI stuff, and on !Windows, you can use GTK. QT is questionable at this point; B-em is written in C, not C++.

It is per this example: https://github.com/liballeg/allegro5/bl ... /ex_menu.c -- that the possibilities of having a non-modal menu are realised, which would then be platform-agnostic, AIUI.

But, getting to that point isn't a small amount of work. I should really push what I have to Github; I've been a little busy with $LIFE -- sorry, chaps. There are other changes with Allegro5 that I've not looked into yet, but from what I've been seeing thus far, I think there's sill enough of the things we're making use in Allegro4 that are available in Allegro5 -- and by that, I mean all of the video rendering, etc.

Kindly,
Thomas

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby paddler » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:58 pm

Dave, thanks so much for your work on getting Music 500/5000 emulation working - I'm pretty sure it sounds better and clearer than my original Music 500 unit! I've not had the chance to hear any Music 500/5000 stuff since something went awry with my hardware years ago, causing it to produce distorted noise and not much else.

Just in case anyone is interested, I've uploaded some of my better Music 5000 creations from the 1989-1990 period (in various states of completion) here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-QhLh7MxUu1XzdXamFyTjdzU28 I'll add some more as and when I find them.

Regards,

Patrick

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Coeus » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:00 pm

For anyone interested in comparing I have put some recordings of the demo tunes on a real Music 500 on Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7B-w ... WJRQ0tiRW8

There are two versions of each file. The FLAC file with the name ending HQ is a losslessly compressed, 24bit 96Khz recording which is intended as a reference - these might, for example, reveal characteristics about the ouput filter etc. These files are big. The other version is an MP3 file which should still sound good and are smaller to download.

paddler wrote:Dave, thanks so much for your work on getting Music 500/5000 emulation working - I'm pretty sure it sounds better and clearer than my original Music 500 unit! I've not had the chance to hear any Music 500/5000 stuff since something went awry with my hardware years ago, causing it to produce distorted noise and not much else.


Do you still have the real hardware? I plugged mine in after it had been unused for well over 20 years and got silence. Reseating the 1Mhz bus connector got a jumbled and distorted sound and then inserting and removing it a few times to clean the contacts restored it to just as I remember. Maybe your issue was a dodgy connection too.

paddler wrote:Just in case anyone is interested, I've uploaded some of my better Music 5000 creations from the 1989-1990 period (in various states of completion) here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-QhLh7MxUu1XzdXamFyTjdzU28 I'll add some more as and when I find them.


I will listen to these. For 5000 format music I am limited to the emulator at the moment as I don't have the ROMs of SWRAM in the real BBC but I hope to resolve that next week. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby paddler » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:39 pm

Coeus wrote:Do you still have the real hardware? I plugged mine in after it had been unused for well over 20 years and got silence. Reseating the 1Mhz bus connector got a jumbled and distorted sound and then inserting and removing it a few times to clean the contacts restored it to just as I remember. Maybe your issue was a dodgy connection too.


I do have the original hardware somewhere. I'll give your suggestion a try. Thanks for the tip.

Regards,

Patrick

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby major_parts » Wed May 03, 2017 8:56 am

well done on the work put in to this! I prayed for the Beech developer to continue and thought it was abandoned.

There is a problem that has probably gone unnoticed...The disc image you provide contains a ROM that doesn't work properly. This may help Pixelblip with the staff editor....When you go to the staff editor and create a new word, TABbing onto the editor will clear that word and reset it back to "newword". Leaving it at "newword" and MAKEing will create an empty word.

Towards the end of the "Beech" thread, I attached a ROM image that works. There is also a M5000 disc image that I know will work with the ROM, should there be an issue with the ROM on its own.

Thanks for continuing this, it made my day finding out about it!

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby SimonSideburns » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:25 pm

I've recently become the owner of a Music 500 system and Symphony 4000 keyboard, along with a whole bunch of floppies and manuals.

In case there's anything of interest among the floppies, I have archived them with my DataCentre.

Some were 80 track, some 40, and some were 80 one side and 40 the other (which can't be exported in one go so there are some files with a 0 or 2 at the end indicating the side).

One of the disks is titled Music City, and one has files from the pet shop boys and is called Plaice, but changed into names of things sea related (such as West End Gills, and It's A Fin).

If there's an archive of songs that would be a great resource. I might have some on my DataCentre's USB stick.
Attachments
Ample and Hybrid Music System 500, 5000 and 4000 Keyboard.zip
Archive of disks exported (imaged) today
(583.27 KiB) Downloaded 31 times
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby danielj » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:41 am

Thanks Simon! :D

d.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby SimonSideburns » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:50 am

I forgot to mention, at least one of the disks when *CATted gives two pages of files on the screen (with a pause between).

I believe it is using a version of Solidisk DDFS. I hope you can view the files (if I work out which one I will try loading that DFS in BeebEm and see if I can see the double listing).

If it's inconvenient as it is, I can then try to grab half the files onto a normal floppy and put the others on another one.

EDIT: Just tried loading a version of Solidisk DFS into Beebem and it won't access any floppy, complaining of disk error without even trying.

However, I do note my emulator's hardware configuration is set to use the standard 8271 controller but the Solidisk comes up thinking it's using a 1770 (as reported on the initial boot screen in brackets alongside the name of the DFS).
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Pernod » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:16 am

SimonSideburns wrote:I forgot to mention, at least one of the disks when *CATted gives two pages of files on the screen (with a pause between).

I believe it is using a version of Solidisk DDFS. I hope you can view the files (if I work out which one I will try loading that DFS in BeebEm and see if I can see the double listing).

Which disk does this? I can try it in my MAME build that supports the Solidisk board.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby SimonSideburns » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:12 pm

Sorry, I forgot to include it in the archive previously.

Of the two files, one cannot be *IMPORTED into one of the the DataCentre's RAM drives, returning a Too Big error, the other is imported (only one side I think) but only shows 31 files out of the 43 on the disk.

I haven't tried to *IMPORT back to a physical disk as I don't have any blanks right now, but I did find a box of floppies with stuff on that has to be archived so I will do so and then see what I get back.

Will report back later.
Attachments
demotunes.zip
(171.16 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Pernod » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:27 pm

I was able to access the second catalogue using a Solidisk 2.2 DFS, and have copied all extra files to the attached SSD.
Attachments
demotunes_ext.zip
(26.74 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
- Nigel

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby cjr8bs » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:43 pm

Thanks for all the work here. Just what I was looking for to test out the 8BS music collection. I had both a M500 and M5000 many years ago but never did test all the music out. Will have a bash now.

I notice a couple of links to the 8BS website catalogue in this thread that will no longer work due to recent changes on the site (removed CGI).

Here is a link that will work

http://8bs.com/catalogue.htm

MUS02 was the one linked to from here. Click on 'MUS' to jump to the music section

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby cjr8bs » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:08 am

Right, having taken a brief look at the 8BS MUS section of the catalogue, I have realised there is a bit of sorting out required there. While I am at it, if anyone has discs of M5000 music, I would appreciate copies to add to the library

Chris

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby cjr8bs » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:49 am

The reorganisation of the 8BS Music section is now complete. I have individually examined and catalogued almost every file in that section. The main catalogue page does not contain the detailed descriptions, they are available as a separate html page in a passworded zip file. 8BS being the way in.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby Hedge » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:02 pm

cjr8bs wrote:The reorganisation of the 8BS Music section is now complete. I have individually examined and catalogued almost every file in that section. The main catalogue page does not contain the detailed descriptions, they are available as a separate html page in a passworded zip file. 8BS being the way in.


Hey thanks for all the obvious effort you have put in to the site Chris. Lots of new stuff to browse through. :D
I especially appreciate all the book links since the demise of the previous reference book site. =D>

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby cjr8bs » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:50 pm

Hedge wrote:Hey thanks for all the obvious effort you have put in to the site Chris. Lots of new stuff to browse through. :D
I especially appreciate all the book links since the demise of the previous reference book site. =D>


Thanks for the thanks. Lots more to come too

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby K.D. » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:10 am

I've just come upon this thread and thought it might be useful to point out that there is a large source of AMPLE music with accompanying MP3 files (recorded directly from the Music 5000 hardware) at http://amplinex.tumblr.com/. I set up this archive as I edited the AMPLINEX disc magazine and wanted to archive the magazine contents. I also have a large collection of published AMPLE music discs which I am in the process of backing up.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby ctr » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:46 pm

K.D. wrote:a large source of AMPLE music with accompanying MP3 files (recorded directly from the Music 5000 hardware) at http://amplinex.tumblr.com/.

This is excellent. I stumbled across it a couple of months ago while looking for some music to test beebem.

I did notice one minor hiccup: disk 22 seems to be a copy of disk 4.

Thank you for making this available.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby riggar » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:23 pm

Hi All,

Stumbled across this site whilst doing a fun search for AMPLE. Used to have the 5000 and 4000 keyboard years ago.
Can I just say - Wow! and big thanks to the people that put it together - is it Dave that's main man?

Haven't touched the Beeb or an emulator since forever - so all very new an quite exciting. Running through the setup worked a treat and was able to key into the Notepad - good old 'Oranges and Lemons' from the user guide and hear it play back.

As a complete new person to this I've got a couple of funnies that would be good to sort out if anyone can help?

From the user guide it says key F0 to get back to the main menu - Ah! no F0 function key here - is there a way back?
And I wanted to save my O&L masterpiece! - but getting a READ ONLY error msg.
I can see from settings that the disk is write protected - ok to 'untick' - don't want to break anything

many thanks R

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby ctr » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:43 pm

riggar wrote:As a complete new person to this I've got a couple of funnies that would be good to sort out if anyone can help?

From the user guide it says key F0 to get back to the main menu - Ah! no F0 function key here - is there a way back?
And I wanted to save my O&L masterpiece! - but getting a READ ONLY error msg.
I can see from settings that the disk is write protected - ok to 'untick' - don't want to break anything

many thanks R

F10 serves as F0 in most (all?) beeb emulators.

When you untick the write protection you are just allowing the emulator to write to the ssd file. If you want to be sure you can recover from any mistakes then make a copy of the ssd file outside of the emulator (e.g. using Windows Explorer).

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby K.D. » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:44 pm

ctr wrote:
K.D. wrote:a large source of AMPLE music with accompanying MP3 files (recorded directly from the Music 5000 hardware) at http://amplinex.tumblr.com/.

This is excellent. I stumbled across it a couple of months ago while looking for some music to test beebem.

I did notice one minor hiccup: disk 22 seems to be a copy of disk 4.

Thank you for making this available.


Thanks. I'll check out that error.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby chrisn » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:45 pm

K.D. wrote:I've just come upon this thread and thought it might be useful to point out that there is a large source of AMPLE music with accompanying MP3 files (recorded directly from the Music 5000 hardware) at http://amplinex.tumblr.com/. I set up this archive as I edited the AMPLINEX disc magazine and wanted to archive the magazine contents. I also have a large collection of published AMPLE music discs which I am in the process of backing up.

I found that website a while ago and wondered who'd set it up... I was an Amplinex subscriber, with fond memories of sending floppy disks in the post to get the latest music and articles. Thank you for your efforts back then, and for preserving the content online :D Welcome to the forum!

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby hoglet » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:00 pm

riggar wrote:Stumbled across this site whilst doing a fun search for AMPLE. Used to have the 5000 and 4000 keyboard years ago.
Can I just say - Wow! and big thanks to the people that put it together - is it Dave that's main man?

I think all credit should actually go to Chris Jordan, who the designer of the original hardware. It really is a most amazingly clever design.

Dave

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby riggar » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:47 am

Thanks for info - that'll keep me going. Dave - yep your're right CJ did a great job. (However not to discount your efforts!) In hindsight it was a pretty remarkable package for it's day. If I remember correctly the Fairlight, which cost the same as a house at the time, was an bit 8 bit synthesizer, albeit 10 years earlier.

My dream - would be to have AMPLE on a modern platform - and using the MIDI programming capability - to output data to my modular synth!

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby BBCB+64K » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:34 pm

Amplinex disk 3 is not downloadable, it says the file download has been disabled.

Steve
My current setup...

BBC B+ 128k with external DataCentre with 2GB CF Card, 64MB ARM7TDMI Co-Processor and BeebOPL.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby K.D. » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:10 am

I've fixed the issues with AMPLINEX discs 003 and 022. Thanks again for the feedback.

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Re: Music 5000 in B-Em

Postby pixelblip » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:30 am

Hi there.
I was wondering do you think it's possible or within the realms of possibility to add midi input to the emulation of Music 5000? I guess you would need the source code?

Music 4000s are hard to come by now. It would be great to see some new music coming out and I'd love to have a bash but the thought of programming a tune in Ample again is a bit much! :) It would be great to be able to hook up a cheap midi keyboard to Beeb em and keep Music 5000 alive for years to come. Eventually the hardware will fail.

Making music with the keyboard was so much easier.

I've got a feeling this isn't so easy. Maybe someone who designed it could chip in please?
What is interesting is that it supported midi with Music 2000. So midi is there somewhere.

Thanks


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