Creating Master 512 Disks

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hoglet
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Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:48 pm

Hi all,

Can anyone assist me in creating a set of Master 512 Disks?

I'd like to start with the DOS Plus Boot disk, which I believe is some weird hybrid ADFS/DOS combination

Unfortunately, the normal place I would go for Master 512 info is down at the moment:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/

Help!!!!

Dave

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flynnjs
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby flynnjs » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:37 pm


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danielj
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:41 pm

It's back up!

I used method 3:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... thod3.html

I used an emulator to get the type in program onto a disc image without typing it in.

d.

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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:23 pm

danielj wrote:It's back up!

And back down again..... :?

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:33 pm

Archive.org is your friend in these situations...

https://web.archive.org/web/20090106163 ... thod3.html

Only on a mobile phone so haven't checked the links all work...

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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:42 pm

danielj wrote:Archive.org is your friend in these situations...

https://web.archive.org/web/20090106163 ... thod3.html

Only on a mobile phone so haven't checked the links all work...

It doesn't have the actual ZIP packages.

Ah well... time for a break any way.

Also, I really struggle to find DD floppy disks that work. Does anyone know of any good sources of these (for both 5.25 and 3.5)?

Dave

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paulv
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby paulv » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:53 pm

Site's up for me. I've attached the packages here...

Paul
Attachments
m512-sysdisks-34.zip
(1.38 MiB) Downloaded 62 times
m512-sysdisks-2.zip
(1.5 MiB) Downloaded 58 times
m512-sysdisks-1.zip
(1.84 MiB) Downloaded 60 times

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jgharston
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby jgharston » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:53 pm

hoglet wrote:Also, I really struggle to find DD floppy disks that work. Does anyone know of any good sources of these (for both 5.25 and 3.5)?
I've got piles of both. I could even copy the DOS Plus disks onto some for you.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:59 pm

paulv wrote:Site's up for me. I've attached the packages here...

Many thanks...

Weird, it's still not working for me.

Next challenge, getting a 5.25" drive to work on my old PC. I've never had much luck at doing this with old Beeb drives.

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby firthmj » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:07 pm

I wonder if there is enough interest in making Master 512 disks to be worth looking at converting the solutions on the http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/ page to work with some of the modern file transfer solutions - e.g.

1) Images to transfer with UPURS
2) DSD images for use on USB with DataCentres.
3) A CF ADFS image for use with either DataCentre, or other CF interfaces
4) Getting the files able to work over Econet - there's a comment on one of the pages of the transfer being incompatible with the Master ANFS ROM.

I guess if there is more sterling progress towards getting an 80x86 solution available on the LX9 co-pro, the number of people interested in Master 512 images may rise sharply!

Regards

Michael
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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:46 pm

OK, I think I have successfully made a DOS Plus boot disk using method 1 (and Omniflop).

Back to the other thread

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby MartinB » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:46 pm

Michael wrote:I wonder if there is enough interest in making Master 512 disks to be worth looking at converting the solutions on the http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/ page to work with some of the modern file transfer solutions - e.g.

1) Images to transfer with UPURS
2) DSD images for use on USB with DataCentres.
3) A CF ........

I've only just noticed this whilst avidly following the sterling work of Dave [hoglet] on the co-pro thread.... =D> 8)

I've a fair few Acorn development projects on the go at the moment but I could see if I can make time to look at a bespoke version of UPURS dedicated to transferring and writing these 512 discs - sounds interesting! Thing is, I don't have a Master 512 and more importantly, I can't seem to figure out from the various resources the definitive list of required discs or the precise format of each of these discs. Could someone enlighten me with details of tracks, sectors sector sizes, layout etc. and the format of the corresponding available images so I can look at the feasibility...?
Ta.

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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:56 pm

I would love a CF Image that could be used in Data Centre :D

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:51 pm

Martin, there are a few odd formats - the 640k ADFS/DOS (which I think to all intents and purposes is just ADFS) and 800K DOS are the main ones for installation. Check the table at the bottom of this page:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... ormat.html

Meanwhile, Dave, I have one of those (well, I've got it installed on my CF drive). I'll see if I can extract it somehow... Do you have ADFS explorer?

d.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:59 pm

danielj wrote:Meanwhile, Dave, I have one of those (well, I've got it installed on my CF drive). I'll see if I can extract it somehow... Do you have ADFS explorer?

Yes I do.

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:05 pm

OK, I'll try and yoink the drive image off (it's stored in a single big file), you should then just be able to dump it into an image which you can then cfrestore back to your CF card... I'll hopefully manage to give it a go tomorrow!

d.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby MartinB » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:06 pm

Daniel wrote:Martin, there are a few odd formats - the 640k ADFS/DOS (which I think to all intents and purposes is just ADFS) and 800K DOS are the main ones for installation. Check the table at the bottom of this page:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... ormat.html

Thanks Daniel - yeah, I'd seen that but I'm still not sure which of the formats listed apply to which discs and how many of each are in the 512 'set' etc. etc. :? :roll:

I guess I was hoping some kind person might spoon-feed me with "here are images A - K and here's the format, layout, protocol for each".... O:) 8)

If not, I'll wade through and try to figure it all out myself but tbh, there's more chance of my grasshopper attention span just moving on.... :lol:

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:10 pm

From memory - the first one (boot) is in the 640k format, the rest are in the 800k format. I'll have to sit down with them and have a poke to confirm though...

d.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby firthmj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:13 pm

MartinB wrote:
Daniel wrote:Martin, there are a few odd formats - the 640k ADFS/DOS (which I think to all intents and purposes is just ADFS) and 800K DOS are the main ones for installation. Check the table at the bottom of this page:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... ormat.html

Thanks Daniel - yeah, I'd seen that but I'm still not sure which of the formats listed apply to which discs and how many of each are in the 512 'set' etc. etc. :? :roll:

I guess I was hoping some kind person might spoon-feed me with "here are images A - K and here's the format, layout, protocol for each".... O:) 8)

If not, I'll wade through and try to figure it all out myself but tbh, there's more chance of my grasshopper attention span just moving on.... :lol:


I think images of the 4 disks which came with the Master 512 would be a good starting point (or equivalent later versions if appropriate)

I think the first disk is in the 640k ADFS/DOS format, which is the complicated one, and the other three are all the 800K format.

I'm not sure what the best source of the 4 disks is - perhaps JGH or Dave has a reference?

Regards

Michael
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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:22 pm

firthmj wrote:I'm not sure what the best source of the 4 disks is - perhaps JGH or Dave has a reference?

I've been using these ones:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... thod1.html
and writing the disks with Omniflop.

Dave

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby danielj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:28 pm

Best source is the "Method 1" package on cowsarenotpurple:

http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... thod1.html

The M512_1.IMG image looks like it's sequential ADFS (side 0 all tracks, then side 1 all tracks). The M512_1.ADL looks like it's interleaved like a dos disc.

Double density, 256byte sectors, 16/sectors/track (numbered 0-15).

All of the rest of them are interleaved (track 0, side 0, track 0 side 1 etc..)...
1024byte sectors, 5 sectors per track (numbered 1-5).

Does that fill in the required info? :)

d.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby MartinB » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:40 pm

Yes, probably Daniel - I'll have a look thanks :)

In the context of UPURS, the specific version of a given image doesn't matter, just as long as I have a valid example of each. A bespoke '512' UPURS would just offer a choice of PC image to Beeb disc transfer methods expecting for each, a particular protocol of source image and writing to a specific format of destination disc. UPURS isn't ever aware of what is being transferred, even the current version - that's why it happily (in ignorance) transfers the 2P Z80 CP/M discs now in addition to DFS discs. Really then, I just need to know what are the required destination formats and to have for each, a valid example of the corresponding source image.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby firthmj » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:15 pm

Yes, I wasn't thinking - the image versions aren't an issue, just examples of the two formats of source file.

I think the description of the "Method 3 and 4" archive suggests it contains the most images to test with though.

And (probably repitition) the two Cows Are Not Purple pages for the disk types and contents are:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... m.html#dsd

Format details:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... ormat.html

I guess a chicken and egg problem that exists with the Master 512 that doesn't for other transfers is that there isn't (I don't think) a non 80186 based formatter for the 800k format disks.

So, until the user has the first disk transferred and working, they can't format the rest.

Again one for the assembled experts:

How hard would it be to create a BBC 6502 assembler formatter for the 800k disk format?

Is it something that OSWORD &72 can do, or is it by raw disk controller access only?

Regards

Michael
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby jgharston » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:21 pm

firthmj wrote:I guess a chicken and egg problem that exists with the Master 512 that doesn't for other transfers is that there isn't (I don't think) a non 80186 based formatter for the 800k format disks.

RISC OS. 800K DOS is just bog standard 800K ADFS (5 sectors of 1024 bytes), with a DOS filesystem instead of an ADFS filesystem. So, ImgToDisk should do it:

ImgToDisk imagefile 0 -size 800k -f

My A5000 is in the middle of backing up the server at the moment, I'll check in a few of minutes.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby MartinB » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:30 pm

Thanks Michael - although the current UPURS assumes a pre-formatted disc, I was expecting a new bespoke version to format these 512 discs on the fly and I was assuming that the 1772 can do it. I have already written 6502 utilities that read and write DOS discs (I wrote them for my RAMagic! gadget of a few years ago) so unless any of these these 512 variations are quad-density (i.e. 'HD') then I think we're ok. The 800k one for example seems perfectly do-able with low-level 1772 commands unless anyone knows different...?

EDIT : I think what Jonathan has written above confirms that we're ok because the 800k format is just a big ADFS layout and the content (file system etc.), UPURS doesn't care about.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby jgharston » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:18 am

MartinB wrote:EDIT : I think what Jonathan has written above confirms that we're ok because the 800k format is just a big ADFS layout and the content (file system etc.), UPURS doesn't care about.
I've just checked, and the 800K format is superficially 800K ADFS, but the TwoCows site says the sectors are numbered from 1, not from 0. (Can somebody who has access to physical disks check that? I'll have a rummage and see if I have any DOS PLUS disks to check.)

ImgToDisk will write an image to a pre-formatted disk, but isn't currently able to format the disk as it uses the inbuilt RISC OS ADFS FORMAT command which can either format a disk with any sector size with sectors counting up from 0 ADFS-style, or format a disk with sectors counting up from 1 but with only with 512-byte sectors DOS-style. I'll have to get around to adding some general manual formatting code.

There was a suite of programs from BAKSOFT for the Master for transfering files between various Acorn, DOS/DOSPLUS and CPM/CPN disks. I've just had a quick check and it has a 'Format' function, so it can probably create blank 800K DOS disks.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby jgharston » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 am

jgharston wrote:I've just checked, and the 800K format is superficially 800K ADFS, but the TwoCows site says the sectors are numbered from 1, not from 0. (Can somebody who has access to physical disks check that? I'll have a rummage and see if I have any DOS PLUS disks to check.)
Yes, just checked a DOS PLUS disk, each track has 1024-byte sectors numbered 1,2,3,4,5. Formatting a disk as ADFS D has 1024-byte sectors numbered 0,1,2,3,4. I'll see if I can add the required generic formatting code to ImgToDisk before Halifax.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby MartinB » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:43 pm

Jonathan - do you therefore have (or will have after some tweaking) a stand-alone formatter (or formatters) that will format the two required disc types for this 512 set? If you do, it seems pointless my adding formatting to UPURS, I'll just modify my code and produce bespoke versions of the PC_to_Beeb utilities that write the 512 source images to pre-formatted discs as it does now but using the new layouts.

Assuming you do have a such a formatter, does it require a Master or will it also run on a 177x-based Beeb?

Ta.

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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby jgharston » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:11 pm

MartinB wrote:Jonathan - do you therefore have (or will have after some tweaking) a stand-alone formatter (or formatters) that will format the two required disc types for this 512 set? (...)
Assuming you do have a such a formatter, does it require a Master or will it also run on a 177x-based Beeb?
After some minor tweeking, it will do 1-based sector numbering, ie it will do 800K DOSPlus disks. It runs on RISC OS, Master or BBC, and will do whatever format the computer's disk controller can do - ie, on the Master or BBC+1770 it will do double density up to 800K disk.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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hoglet
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Re: Creating Master 512 Disks

Postby hoglet » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:11 pm

hoglet wrote:I would love a CF Image that could be used in Data Centre :D

I'm making some progress to this.

Daniel has sent me an image of his DOSPLUS partition, created with cfbackup.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to run cfrestore because don't have a CF Writer on my Windows box.

So, I've been trying unsuccessfully to restore this on Linux.

The obvious thing of dd'ing it to the whole drive (/dev/sdc) doesn't work.

At this point, I realized I don't understand what partitioning scheme is used on DataCentre CF Cards. There is a nifty Ubuntu Utility called acorn-fdisk, that support the following partitioning schemes:

Code: Select all

                  EESOX            Eesox SCSI on the Acorn machines.

                  ICSIDEFS         ICS IDE.

                  Filecore/Linux   Linux on Filecore.  This uses the non-ADFS descriptor to point to the
                                   start of the disc to be partitioned.  The first two sectors contain a
                                   partition table to identify the Linux partitions contained within.

                  PC/BIOS          PC/BIOS partitioning scheme.  This consists of a partition table in
                                   the first sector of the disk which contains both CHS and LBA values
                                   for the partitions.  There can be up to four entries in the primary
                                   partition table.  One of these can be an extended partition containing
                                   up to four extra partitions.

                  PowerTec         PowerTec SCSI on the Acorn machines.

                  Filecore/RISCiX  RiscIX on Filecore.

Anyone any idea which one I should use?

Dave


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