! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

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PitfallJones
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby PitfallJones » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:32 pm

Some success!

I retried connecting everything and now the green light comes on with the drive connected in the middle of the cable and via *DRIVE 1.

It accepts the commands *FORM 80 1 (or *FORM 40 1) and does the formatting clunking sound but when it gets to the last track it makes a load of noise and says

formatting drive 1 track 27 (or 4F)
Disc fault 18 @ :1 00/00

and I can't *CAT the disk.

Am I supposed to be formatting these disks this way - why would it format to 700K instead of 100K?

It's possible my floppies are bad (I'll have to find some new 720Ks online) - although they work on the pc.

- PJ

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MartinB
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby MartinB » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:40 pm

If you're using HD discs with the hole covered then expect nothing but misery and frustration :wink: If it's a true DD disc then yes, it's likely duff. What you're doing is fine and the DFS will indeed format to 200k (80T) per side, it won't go higher without a double density DFS or ADFS where you can get about 600+K.

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PitfallJones
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby PitfallJones » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:48 pm

Ah - OK -thanks for the help -I'll have to wait to get some real 720s then...
- PJ

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby PitfallJones » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:08 pm

Even more success!

So I was having the problem with the BBC failing to *CAT the 3.5 disk after it had just formatted it.

I decided to try omniflop on the PC to do the formatting - I picked the 80 track 200K format. (At first I was using my old enormous and loud ancient PC but then had the brainwave of using an old laptop instead - much more convenient)

The BBC managed to actually *CAT the disk now put it looked slightly corrupted with e's in the directory. I could also *SAVE files from the BBC, but they wouldn't load back in. (The directory looked like the SAVE information had been shifted a few bytes.)

So then I tried to write an existing disk image in omniflop (Hopper actually) and that managed to *CAT and run on the BBC! It even works with 1.44MB disks with the hole covered.

The image was far less sectors than a whole disk - maybe that's why I was having more success?

Anyhow so my final question is - how do I make it drive 0?

Do I need a cable with the BBC twist in it - or is there another method?
How do you make that cable - seems to me like the twist could only be made before the connector is connected - I don't have any special cable making tools.

I have a standard pc floppy cable that also has a twist - but I'm guessing this is a different twist?


- PJ
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MartinB
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby MartinB » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:05 pm

Hi again PJ - Yes, the PC 'twist' affects too many cores and is not suitable for use with the Beeb. The photo that Col McD posted is correct in that it shows three cores have been twisted but these are twisted 'about' the centre of the three (11) and therefore only two cores are swapped, namely 10 & 12. Unless you are up-to snipping, extending and re-soldering a swap-over then you do need to make the twist before the second connector is fitted. You don't really need special tools and you might be able to remove an existing connector but if not, start from scratch with some ribbon cable and three 34-way IDC connectors. These are fairly easy to fit just using a small vice and I'm sure you will be able to find a guide on the net. Fit the Beeb end, fit the first drive connector and then, using a sharp knife, slit from the free end of the cable down to where the twist will be on either side of cores 10 & 12 such that 10,11 & 12 are now a free triple. (Actually, it's usually easiest to start a slit with a knife and then gently 'tear' down to the required point.) Then, form the twist and lay the triple back in the 'gap' in the ribbon cable as you fit the last connector. If your connectors have the locating 'bump', check carefully before crimping them on that they will fit as you intend keeping the Beeb and drives Pin 1's all common.

It's actually a lot easier to do than it is to explain :wink:

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby PitfallJones » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:51 am

!!! Result !!!
It all works now - shift break will boot the disk as drive#0.
Thanks for the help.

I had to buy a crimper in the end:
I messed up my first try trying to do it by hand (against a block of wood...)

Those IDC connectors are devilishly difficult to separate in the first place as well - I broke a couple trying.


I started with a PC cable and removed it's last connector. It had a twist from 10-16 so I split the cable along 12 and twisted 13-16 back and so then only needed to add one new connector.

- PJ

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Prime » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:57 am

PitfallJones wrote:!!! Result !!!
It all works now - shift break will boot the disk as drive#0.
Thanks for the help.

I had to buy a crimper in the end:
I messed up my first try trying to do it by hand (against a block of wood...)


I personally use a small vice tightened down onto the connector, this has the advantage of applying the pressure evenly across the connector so there's less chance of breaking it. Never, ever try and use pliers or mole grips for floppy sized connectors, it's way too easy to break them.

Those IDC connectors are devilishly difficult to separate in the first place as well - I broke a couple trying.


They're not too bad with a little priactice and the correct tools, a stanley or similar knife to gently prize the ends open one at a time works well for me, though I have been doing this for a number of years now, so have had plenty of practice........

Cheers,

Phill.

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby CharlesMouse » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:23 pm

My thanks to all who contributed to this thread - it's been so many years since I last had a Beeb I'm not sure 3.5" drives were generally available.

Job Done
Image

Did I do a bad thing? :wink:
Last edited by CharlesMouse on Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby sorvad » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:36 am

Neatly done sir ! Doesn't actually look out of place, reminds me of the A3000. The 3.5" drives were generally available back when the Masters first came out but probably a bit too expensive back then to include as standard without make the price look massive.

Really neat job though, :)

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Station5 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:42 am

could we have more pics of that please? and from the inside!
super!

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby retroclinic » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:17 am

Aye =D> to that man.

Do you not have to sacrifice the top pillar in that area when putting a drive in that position on the Master?

Mark.
Image

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CharlesMouse
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby CharlesMouse » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:20 pm

Thanks for the kind comments chaps. :D

I'll post more piccies shortly...

@Mark:
Yes, the pillar did have to go I'm afraid. For now it remains sturdy enough, but I may look in to attaching it's remains to the FDD eventually.
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby CharlesMouse » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:43 pm

Piccies:

Higher Resolution Photo
Image
Showing Floppy Drive

How?
The Hole:
-Take front plate of FDD, hold up to the inside of the case and draw round it.
-Dremmel just inside those lines to cut out the hole. Smaller than needed as you can remove plastic but not put it back if you go too far.
-Best to cover outside with sticky tape to avoid accidental scratches.
-Cover a metal ruler with 800-ish grit wet 'n dry to neaten the edges and adjust the fit for the FDD facia...
...'better' than a file as being nice 'n wide you've got a better chance @ a straight edge and nice 'angular' corners to match the FDD face plate. A little at a time and keep checking the fit to make it at neat as possible.
-Keep the opening good and tight as this can be part of the 'mounting solution'...
Mounting:
-The position was mostly 'chosen' so I could use the case to line up to FDD drive.
-Sadly the screw pillar had to go.
-Attachment was by the wedged face-plate and double-sided sticky-tape! Usually I use clear fishtank sealant as it's strong, non-reactive, and unlike hot-glue can be removed if needed.
-FDD power connector soldered in to the Master's (thankfully) 5v internal harness.

MMC Card Poking out.
Image

Insides.
Image

...Showing:
-Turbo MMC upgrade - for FDD images. ROM reinserted in to the correct place since this photo was taken. (I'm new to this)
-JK's most excellent ReCo6502 - with WD65C816 & ReTuLa...
...currently plumbed in to the external Tube Port, but with thanks to station240 it will soon be connected to the internal ports. For the mo' I needed to make a slightly longer Tube cable than supplied for positioning.
-The CMOS battery was b*ggered so is now 3xAA cell + resistor + diode.
-I was going to roll my own (updated) MOS ROM but have bagged one of Mark's OS3.2/3.5 upgrades - the '3.2' may get further fiddling for mouse support if I find one of those. (3.21)
-I was also going to build an 8bit IDE interface but (again) as Mark does such a nice one I shall probably be contacting him very soon.

...I guess that will do. :)

-It would be marvellous if GEOS could be made to work on the Beeb (should I get a mouse) though Yrrah2's take on the 'Beeb GUI' is rather nice.
-I wonder if there's a way of getting a genuine 16 colours out of a Beeb?

Sorry if all this is a bit off-topic.

*Edit*
I've just received one of Mark's most excellent MOS320/350 boards - working very well...
...one slight issue:
If there happens to be a 3.5" FDD installed above it there's not quite enough head-room for the two-pin MOS select header.
Easy Fix:
-Pull the polarising shroud from the pins with needle-nose pliers.
-Use said pliers to (carefully) bend the pins through 90deg and connect the switch.
Last edited by CharlesMouse on Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby sorvad » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:29 pm

Great detailed post, really is a slick tidy job

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby CharlesMouse » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:17 am

sorvad wrote:Great detailed post, really is a slick tidy job


Thank you.
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Robin
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Robin » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:06 pm

So...is there ANYWAY of using HD floppies?

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby sorvad » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:45 pm

If you've not read this thread;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1884

Then have a read from MartinB's first post onwards. Lots of pages as Martin did a lot of work and research on this. If you have any questions on his posts he's always very helpful and happy to answer.

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby jeggy111 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:44 am

MartinB wrote:If you're using HD discs with the hole covered then expect nothing but misery and frustration :wink: If it's a true DD disc then yes, it's likely duff. What you're doing is fine and the DFS will indeed format to 200k (80T) per side, it won't go higher without a double density DFS or ADFS where you can get about 600+K.


Odd; With the hole covered in my homemade dual drive they work fine as the 720's
Why do I keep buying broken stuff?

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MartinB
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby MartinB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:41 pm

They will wait until any data-loss causes you maximum hurt and then pounce by unleashing their fiendish 'Now you see it, Now you don't' trick :wink:

If you haven't done so, you should set aside some time to read through the thread that sorvad pointed to and you will see that your experience is not particulary unusual but is still subject to the caveat that you are on dodgy ground. (Well, on dodgy media anyway.... :) )

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Robin » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:06 pm

How can you tell the difference between 1770DC and 8271DC??
Thanks

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MartinB
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby MartinB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:20 pm

If it's a Master it's a 177x FDC, if it's a Beeb you can either open it up and look (bottom left, large 40 pin chip marked 8271 or a small plug-in PCB which holds a 177x) or type *HELP DFS and let us know what version it says and we can tell you the FDC you have.

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Robin » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:27 pm

for god sake its a 8271, no chance for a floppy to work then :/
Where can i get the 1770 ??

Thanks

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby retroclinic » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:36 pm

I've got 1770/2 kits for the Model B in various guises, PM me if you need one.

Mark.
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby Robin » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:47 pm

pm sent :P

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DaveG
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby DaveG » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:15 am

been messing about with my bin found master...

what a pain, some of my beeb software doesn't work
i got stuck in that databses thing arrrgh

so i've orderd a watford one from ya via ebay

stick it in the proper shaped beeb without the extra bits to confuse
and i'll feel more at home

Dave

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby retroclinic » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:05 pm

Yes, thanks for the order. I'll post that out on Monday.

Regards, Mark.
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby zz9zzzalpha » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:09 pm

Got a 3.5 drive from an old dell machine and using a cannibalised :twisted: 5 .25 connecter from a beeb connected to a BBC B and using a 720k disc, and a welcome disc in SSD in my MMC, tried *form40 & *form80. It tries but gets to 00 in stops with a “Verify error”. I’ve had a look through the post but cant find a solution any suggestions :?:

Cheers
Ian
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MartinB
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby MartinB » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:10 pm

Hi Ian :D
Are you back to a 177x DFS? If not, you need a patched 8271 DFS such as Sprow's V1.21.
Are you sure it's a DD 720k disc? Sounds a bit HD to me :-k
Are you sure you've carried out the 'cannibalisation' correctly?

After that, it's just you that's jinxed :wink:

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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby zz9zzzalpha » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:51 am

MartinB wrote:Hi Ian :D
Are you back to a 177x DFS? If not, you need a patched 8271 DFS such as Sprow's V1.21.
Are you sure it's a DD 720k disc? Sounds a bit HD to me :-k
Are you sure you've carried out the 'cannibalisation' correctly?

After that, it's just you that's jinxed :wink:


Hi Martin

Disc is 3M 3.5, DS 1mb (which if i remember formats to 720k)

Double checked my cable and all seems fine

Then

Duh, Banging head on table #-o #-o #-o is an 8271.

Moral - Read the post properly next time #-o :oops:

Ian C (from under a rock :oops: )
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Re: ! ! 3 1/2" PC Drive/s on a beeb ! !

Postby redland_doug » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:19 pm

Hi Everyone!

My first post, so please be gentle!

I recently picked up a Master 128 plus 5.25 floppies on eBay. I never had one in my teens (I was a C64 developer back then), but I'd used Beebs back then, and knew they were good. Anyway, my daughter has expressed a strong interest in following her old man into coding, and I thought a good place to start would be BBC Basic. Hence the Master. I got a mate to solder up a scart lead, and we were off! In the box I got the Beeb, a twin floppy drive (AC powered) and two single floppy drives (DC powered) and a bunch of old disks. The two DC powered drives seemed DOA, but the twin worked.

I tried a few disks, and they cat'ed ok, then I tried another, and the drive made a heck of a noise, and now no longer wants to read anything. Lots of Error 18 at 00/00. I'm pretty sure that the heads have picked up crap off these ancient disks, and are gunged up. Putting in a clean disk and trying to cat it, then checking the surface of the disk shows scratches that weren't there before.

I could try cleaning the heads, but there seems little chance of picking up non-dodgy 5.25 inch disks these days. I hope 3.5 inch disks will be a bit better - hence this post.

If I pick up one of these :
http://www.maplin.co.uk/3.5in-floppy-disk-drive-161
and these:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/floppy-cable-10946

and some 720K floppies (eBay seems to have some), how do I proceed? Will it work?

Many thanks,

Doug


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