LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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danielj
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby danielj » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:10 am

The image looks pretty nice and clear. How is it in mode 0/3?

By the time I've toyed with all these "cheaper options" I probably should have just bought an Extron...

Do we know who's definitely posting out V4.0s? I just fired a tentative question to one seller (whose image is a v4.0) asking which version of the board it was, they replied telling me it was a GBS8200.

That was useful.

:)

d.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby TopBanana » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:27 pm

MartinB wrote:Bless you :D


Yuk ! :lol:

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby TopBanana » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:35 pm

elecdrum wrote:can't actually see the dust on the screen from here, but that was the only way I could give an idea of the crispness of the characters, the camera refused to focus on the characters but loved the dust. (A photographic genius is Born !!)


Probably a camera made in the same mould as LandRovers then :lol:

Photographs on LCD screens I find work best in a room with average light, screen brightness turned up and no flash on the camera.

All that aside, the quality of the picture looks fab, although is it any better than just a plain SCART ?
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Lion
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby Lion » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:04 pm

For what it's worth, I've found the upscaler in most modern LCD televisions does a pretty great job using an RGB -> SCART cable, and there are only a very small number of LCD TVs that don't have a SCART socket. Maybe that number will increase in the future, but I imagine you'll be able to find a high quality LCD with a SCART socket for at least the next 10 to 20 years or so.

Here are some photos of my BBC Master on my (now (s)old) Sony LCD television:

http://gallery.mac.com/mwongozi/100396

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Room5
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby Room5 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:39 pm

I've briefly experimented with my Sony KDL-32D3000 LCD TV from my Model B via one of Mark's SCART cables.

It wasn't an exhaustive experiment, but results were mixed. With most things, it worked perfectly. It seemed to be things that do clever stuff with odd display modes (e.g. Elite) that confused it. The TV was getting confused about timing, with various rolling effects.

I'm now using a CUB that I paid £15 for on eBay. It's quite hard on the eye, flickers (I've got so used to LCD, I'd forgotten how tiring it can be staring at a CRT with a low refresh rate) and the image distorts slightly as the brightness changes, but it's all part of the nostalgic experience for me, so not a problem. It also gives off a nice vintage warm electronics smell that no modern display can replicate. :)

Simon.

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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:07 pm

paulv wrote:
Now the answer you really want to know is to the question: does this work with a Beeb?
Does it need to? I thought the Beeb/Master/Elk output CSYNC anyway :?

Paul
Quite right Paul, Beeb's etc do indeed produce a CSync signal.

On a Beeb a 74LS86 (IC48) is used to produce positive or negative sync depending on the position of S31. The CSync signal coming to the 74LS86 via a 74LS02 NOR gate (IC41) which combines the HS and VS from the 6845 video chip.

What I was really trying to say(!), is that I have not tried any of my Acorn kit with the GBS-8200 V4.0 board yet.

I included the sync combiner circuit in case it is of use with other systems and to show that the GBS-8200 V4.0 board will work with a CSync signal.

Mark K.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby elecdrum » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:19 am

All that aside, the quality of the picture looks fab, although is it any better than just a plain SCART ?



well went back to scart and there's that 50 hertz thing... but no sign of it with this. Also it looks to me as if it will fit inside the beeb.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby firthmj » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:43 am

Hi,

Mark: Would be great if you could find some time to connect your GBS8200 to a Beeb and report back.

It looks like the GBS8220 is very similar, but with dual outputs. They seem to be available even cheaper:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARCADE-GAME-R ... 447wt_1002

At that price I might just take a punt on one. Does anyone know if the +5V output on the Beeb's RGB socket would be suitable to power the converter?

I can see a pre-configured 8220 in a box with a 6-pin panel mounting DIN on the input side coming on...

Thanks

Michael
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby TopBanana » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:00 am

elecdrum wrote:well went back to scart and there's that 50 hertz thing..


50Hz thing ???? #-o

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danielj
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby danielj » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:18 am

firthmj wrote:At that price I might just take a punt on one. Does anyone know if the +5V output on the Beeb's RGB socket would be suitable to power the converter?


It seems to want 2A, that's quite a bit of juice. Don't think you can put that sort of demand on the RGB port?

d.

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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:06 pm

danielj wrote:
firthmj wrote:At that price I might just take a punt on one. Does anyone know if the +5V output on the Beeb's RGB socket would be suitable to power the converter?
It seems to want 2A, that's quite a bit of juice. Don't think you can put that sort of demand on the RGB port?
d.

I have just powered up my GBS-8200 V4.0 board while still connected to my Atari ST as per my post above.
It is being supplied by a 5V regulated plug in SMPSU. The GBS-8200 V4.0 board is drawing 547mA. The SMPSU I am using is rated at 2.5A.
So I would say that if you use a regulated 5V 1A PSU you should be okay.
I don't think it is a good idea to use the 5V supply in a Beeb to power it though.

The polarity is centre positive as per this picture:
Positive Polarity 300.JPG
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Later today, or tomorrow I will try it with a Beeb (model B) and a Master 128.

Mark K.
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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:48 pm

Tonight I connected my GBS-8200 V4.0 board to a Master 128.
It works okay :D
Two things to note. First there is some ghosting due to the temporary lash-up test set-up that I used. Two, I used a Sharp Aquos LC-19D1E-BK LCD TV switched to its PC VGA/SVGA etc mode rather than a monitor.
Oh and the camera did not want to play nice when taking pictures with a lot of black (and I could not be bothered to try the manual mode camera settings).
On the GBS-8200 V4.0 board I adjusted the picture size and positions using the menu controls, then pressed the Auto set-up button. After taking the first four 'photos I adjusted the RGB level preset (adjustable) resistors to try to obtain less ghosting.

I connected up like this:

Code: Select all

  Master      signal      wire colour    GBS-8200 V4.0 board
6 pin DIN                                  P11 connector
    1 ------red video------red wire--------------"R"
    2 ------green video----green wire------------"G"
    3 ------blue video-----blue wire-------------"B"
    4 ------CSync--[330R]--grey wire-------------"S"
    5 ------Ground---------black wire------------"GND"

Note CSync connected via a 330 ohm resister.

Anyway, here are some pictures...
IMG_1383.JPG
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IMG_1384.JPG
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IMG_1385.JPG
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IMG_1386.JPG
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IMG_1387.JPG
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Hopefully I can find time to do a bit more on Monday or more likely on Tuesday. Plan is to build a cable and to test with a Beeb B and a Viewsonic monitor :mrgreen:

Mark K.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby nOmArch » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:43 am

That looks pretty good!
Alex

Back up to 1 Beeb again. \o/

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:32 pm

Test results with a BBC B (issue 7 board) and a Viewsonic monitor via a GBS-8200 V4.0 board.
Yay - It works okay :D

The GBS-8200 V4.0 board was left with the same adjustments as in my last post.
I think that with the adjustment levels set at mid-value, this loads and terminates the signal lines, combined with a proper cable connection, the ghosting is eliminated.

I connected up like this:

Code: Select all

  BBC B       signal          GBS-8200 V4.0 board
6 pin DIN                     P10 (VGA) connector
    1 ------red video------------------1
    2 ------green video----------------2
    3 ------blue video-----------------3
    4 ------CSync----------------------13
    5 ------Ground---------------------5,6,7,8

Note no resisters were used.

And of course, here are the pictures...
BBC B Mode 7.JPG
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BBC B Mode 7 close up.JPG
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BBC B Mode 2.JPG
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BBC B Mode 0.JPG
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BBC B Mode 0 close up.JPG
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BBC B red background.JPG
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And now for the bad news (part one) :(
You may notice that in the pictures that have a black background, you can see random white dots. This is noise produced by the GBS-8200 converter board and is annoying. It is less noticeable when used with an Atari ST as most of the time a light colour picture is displayed.
When / if anyone else connects up their converter boards, have a good look and report back if you also get these annoying white dots (and if you don't).
While writing this, the thought occurred to me that it may be the SMPSU that I am using. Another thing to investigate...
Bad news part two :evil:
I used a cut-off lead from an old VGA monitor, stripped the wire ends, worked out which wire went to which pin, etc. Then soldered a 6 pin DIN plug to it. Connected it all up. Wonderful, it works 8) .
Then I brushed against the lead and the picture lost some of the colours - what the... :shock: :?
Well, it appears that one of the cores used for one of the colour channels is defective :evil: Could be why the monitor was dumped in the faulty pile...
Bad news part three :twisted:
The Beeb I was using died while doing the testing (I was killing three birds with one stone, testing the Beeb, the cable and the converter, but not really expecting to kill anything :shock: ). Another item added to my repair list...

Have fun...
Mark K.
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:37 pm

Good to see progress - It maybe that they've improved things with the V4.0 of the board, I've got one of those on the way, and will compare it to the V3.0 one I have here when it arrives.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:32 am

Keep an eye on Ebay. I picked up the Extron DVS-204 for 50 quid :) Shipping to the UK shouldnt be too bad as the 204 is not very heavy.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby sweh » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:30 am

videofx wrote:Keep an eye on Ebay. I picked up the Extron DVS-204 for 50 quid :) Shipping to the UK shouldnt be too bad as the 204 is not very heavy.

Was I bidding against you? :-(
Rgds
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby elecdrum » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:36 am

You may notice that in the pictures that have a black background, you can see random white dots. This is noise produced by the GBS-8200 converter board and is annoying. It is less noticeable when used with an Atari ST as most of the time a light colour picture is displayed.
This is how mine was on arrival but the white dots are no longer in evidence after a custom setup.
I'll see if i can get some pictures of current settings.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:19 pm

Using a Sharp Aquos LC-19D1E-BK LCD TV with an Electron via a RGB SCART lead.
I wrote:I do know that the BBC B's the BBC Master 128's and the Electrons all have slightly different video outputs. I use a Sharp Aquos LC-19D1E-BK LCD TV with some of my Masters (and get a good steady picture via the SCART RGB input) but it is not keen on the BBC B's and the Electrons. You do get a picture some of the time, then a black screen, then a picture, then a black screen... Another investigation on my "to do" list.
I have now discovered how to "fix" the incompatibility with my Sharp Aquos LC-19D1E-BK LCD TV and my BBC B's and Electrons :D
On the Sharp TV, in the Option Menu, on the Colour System set-up, select PAL instead of Auto. This instantly fixed the problem described above when I was testing with an Electron earlier 8)

Test results with an Electron and a Viewsonic monitor via a GBS-8200 V4.0 board.
This set-up works okay as well :D
Same settings on the GBS-8200 board as in my last post. However, I'm sure some further adjustments would improve the picture.

This was a short test and I used a linear power supply.
I wrote:You may notice that in the pictures that have a black background, you can see random white dots. This is noise produced by the GBS-8200 converter board and is annoying.
<snip>
I wrote:While writing this, the thought occurred to me that it may be the SMPSU that I am using. Another thing to investigate...
As you can see, the random white dots are still present :(

Here's the pictures...
Electron on Viewsonic via GBS-8200.JPG
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Electron on Viewsonic via GBS-8200 - close-up.JPG
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Electron on Viewsonic via GBS-8200 colour.JPG
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And for comparison, on my Sharp Aquos LC-19D1E-BK LCD TV (via RGB SCART)
Electron on Sharp Aquos 1.JPG
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Electron on Sharp Aquos 2.JPG
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Hope this is useful :mrgreen:

Mark K. :lol:
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby elecdrum » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:02 am

Just to repeat I don't have any white dots on screen but they where certainly there on arrival.
Here is my geometry settings :

H Pos: 63
V Pos: 22
H Size: 63
V Size: 62
Clamp ST: 84
Clamp SP: 12

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby danielj » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 pm

GBS-8200 (V4.0) turned up today. Quick beeb-vga cable as per Mark's pin-out above. Nearly perfect picture but a tiny amount of ghosting (blame my shoddy cable making for that one). No dots at all. I'll pop some pics up later.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby danielj » Sat May 19, 2012 1:32 pm

Bit more on this. I suddenly got dots where there were none before, however the dots go away when you adjust the horizontal/vertical size to fill most of the screen. Mark, can you confirm whether this is the case? Additionally I might need to nudge you about my cable, I can't seem to get it completely ghost-free :( (but it's still a darn sight better than the composite solutions I've had up until now).

d.

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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Mon May 21, 2012 10:19 am

danielj wrote:Bit more on this. I suddenly got dots where there were none before, however the dots go away when you adjust the horizontal/vertical size to fill most of the screen. Mark, can you confirm whether this is the case? Additionally I might need to nudge you about my cable, I can't seem to get it completely ghost-free :( (but it's still a darn sight better than the composite solutions I've had up until now).

d.

Ahh, have not tried changing the size since I first set it up.
Will have a play later...

Mark
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evert67
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby evert67 » Thu May 31, 2012 12:49 pm

I bought a VGA->Scart cable from eBay and to my big surprise it works! I use a Philips LCD TV.

The only thing is that the display is often shifted to the left or the right (so that part of the picture is not shown) or that it actually moves slowly from the left to the right or the other way around. This can sometimes be alleviated (but not always) by selecting HDMI input on the TV and then back to Scart again.

Anyone know why this is happening or what I can do about it?

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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:11 am

evert67 wrote:The only thing is that the display is often shifted to the left or the right (so that part of the picture is not shown) or that it actually moves slowly from the left to the right or the other way around. This can sometimes be alleviated (but not always) by selecting HDMI input on the TV and then back to Scart again.
Strange, should not happen as long as the connections are good and the TV can display a PAL standard (UK) picture.
The horizontal position and lock is a function of the TV circuits correctly processing the line sync signal (part of the composite sync signal).
Have you tried any other variations, e.g. do you have another TV or Beeb? What happens when using either the UHF TV or the BNC video outputs?

Mark
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evert67
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby evert67 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:07 am

I have one other BBC and it happens with that one too. (I use the same cable.)

I do not have another TV to test it with. I tried UHF but couldn't get that to work.

In the discussion above I read things about some TV's being more suitable than others. Unfortunately I am not much into tv signal formats, so I couldn't follow the technical difficulties. But could this have something to do with it?

I also noticed my TV has a VGA socket (like a monitor). Could I use this perhaps with another converter/cable? From the discussion above I think I can infer that the Beeb RGB, Scart and VGA signals are somewhat similar, although the sockets and plugs are different. Are they? And could this be used to some help?

Or should I perhaps open a new topic for a newbie, since some of these questions have undoubtedly been answered before, I might just not understand it.

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1024MAK
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby 1024MAK » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:51 pm

evert67 wrote:I have one other BBC and it happens with that one too. (I use the same cable.)
It sounds like your TV is picky. The video output from home computers like the Beeb does not fully meet the TV standard. Most TV's (and 15KHz type monitors) are happy with with these signals, but alas not all.
evert67 wrote:I do not have another TV to test it with. I tried UHF but couldn't get that to work.
That's a shame as this would have either proved it or given us more information to help work out the cause of the problem :(
evert67 wrote:In the discussion above I read things about some TV's being more suitable than others. Unfortunately I am not much into tv signal formats, so I couldn't follow the technical difficulties. But could this have something to do with it?
Yes... BTW where in the world do you live?
evert67 wrote:I also noticed my TV has a VGA socket (like a monitor). Could I use this perhaps with another converter/cable? From the discussion above I think I can infer that the Beeb RGB, Scart and VGA signals are somewhat similar, although the sockets and plugs are different. Are they? And could this be used to some help?
Most TV's (and some 15KHz monitors) have a SCART connection that is RGB analog capable. This can accept the video output from the Beeb as long as some resistors are included in the DIN to SCART lead (normally housed in the SCART connector) to adjust the signal level.
As to VGA, most displays (monitors and TV's) only accept VGA standard frequencies at their VGA connectors. So to connect a Beeb you need a converter (like the GBS-8200 V4.0 board talked about above).

Mark K.
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

evert67
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby evert67 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:27 pm

Thanks, Mak. I live in The Netherlands. We have the same PAL system as the UK.

Is the conclusion that I should try another TV/

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby semtex » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:39 am

I'm bringing my original 30 year old BBC Model B back to life. But as I live in Canada it is difficult to get PAL equipment cheap... and I didn't want to clutter my desk with another monitor when I have a great 24" Benq monitor.

So I bought a GBS-8200 scan converter (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CGA-EGA-RGB-VGA-GAME-Video-Converter-Board-1-VGA-Output-Game-Convert-GBS8200-/300683015642?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item46021ab5da)to convert the RGB output to VGA. It only cost $35 so I wasn't expecting too much... but wow! I will let the photos below speak for themselves. There is slight ghosting in MODE 0... but that would be me being picky.

The cool thing is that the board is small... so I attached it under the lid of my Beeb!

The GBS-8200 is v4 and I don't have any of the 'white dots' reported by others. Additionally I just used the RGBS cable that came with it and soldered a 6 pin DIN onto the other end. I did *not* use any resistors.

GBS-8200----BBC RGB
Red--------------pin 1
Green------------pin 2
Blue-------------pin 3
Grey-------------pin 4
Black------------pin 5
Yellow-----------Not used

Power comes from a 5V 2A PSU that I bought for $12 in my local electronics store.

I'm very pleased with the outcome. It means my Beeb can now stay permanently on my desk with my PC keyboard on top of it and it's simple to switch between VGA and DVI on my monitor.

If anyone else uses this with a widescreen monitor these are the options I set on the GBS-8200...

Display: 1024 x 768
H Position: 42
V Position: 30
H Size: 50
V Size: 60
Clamp st: 90
Clamp sp: 95


Here's the GBS-8200 attached to the underside of the lid. The cable was supplied. I wrapped it in heat shrink and soldered a 6 pin DIN on the other end for the Beeb.

Image

From the back you can see the VGA connector and power connector.

Image

This is a MODE 4 image...

Image

The program that created it came from the book "Practical Programs for the BBC Micro" by David Johnson-Davies. The listing below is MODE 4 then MODE 7.

Image

Image

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Elminster
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby Elminster » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:24 pm

I now have a GBS-8200 wired as above. I.e. header to rgb 6pin din. I also have to white dots and/or occasionally jumping every few seconds.

Problems is my OSD Menus are in Chinese, anyone know the menu option to change to English? Had a quick look on web but not found the answer yet.

Thanks


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