LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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jms2
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LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jms2 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:24 pm

Does anyone on here have any recommendations for what LCD TVs work well with BBC micros? I would imagine a SCART input is what's needed.

Alternatively, is it possible to use a PC monitor? I noticed on this thread that danielj is using a Dell monitor - how would that work? SCART to VGA lead?

What I'm considering is having a small flat screen that can be shared between a beeb and an old PC.

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danielj
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 pm

Hello - I have a few bits and bobs going on with that monitor. For the electron I completed the link that turns the composite into colour composite and use one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-Composite-S ... 2024wt_764
Although I think I paid about £15 for it. Display is adequate, but if you concentrate on it, the colour boundaries can be a bit annoying.

That's only because the RGB from the electron seems to be a bit different from the RGB out of my master and I can't be bothered to mess around with the values of resistor in the cable. From my master I use an RGB-SCART cable but push it through a scart-RGB converter (which I built according to this:
http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/rgb2svid/
and back into the s-video-vga box).

Hope that helps-ish. PM if you want any details.

d.

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jms2
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jms2 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:38 pm

Thanks - you've lost me a bit regarding the Master setup but I can see what you've done with the Electron.

I've seen SCART to VGA convertor cables on Ebay for similar money and I can imagine they might be handy, especially if the Scart plug was replaced with a BBC compatible DIN plug.

Anyway, I've established what I wanted to know - which is that a TV is probably the simplest option. Thanks.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby paulv » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:39 pm

I've seen an Amiga.org thread that covers a DELL TV/Monitor that an Amiga can use without a scan doubler/flicker fixer can work with using the monitors VGA connector.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58860&highlight=dell+15khz

I'd imagine that it'd work with the Beeb straight off on the SCART socket so you could leave a PC connected to the VGA connector and use the TV to switch between sources.

As for standard TV types, I've hooked up my Beebs to a SONY Bravia 40" TV before and it's been superb so I'd imagine that most if not all SONY kit should work.

Paul

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retroclinic
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:06 pm

Converting to composite or S-Video then scan converting to VGA does work, as several poeple use it here, but it doesn't give the best picture quality that you can get. For that, you'll either need an LCD TV that has a SCART socket that likes the BBC output, or a "proper" scan converter, like an Extron DVS204*. The cheapie eBay scan converters have been tested on the beeb and they range from giving nothing at all, to an "acceptable" picture, but one that is still blurry compared to the one the Extron gives.

Mark.

*I've now had a chance to test the 204s replacement, the DVS304, and it's not as good for the Beeb - simply because it's "too" accurate in converting the interlace, the picture it produces in the interlaced mode is annoying as the flicker doesn't reproduce well on an LCD, so the best Extron option is the DVS204 with FPGA FW 1.06 or above, which smooths out the interlace.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby poink » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:26 pm

I've been pretty pleased with my LG 42LH4000 LCD TV including for the BBC[1]. At 42" it's a little big to be practical for use with a Beeb - although it's great for demoing things - so I'm considering getting a smaller one (eg., a 22" for about £140).

[1] Which I bought for home theatre use. My decision was in not small part based on the RS232 control :D

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jms2 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:36 pm

What I'm considering is a really small TV - eg 15", similar in size to a Cub but much smaller and much, much lighter.

I've realised that none of my "period" monitors are likely to last forever, they take up a lot of space and weigh so much that the shelf they are on is gradually sagging!

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby poink » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:32 pm

Obviously, there's the (outrageously expensive) arcade LCDs. I think others here have more experience with affordable LCD monitors that would work. Checking what people use with Amigas and STs might help.

The smallest LCD TV I can find easily is 19"[1] (but I don't think that a 4:3 image on a 19" widescreen LCD and a 14-15" CRT are that different in size.) I believe a number of hi-fi/home entertainment shops allow you to either home trial equipment or have understanding returns policies, alternatively, the distance selling regulations seem like they'd cover this.

[1] The reason I'm personally looking at 22" is that it's where 1080p; and therefore screens also more usable as a general computer display; begin.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby george.h » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:49 am

If you can find one on fleabay, get hold of a Samsung SyncMaster 510MP TV/Monitor (15", or the 17" version the 710MP). Just aquired my second off there for <£20 including shipping. It's an analogue tuner only so they can be cheap, have a VGA input (1024x768) AND a Scart socket that takes the Beebs TTL RGB output just fine with most Beeb>Scart leads.

George
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jonb » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:28 pm

Gosh, you guys are all assuming the OP is rich...([edit] : apart from george.h)

Try this : Alba 16" widescreen Freeview telly from Argos, cost £89 I think, plus RGB cable from Retro Computer Shack (eBay, £15). Rock solid picture quality. Sharp as a pin. No colour bleeding, monitor-like quality. I think it supports 720p HD, and it has HDMI and PC monitor inputs.

The only problem is that the panel loses contrast if you are viewing at the wrong angle (vertical) but come on, it is only £89...

Or get one off eBay : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200660177566

When I posted this it was £18. LOLPRICE it ain't...

To go with it, I bought a VESA monitor support from a Dell monitor for another £18 and this allows me to get the right viewing angle. The plastic stand it came with isn't adjustable.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby andyt31 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:48 pm

I use a LG Flatron Wide M208WA LCD monitor as my display. It has VGA, DVI, Component, SCART, S-Video, Composite and RF inputs so any machine i’ve got can run off this screen. SCART in RGB mode is fantastic.

Example of this screen and a beeb here : http://flic.kr/p/5rzNhD
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jms2
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jms2 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:40 pm

Some great tips there, thanks very much!

jonb is absolutely right, I'm looking for a cheap solution... its not so much an absolute shortage of money, just a reluctance to spend tons of cash of old computers. Particularly from the wife's point of view!

I didn't want to buy something at random from Ebay so knowing some good model numbers to search for is very handy indeed.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby jms2 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:57 pm

Just to close down this thread - in the end I got a Samsung SyncMaster 510MP as recommended. It works really well. Thanks for all the suggestions.

As a result, I now have a mostly-working CUB to give away and I'll post that on the For Sale pages.

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:49 am

Since I live in the US I can't find an LCD that has a SCART RGB connector.

I did find this device that converts the Beeb RGB to SVGA/XGA/WXGA output. Since these are cheap and easy to find.

Here is the link. I hope this helps!

http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/indiv ... UPSCALEBBC

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george.h
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby george.h » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:21 pm

Glad to be of help! :wink:

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:04 pm

videofx wrote:Since I live in the US I can't find an LCD that has a SCART RGB connector.

I did find this device that converts the Beeb RGB to SVGA/XGA/WXGA output. Since these are cheap and easy to find.

Here is the link. I hope this helps!

http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/indiv ... UPSCALEBBC


If you're in the US, you should be able to find an abundance of Extron DVS204 scalers to use - the one from CJE is available cheaper on eBay, and the picture quality is okay, but not as good or sharp as the Extron. Other ppl on here have the DVS204, and can attest to the quality.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200693381694

Would be spot on for you - you'd need to build a Beeb to RGB cable, which I can talk you through, or I can make one up for you.

Mark.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:33 pm

Mark,

How does the Extron DVS204 handle the RGP PAL signal? The one you gave me the link to on Ebay is probably a US scaler and I don't know if it handles RGB PAL conversion.

My Beeb has an Svideo connector and I can output NTSC. I was told that if I use the NTC output then I will lose some scan lines.

Just trying to get the best picture I can without spending more than I spent on my Master 128 :)

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:42 pm

Mark,

I found the answer to the PAL issue:

Quad standard video decoding — The DVS 204 uses a digital, four-line adaptive comb filter to decode NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, and SECAM for integration in systems worldwide.

How much for you to build and ship me a cable?

Cheers!

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Mark,

One more question. On the DVS 204 you use the RGB DIN out of the Beeb and what connector is on the other end to connnect to the DVS 204? I dont see RGB in only Component, composite, and Svideo. Am I missing something? :)

Cheers!

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:12 pm

Hi.

First off, RGB is not PAL, NTSC, JEDI, or any other mix...it's just simple Red, Green and Blue, with a sync signal - it's the frequency that you need to know, and for the (UK) beeb, that's 15Khz horizontal and 50Hz vertical. The Beeb connects via the 6 pin DIN to the 15 pin VGA in on the DVS 204, and then scales it to the VGA output to whatever your monitor wants, 1024x768, 1280x1024 etc.

The Extron devices are worldwide compatible, as you've found out it does PAL/NTSC/etc too, as well as the PSU voltages. Trust me, (as long as it's working properly) it will work fine 8) Also works great for consoles etc that use component, as well as video stuff that has composite or S-Video.

Cable will be £10, shipping to USA about a fiver, but I'd need to double check that. You could connect it via the S-Video of your beeb for starters, although for best quality you'll need to go RGB.

Mark.
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videofx
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Mark,

Cheers!

How fast can you make and ship me the cable?

Then let me know total and I assume PayPal?

Bill

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retroclinic
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:18 pm

Hi.

PM Sent.

Mark.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:35 pm

Got your PM and replied but its still in the outbox. What do I need to do to get it sent?

Bill

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby martinw » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:37 pm

It should change when he reads it :wink:

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:44 pm

Mark,

I sent an email to you retroclinic email.

Cheers!

Bill

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Mark,

I found this in the manual and it explains the RGB connection:

Equipment following the SCART interconnection standard
may be connected to the RGBcvS input cabling configuration.

Bill

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retroclinic
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Recevied, thanks - and I've sent an invoice for the cable.

That input can accept RGBHV or RGBS (what they call RGBcvS), and it's the latter that the Beeb will use. The cable comes with resistors fitted to the 15HD plug end, to step the voltage down from the Beebs 5v TTL out to 1v p-p levels.

Regards, Mark.
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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:13 pm

Payment has been made!

Let me know when it ships!

Cheers!

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby videofx » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:55 pm

Picked up the Extron DVs204 for 60 quid!

Thanks!

Now I just need the cable :)

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Re: LCD TVs and monitors for use with BBCs

Postby retroclinic » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:40 pm

Nice one. Cable is on it's way.

Regards, Mark.
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