BeebSID

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 6613
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: BeebSID

Postby hoglet » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:14 pm

Hi all,

Here's a conversion of BeebSID13 for the Atom:
ATMSID13.zip
(42.25 KiB) Downloaded 37 times

AtomSid13.png

Dave

User avatar
oss003
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Postby oss003 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:58 pm

Wow ....... you're fast Dave =D> =D>

Greetings
Kees

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 6613
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: BeebSID

Postby hoglet » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:21 pm

The conversion process is now 100% automatic :lol:

Dave

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:14 am

Hi Folks,

Well, I'm playing with my BeebSid.....couple questions as I think I'm having brain cramps all over the place here.

1/ I've run a couple of the test programs.....is there any way the BeebSid runs through the speaker?....do I have to disconnect it from the motherboard and plug it into the audio output pins to get a sound from it?
2/ Pics of the results of the programs below....one said the SID is present....but I guess I'm not hearing anything because the speaker isn't hooked up...soooo.....I plugged an external speaker into the output audio plug....is there enough to drive a speaker or do I need a pre-amp to do this....?
3/ When I try to run one of the wonderful SIDMusic Disks, I get the Channel error running down my screen like a bad 2 line program.....reasons why that happens?
4/ I thought I saw a diagram of how the terminating resistors worked on the BeebSID. I've gone blind trying to find it in the thread.....does anyone have a methodology for creating the terminating block or remember where it is in the thread....I'm starting to go blind trying to find it.....

Thanks for any help you can give.....

Pics below....

Ed......:-)

DSCF1043.JPG
This refers to item 2 - SID shows as present.....

DSCF1044.JPG
This is the other SIDtest program running...this one tests that all sounds are available in all channels....no sound of course but seems to run through

DSCF1045.JPG
This is item 3 - runaway Channel error

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...

Re: BeebSID

Postby 1024MAK » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:35 am

KarateEd wrote:1/ I've run a couple of the test programs.....is there any way the BeebSid runs through the speaker?....do I have to disconnect it from the motherboard and plug it into the audio output pins to get a sound from it?
Depending on which PCB version you have, there should be a link (jumper shunt) to route the sound to the Beeb internal speaker. This link is labelled "audio to bus".
KarateEd wrote:2/ Pics of the results of the programs below....one said the SID is present....but I guess I'm not hearing anything because the speaker isn't hooked up...soooo.....I plugged an external speaker into the output audio plug....is there enough to drive a speaker or do I need a pre-amp to do this....?
This is best described as a line level output. It cannot drive a speaker directly. Use a suitable amplifier or use a set of "PC speakers" which include an inbuilt amplifier.
KarateEd wrote:3/ When I try to run one of the wonderful SIDMusic Disks, I get the Channel error running down my screen like a bad 2 line program.....reasons why that happens?
Err, somewhere in the thread is the answer, I forget now :oops:
KarateEd wrote:4/ I thought I saw a diagram of how the terminating resistors worked on the BeebSID. I've gone blind trying to find it in the thread.....does anyone have a methodology for creating the terminating block or remember where it is in the thread....I'm starting to go blind trying to find it.....
I run mine without any terminating resistors. as long as you don't use a long cable, it should be fine :wink:

Useful links:
http://www.pitfalljones.com/bbc-sidquiz ... ograms.htm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2530&start=390#p23445 (keep reading...)

I'll post a picture of the "audio to bus" link (jumper shunt) later. First I need some sleep...

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BeebSID

Postby danielj » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:40 am

The SID test program just writes to memory locations across the 1MHz bus, it doesn't check for anything being present IIRC (I haven't looked at the listing for a while but that's my memory of it). I don't think it running can be taken as evidence of anything...

d.

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:07 am

Hi Folks,

Ok...so after testing the BeebSID using the internal speaker per MarkMak, no sound at all out of the speaker. I know it works so I may be doing something wrong in software?

Also, you mentioned length of 1Mhz bus cable....about 23 inches. Should that be ok or do you think I need to shorten it?

I'm seeing info about *DISK and *CARD in the thread but not sure how I should apply that...*CARD still works fine so not sure why I'm getting channel on the screen.....memory conflict of some kind or.....bad SID possibly?

Anyway none of the test programs make sounds in the speaker after trying to run the tests.... :-(

I'm sure there's a simple explanation that I've overlooked.

If anyone has some other ideas on this, I would love to hear them.

Thanks very much

Ed......:-)

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4555
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity

Re: BeebSID

Postby MartinB » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:55 pm

Hi Ed - I guess this is as good a time as any for the BeebSID designer to throw in his two-penneth.... :wink:

You can do a simple non-audio check that a BeebSID device is present and functioning correctly in terms of a viable and correctly addressed SID chip with the following short program :

Code: Select all

10 ?&FC2E=1
20 ?&FC32=&20
30 REPEAT
40  P.?&FC3B
50 UNTIL FALSE

You will see numbers scrolling rapidly up the screen and these should be nominally counting from 0 to 255 decimal (modulo 255) in steps of approximately 5. If you do see this, you have proven the integrity of the 1MHz bus connection, the BeebSID address decoding and the basic viability of the SID chip.

If you see a fixed value then something is broken.... [-(

Hope this helps 8)

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:28 pm

Hi Sir Martin,

Ah, a SIDtest that tells all regardless of sound availability.

I will certainly do this and......let you know of the results.

The good thing is I have a couple SIDs to be able to check this with if I don't get any good result with the current one.

Thanks very much,

Ed......:-)

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...

Re: BeebSID

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:56 am

Photo:
BeebSID CameraAwesomePhoto.jpg

As you can see, my board does not have the "proper" audio socket fitted. I use a "PC" like audio cable that fits the 2 pin header "Audio out". This then goes to a set of "PC" speakers that have an internal amplifier. The pin at the top of the photo is the signal pin and the lower pin is the 0V (GND) pin.

Just below and to the left, above the two blue 1MHz bus connectors, is the "Audio to bus" header. To route the BeebSID audio output to the Beeb's internal speaker, put a jumper shunt on this 2 pin header. There are no software/firmware settings associated with this.

The ribbon cable that I'm using is about 45cm long.

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:55 am

Hi Mark(Mak),

Thanks very much.....the explanation is very good and easy to understand.

I will run the program sent by Martin, set it up to run internally (actually) I think it is and I heard some 'buzzing', not very loud but noticeable.

If I get no good result, I will change the BeebSID with another I have and see if anything changes.

The length of cable I'm using is not much longer than the one you have....maybe about 6 inches or 15 cm.

Thanks for the help folks, I will let you know the results.

Ed......:-)

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:47 am

Hi Folks,

Results time....

With the first SID in I got a vertical string of 0s (zeros). I changed SIDs with no different results. I then unplugged the BeebSID from the 1Mhz cable and ran the program again and got a vertical string of 255s.

Below are a couple pictures, showing the SID setup and the cable. Would someone kindly check the red stripe just to let me know I built the cable correctly...I think it's just a 1-1 cable, not a huge deal (I don't think).....

The red LED stays on solid and never flickers....not sure if that's normal.

If everything else looks ok then I'm not sure what's wrong.

Thanks again everyone....I'm learning something new each day.....

Ed......:-)

DSCF1039.JPG
The BeebSID and it's configuration....done by Phill so it's got to be right.....

DSCF1041.JPG
The other side of the connector......

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BeebSID

Postby danielj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:48 am

Hmm. Which SID model are you using and what voltages do you have the board set to?

d.

User avatar
oss003
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Postby oss003 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:56 am

Hi Ed,

Is your main power supply +12V?
Also the 6581 needs +12V and not +9V according to the jumper.

Hopefully the SID is not broken ..... :?

Greetings
Kees

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 am

Hi Folks,

We're getting closer to sweet retro music....from the SID.....

You were right, I took a look at the jumper....it was indeed on the wrong setting....changed it and.......nothing happened. My main power supply for the BeebSID is 12V, 1.2A...

BeebSID Model is MK2.3, it's on the picture I posted when you enlarge it....

I rebooted (the universal solve for all computer issues), still nothing.....disconnected the ribbon cable at the computer end, reconnected....very solidly......and the test programs worked, including FILTEST which checks all channels, 1-4. When I ran the peeks and pokes from Sir Martin, all the numbers came down the screen sequentially, so we have hope.

The reason I came to the conclusion this may not have fitted correctly was when I ran the SIDTEST program, it told me no SID for you, or something to that effect....quite funny really, like Seinfeld, no soup, 1 year.

When I tried to run one of the SIDdisks, the menu would pop up but when I tried to play a song, I got the <CHANNEL> making it's merry way down my screen.

I think all the hardware components are working, just the final problem, perhaps to do with location of where the files end up in memory?...I'm running an MMC storage system. That system works even after trying to load the SIDplayer....

One other thing....when I just try to load SIDplayer, using *SIDplayer.....the program stops with a convoluted error message....but it's mixed up with the menu screen so it's really hard to tell what's error msg and what's the screen...

Anyway, it's all I can think about at this point.....

Thanks for all your help so far in helping me get my retro sounds happening.

Ed......:-)

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BeebSID

Postby danielj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:28 am

Which one of the SID discs? If it's one of the one's that's not PJs, there are a couple that only run on a Master!

Edit: Sounds like it's the MMC system playing silly buggers somewhere...

d.

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:24 pm

Hi Daniel,

I've tried several of PJs SIDdisks, all have the same result except some go directly to the <CHANNEL> phenomenum and some wait for a keypress. I think that has to do with whether it's autoplay or just play.

I was thinking the MMC too, just wondering if this has been seen before and if so, what the fix might be.

Also, I'm running a ROM/RAM card....wondering if that can have anything to do with it?

Ed......:-)

User avatar
oss003
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Postby oss003 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:40 pm

Hi Ed,

does your error looks like this:
error.PNG

The disc only works in B-em v2.1a when selecting model:

- Model B w8271
- Model B w8271+SWRAM

With all other model B selections, the error is generated by a JMP 0100 instruction.

Greetings
Kees

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:40 pm

Hi Kees,

Yup, my error looks exactly like that....Model B with MMC DFS...

Ed......:-)

User avatar
oss003
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Postby oss003 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:46 pm

Hi Ed,

I think we have to ask the guys who know something about the DFS's. It looks to me that 1770 DFS and MMC DFS are generating this error and 8271 DFS is working ok.

Greetings
Kees

User avatar
oss003
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:57 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Postby oss003 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:27 pm

Hi Ed,

can you try typing CALL &6800 after getting the CHANEL error?
See what happens?

Greetings
Kees

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4555
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity

Re: BeebSID

Postby MartinB » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:35 pm

I think this may be an issue with PAGE being lowered to $1100 by PJ's discs - something similar came up along the line I think :-k

Ed - can you try something please....

Instead of <Shift><Break> booting the discs, type *TYPE !BOOT <Return> and then manually type the text you see in response but as a command. For example, if you see *SIDPLAY after the *TYPE command, at the command prompt type *SIDPLAY <Return> and see what you get.

Might be unrelated to your issue but hey, it's something to try.... :wink:

Ta.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BeebSID

Postby danielj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:00 pm

I wonder if the TurboMMC DFS bastardisation is using that workspace then... Sounds distinctly likely...

d.

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:01 pm

Hi Guys,

Thanks again for helping....

ok, tried both suggestions.....and got the same screen print below for both tests.

I had actually tried running the *SIDPLAY earlier the way you suggested Martin. I think somehow the program is getting corrupted by the system?, not sure....

Anyway, not yet solved but I love your guys tenacity.......and much needed help.

Ed......:-)

DSCF1039.JPG
Same error on both tests.....yet when I play God Save the Queen it works just fine.....and all channels show up on the test I was getting only 0 on before

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:03 pm

danielj wrote:I wonder if the TurboMMC DFS bastardisation is using that workspace then... Sounds distinctly likely...

d.


I was wondering that too....but wouldn't it get clobbered by SIDPLAY when it ran?

Oh, yeah, it would but then it wouldn't be able bring in the file I was trying to play....ok, starting to get a picture....oh dear, could be a difficult fix being limited in memory...*CARD commands still work but the MC play file doesn't probably have enough room is my guess.....

Ed......:-)

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4555
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity

Re: BeebSID

Postby MartinB » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:21 pm

Although we haven't identified a workround, carrying out the test as I suggested has confirmed my suspicion that the 'Channel' error is occurring because the FS workspace at $1100 is being corrupted. You will have noticed that although the player still crashes, the error has changed to 'Bad command' as a consequence of your not using the !BOOT *EXEC facility invoked by a <Shift><Break>. *EXEC opens an IO file and is allocated a channel by DFS (and presumably the MMC FS - not my bag) and this channel will have workspace immediately after $1100. I suspect that the channel is not being closed before the re-location routines overwrite $1100 upwards resulting in a 'Channel' error. When you simply do a *SIDPLAY, it looks as if a different workspace dependency clash occurs resulting (probably) in a card specific command not being recognised, hence the 'Bad command' error.

I realise the above is all just spoffing with no real answers but I think for certain you have a straightforward configuration compatibility issue with your machine rather than any sinister BeebSID fault. I don't have any solid-state FS devices, just real disc drives and UPURS, so I can't easily investigate any further I'm afraid.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BeebSID

Postby danielj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:36 pm

MartinB wrote:just real disc drives and UPURS


:lol:

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:40 pm

Hi Martin,

I truly appreciate the explanation....it's a little scary, I kind of understood it.....

I've tested the BeebSID with 4x4P standalone file and it works magnificently....I will try some other standalone files to see how they work but I'll say there is absolutely nothing wrong with the BeebSID, just the way MMC handles memory, most likely as you said....

Your explanation actually gives me some other things I can look at/try and we'll see what happens.

Thanks very much for this explanation, as I said, I'm learning every day....and I need to....64 in 3 months so little time to stop learning.....

If anyone knows the MMC disk system and how it works and can help out I would certainly appreciate it....maybe someone out there is running the SIDPLAY program on an MMC?

Thanks all,

Ed......:-)

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4555
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity

Re: BeebSID

Postby MartinB » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:46 pm

No worries Ed 8)

Daniel wrote:
MartinB wrote:just real disc drives and UPURS

:lol:

Oh, I didn't realise I'd mentioned that..... O:) :- :wink:

User avatar
KarateEd
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada

Re: BeebSID

Postby KarateEd » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:08 am

Well Folks,

I've tried a few standalone SID songs now and they work magnificently.

Now to solve the issue of SIDdisks not quite working....

Ed......:-)


Return to “hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], lcww1 and 13 guests