Acorn Music 5000

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jonb
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Acorn Music 5000

Postby jonb » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:13 pm

Hello

You may have seen this post in the "Today I received..." thread: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5594&start=3930#p172070 where I talk about the Music 5000 that just arrived. It's just the unit, no manuals or software.

I would like to ask what I need to get hold of to try the thing out. I had a quick search about and it seems there are ROMs and some sort of music editing package? As I do not have the 4000 keyboard (I can't play anyway) I am looking for stuff that runs on the Model B and plays music and / or allows creation. Is there an alternative to the 4000 that would allow the use of a different keyboard? I have a Midi keyboard lying around..

Regards
JonB

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DutchAcorn
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby DutchAcorn » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:59 pm

Have you seen Paul's retro-kit site?
Paul

RobC
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby RobC » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:28 pm

I'm not sure that you can use a MIDI keyboard for input even if you have a Music 2000/MIDI interface.

You will need an amplifier and some speakers.

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lazarusr
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby lazarusr » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:02 pm

Mark Haysman (Retroclinic) sells a package that includes the manual, the disc and the ROM. He also sells the programmer's reference guide. You should get a 5pin DIN to 3.5mm stereo lead (such as this http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-35mm-j ... -15m-a31xf) - then you can plug it in to any regular HiFi or powered speakers. If you search around there are quite a few packages of tunes that you can download.

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simoni
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby simoni » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:57 am

I'm actually working on a project at the moment that allows the use of a standard MIDI keyboard in place of the M4000. Basically it is a microcontroller based board that accepts MIDI IN via a 5 pin DIN and then uses a MT8808 crosspoint switch IC to emulate the M4000 towards the BBC's userport (The M4000 is basically a 8x8 scanned matrix keyboard).

I have the basic circuit on the breadboard and the MIDI state-machine is working. It's just the crosspoint IC interfacing left really. If it works (and like any prototype it may not!) I'll publish all the details.

To use the M5000 you will need a copy of the AMPLE ROM (the patched version without the copy protection) and the system discs. For the music there are several sources available.

To make life easier for you I've zipped up my M5000 directory that contains the ROM, documentation, system discs and a collection of disc images containing music and attached it to this post. All of the files in the zip were taken from various on line sources.

/Simon
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Hybrid 5000.zip
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jonb
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby jonb » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:54 am

Thanks Simon, that's brilliant!

I think your MIDI adapter is a great idea, just what I was looking for. I guess the Music 4000 connects to the user port also, but this gives me a slight problem as that is where my MMC device is connected. I'll start a new thread I think!

If the M4000 is just a matrix, it won't be able to sense velocity or pressure of the keystrokes, just binary "key is down" events; is that correct? And if it is, have you considered adding this capability to the Music 5000 system? Big ask, I'm sure - just wondering.

Interesting schematic for the M2000. This would be easy to reproduce, but would it allow a MIDI keyboard to operate the M5000? RobC (above) thinks not, what's your view? [Edit: I had a quick skim through the M2000 documents you posted and it doesn't mention using the M5000 as a recipient of MIDI commands.]

Cheers
JonB

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DutchAcorn
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby DutchAcorn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:59 am

jonb wrote:...I think your MIDI adapter is a great idea, just what I was looking for. I guess the Music 4000 connects to the user port also, but this gives me a slight problem as that is where my MMC device is connected. I'll start a new thread I think!

The M5000 system software loads an M4000 module by default (even when not attached). This module accesses the user port and causes the M5000 software to hang if you try to load it from MMC.

You can edit the script the system software uses to remove the M4000 module load. I'm away from my BBC at the moment so I don't have more detailed instructions for this now (please shout if you need them :D ).
Paul

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jonb
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby jonb » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:00 am

Interesting... but I expect the M4000 emulator uses the user port, too.

So it seems impossible to use the user port for MMC and M4000 at the same time :(

Yes, I would like to know how to disable the M4000 module as I want to load the M5000 software from MMC.

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DutchAcorn
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby DutchAcorn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:38 am

jonb wrote: ... So it seems impossible to use the user port for MMC and M4000 at the same time :(


I would not say impossible (there have been multiple designs for extra user ports) but none commercially available afaik.

Ready-built alternatives for mass storage are, among others, GoSDC and Data Centre. See this thread.

jonb wrote:Yes, I would like to know how to disable the M4000 module as I want to load the M5000 software from MMC.

I'll look it up later this week...
Paul

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simoni
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby simoni » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:22 pm

You can't use the M2000 to control the M5000, this is due to the software not supporting it (the M2000 certainly has MIDI in - so it's an interestingly poor design choice :) )

The M4000 is indeed a userport device. My prototype emulator works against the same M4000 module as the original and is therefore using the userport too.

The M4000 only support polyphony; there is no support for velocity or after-touch... and no modulation or pitch-bend support either.

Since the original AMPLE software is closed-source, I'm not sure what would be involved in adding such support in. It would probably make more sense just to rewrite the M5000 controller so it is only MIDI controlled. Then you could use the synth as a MIDI instrument to a modern sequencer; but this wouldn't really be a very 'retro' approach. My purpose with the M4000 emulator was simply to use the AMPLE software as intended without the (hard to source) M4000 - not for the next pop song; just for fun :)

Edit: As for storage; build yourself a BeebSCSI... That provides proper Acorn SCSI emulation that can work with the original ADFS - it connects via the 1MHz bus, so the userport is free. I like it a lot, but then I designed it ;)

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DutchAcorn
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby DutchAcorn » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:21 pm

DutchAcorn wrote:
jonb wrote: ... So it seems impossible to use the user port for MMC and M4000 at the same time :(


I would not say impossible (there have been multiple designs for extra user ports) but none commercially available afaik.

Ready-built alternatives for mass storage are, among others, GoSDC and Data Centre. See this thread.

jonb wrote:Yes, I would like to know how to disable the M4000 module as I want to load the M5000 software from MMC.

I'll look it up later this week...

Hmm, this is proving more challenging than I anticipated. On the BBC Master version of the system disc the modules are separate files that are loaded using a file that is *executed on boot. You can edit that file to exclude the M4 module.

The BBC B/B+ system disc is different. All the modules seem to be loaded in one big file called M.!SYSTEM. I tried to edit that but so far without success.

I attached the disc image, so if someone else likes to take a look at it.... [-o<
Attachments
M5000 System BBC.zip
(63.94 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
Paul

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IanS
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby IanS » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:21 am

simoni wrote:I'm actually working on a project at the moment that allows the use of a standard MIDI keyboard in place of the M4000. Basically it is a microcontroller based board that accepts MIDI IN via a 5 pin DIN and then uses a MT8808 crosspoint switch IC to emulate the M4000 towards the BBC's userport (The M4000 is basically a 8x8 scanned matrix keyboard).

How are you going to avoid ghosting with multiple keys pressed? I thought I'd read somewhere that the M4000 keyboard had the appropriate diodes to avoid it. The MT8808 won't have the diodes.

Edit: M4000 circuit here - viewtopic.php?t=6426#p69806

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simoni
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Re: Acorn Music 5000

Postby simoni » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:00 pm

How are you going to avoid ghosting with multiple keys pressed? I thought I'd read somewhere that the M4000 keyboard had the appropriate diodes to avoid it. The MT8808 won't have the diodes.


Seems that it does - and the MT8808 doesn't.. so back to the drawing board. I'm now of the opinion that it would be easier to write a new M4000 module or M2000 module (with MIDI in support) - since there is some information on writing modules in the AMPLE programmer's guide.

I did manage to get it all working though (apart from the ghosting issue) - it was a fun experiment :)

I've seen that M4000 schematic before... and it's wrong. The 74HC164 couldn't possibly function with it's reset line tied to ground (since that would hold it in reset...). Actually, it looks as if both pin 9 and 1 of the 74HC164 are incorrect; they should both connect to Vcc.

Also the foot switch part is incorrect. There is no FOOT1 or FOOT2 for it to connect to. They should be labelled as PB6 and PB7 according to the notes in the keyboard switches bit.


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