A Master List for New Retro Kit

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danielj
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby danielj » Sun May 21, 2017 7:10 am

MartinB wrote:ha! No, of course not, just joking - this management team is the best ever... =D> 8)


Sycophancy will get you everywhere. Have a free broken 6522 that I've cut the legs off.

d.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 8:04 am

MartinB wrote:Could UPURS get a mention please? :)

( It's very lonely over here in obscurity.... :( )


Okay. I did have the Electron user port, and I guess you need a modded cable and probably have custom ROM. (If it had just been software and USB dongle I would have added it to the offthe shelf section with pi tube)
Last edited by Elminster on Sun May 21, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 8:12 am

1024MAK wrote:The DIY sideways ROM and / or SRAM modification/upgrade also needs adding (for the BBC machines, some info on RetroClinic's site).
And the user volume control modification/upgrade (also BBC).


I took a conscious descicion to avoid those sorts of mods as not something you buy as such, and some have been around since the early days. Then if I include them there are 1000s of those sorts of projects in mags and books.

Perhaps that could be on a different list, I might need to do some crowd sourcing for that so I can give up my day job for a year. :) (or the off he shelf section maybe)

Hopefully the list will never be finished anyway, as that would mean stopped doing stuff.

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MartinB
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby MartinB » Sun May 21, 2017 10:58 am

Elminster wrote:Okay. I did have the Electron user port, and I guess you need a modded cable and probably have custom ROM. (If it had just been software and USB dongle I would have added it to the off the shelf section with pi tube)

I'd like to believe that UPURS is just as relevant amongst 'new' Acorn kit as any of the likes of the MMC or Datacentre systems. I think I'm a significant developer and contributor to the hobby and I have only ever used UPURS and floppies since re-entering Acorn computing many years ago. It is a quietly​ powerful tool if you enjoy using discs..... :)

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 6:48 pm

Sorry I had UPURS in my head as software and I was only looking at hardware, I was in in two minds as it was to whether to put ROMs containing software on, e.g. Doomsday ROM, as well.

Pitube also had me scratching my head as to where it goes, and I ended up creating a new category for that. Perhaps I need a 'prodomitary software but with element of hardware project' category.

I can of course add it, also bear in mind people can add what they want to the list, I am just starting it.

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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby BigEd » Sun May 21, 2017 6:55 pm

PiTubeDirect is indeed mostly software - but you need a level converter, and so I think a line in the main table for Kjell's level converter would be appropriate. Maybe that would be enough, with the right annotation (the level converter is only really useful with a Pi and the PiTubeDirect software!)

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 7:05 pm

BigEd wrote:PiTubeDirect is indeed mostly software - but you need a level converter, and so I think a line in the main table for Kjell's level converter would be appropriate. Maybe that would be enough, with the right annotation (the level converter is only really useful with a Pi and the PiTubeDirect software!)


Yep. I put in John's level converter which is the one I have. I can add others. Are you saying to take pitube out? Hmmm maybe custom UPURS cable in cable section. And then a software integration section that has pitube and UPURS software.

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BigEd
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby BigEd » Sun May 21, 2017 7:12 pm

Ah yes, of course, John's too. I have one of those. Kjell's is, I think, an open design. And of course you can make your own, as at least three people have. A link to the wiki page.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 7:23 pm

Will tweak things and add a few missing things. I have some others to add as well, will keep me busy next week. Although still awaiting where to put it. We now have stardot GitHub and beebwiki as front runners. Although if on beebwiki I don't think that will allow stardotters to add stuff themselves.

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1024MAK
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby 1024MAK » Sun May 21, 2017 7:38 pm

Elminster wrote:Although if on beebwiki I don't think that will allow stardotters to add stuff themselves.

Jonathan has in the past actively asked for StarDot members to help improve and expand it. A couple of years ago he gave me editing access. So I’m sure he will allow others who wish to add reasonable content access.

I have been meaning to browse it and add some extra hardware content, but real life and work have been getting in the way :(

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Sun May 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Sounds promising. Could get more people putting stuff into Beebwiki then if Jonathan needs help. A win win then.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Mon May 22, 2017 1:22 pm

Elminster wrote:So for now I have stuffed it on my wiki here

Still has missing data, I keep coming across more, and I am playing with the format. It is in an excel spreadsheet and then converted to Markdown. Need to change the product names to hotlinks at some point. But will wait till the table is 'complete' as then I can just re-export from excel without destroying all the hotlinks.


- Martin's missing UPURS & IC2 added
- Kjell's pitube signal converters added
- boobip.com RAM/ROMs added
- most of the missing data filled out

I am sure there is other stuff I have missed. Still need to make it pretty and move it to a new home, but hopefully that is the back broken.

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Elminster
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Re: Anything missing from 8bit (New) Hardware List?

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 11:20 am

Elminster wrote:So for now I have stuffed it on my wiki here

Still has missing data, I keep coming across more, and I am playing with the format. It is in an excel spreadsheet and then converted to Markdown. Need to change the product names to hotlinks at some point. But will wait till the table is 'complete' as then I can just re-export from excel without destroying all the hotlinks.


More updates:
- New DIY section covering Sweh, Myelin, paulb and joystick ports on amibay.
- Retrocomputershack cables added
- Kjell Rom switch added

Anything else I have missed?

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danielj
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby danielj » Fri May 26, 2017 11:34 am

Retroclinic's rom switcher's called the "MultiOS" - there was a previous version called the DualOS that swapped between two OS images.

d.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 12:08 pm

danielj wrote:Retroclinic's rom switcher's called the "MultiOS" - there was a previous version called the DualOS that swapped between two OS images.

d.


Yep. I have one fitted about 4 inches from me as I type.

I didnt bother as you cant buy it now but you can buy the 4 ROM version. Didnt seem much point in adding it just to say it had been replaced. I might * it to say multiple revisions or something. I havent actually put all the '*' notes on the table yet, people have to guess them.

Edit: Also didnt put the Retroclinic original CF IDE on there as superceded by DC.

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Re: Anything missing from 8bit (New) Hardware List?

Postby myelin » Fri May 26, 2017 5:46 pm

Elminster wrote: - New DIY section covering Sweh, Myelin, paulb and joystick ports on amibay.


Thanks for including my projects! One more:

Product: Elk PiTubeDirect
Desc: Electron cartridge interface for PiTubeDirect
Designer: myelin
Active: Y
Connection: Cartridge
Compatible: Electron
Etc: Design only / open source / not for profit
Link: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11325&start=720#p166961

Also some of my projects have multiple interfaces; it might make sense to have the interface be "USB, Cartridge" for the USB cart interface, and "Elk Expansion, Cartridge" for the 3-cart expansion. Or if the intention is for that field to be the *primary* interface, "USB" and "Elk Expansion" are probably more correct.
SW/EE from New Zealand, now in San Francisco: http://myelin.nz/
Having fun making hardware projects for the Electron!
So far: 32k flash cart, USB cart interface, 3-cart expansion, Elk PiTubeDirect. Later: Dual ported ram cart.

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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby JonC » Fri May 26, 2017 6:13 pm

Maybe use a slightly different approach, something like;

Connects to: (1Mhz Bus,User Port,Internal\External Tube Port,Elk Expansion Bus, Plus1/Rombox/Master Cartridge Slot)
Interfaces provided: (None/USB/IDE/Serial)
Form Factor: (Rom/Cartridge/Bespoke)

Should prevent confusion without (hopefully) adding too much complexity to the list.

:mrgreen:
Jon
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby 1024MAK » Fri May 26, 2017 7:23 pm

I know this list is intended for "new" "kit". But if something (that was produced after the hey days, but not anymore) comes up on say a well known auction site, or a trading forum, or even on this forum, it would be handy for less experienced owners to be able to find said item and hence details of it in a database...

Just saying...

Mark
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby MartinB » Fri May 26, 2017 7:43 pm

Soooooo...., perhaps like RAMagic! that you (nearly) mentioned in an earlier post Mark....? :wink:

Mark wrote:I also can't see your Magic thingy...


http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... Magic.html

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 8:13 pm

1024MAK wrote:I know this list is intended for "new" "kit". But if something (that was produced after the hey days, but not anymore) comes up on say a well known auction site, or a trading forum, or even on this forum, it would be handy for less experienced owners to be able to find said item and hence details of it in a database...

Just saying...

Mark


Not sure on that one. That could lay on the path to madness if try to put it into a new hardware list. A grand unifying theory of hardware is perhaps needed for that or a 'what on earth is this random piece of stuff that has arrived in this beeb I got from bay watch' list.

Edit: I think a case by case basis probably. I.e. Completely random. I have some of John stuff on ,it's that is EOL as he still supports it.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri May 26, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elminster
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Re: Anything missing from 8bit (New) Hardware List?

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 8:15 pm

myelin wrote:
Elminster wrote: - New DIY section covering Sweh, Myelin, paulb and joystick ports on amibay.


Thanks for including my projects! One more:

Product: Elk PiTubeDirect


Yep will stuff that one on the list as well. I did see that one but I think I thought it was an Electorn with a tube interface running a PI that way.

Will think about categories and such like.

EDIT: To my spreadsheet will appear on Wiki when I do next push
Last edited by Elminster on Fri May 26, 2017 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit?

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 8:16 pm

JonC wrote:Maybe use a slightly different approach, something like;

Connects to: (1Mhz Bus,User Port,Internal\External Tube Port,Elk Expansion Bus, Plus1/Rombox/Master Cartridge Slot)
Interfaces provided: (None/USB/IDE/Serial)
Form Factor: (Rom/Cartridge/Bespoke)

Should prevent confusion without (hopefully) adding too much complexity to the list.

:mrgreen:


You mean split 1 column into 3? Or 2 into 3? Or somethingelse. I think I am confused already :)

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Fri May 26, 2017 8:23 pm

I do know I have some stuff from Mark @ retroclinic and Steve Picton missing. They cycle through stuff on ebay and I know I have a couple of bits missing still. Will capture them when i can.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Sat May 27, 2017 8:50 am

Arg. Thought I was nearly done on the list and after spotting the AtoMMC post I realised I have no Atom hardware on there, and there appears to be quthe a bit. Not being an Atom fan/owner this section entirely passed me by. Oops :oops:

Also if/when the list is finished I think might have to do something similar for software, but I am in no hurry as I think that will make this list look easy to do. The nearest I guess is mdfs.net currently but that doesn't cover games and such like. Things that spring to mind are software by Tricky, Sweh, Fourthstone, ChrisB etc. all f which I have used or loaded at recently.

(Castle defender is one of my most favourite games on Beeb, and Tricky's frogger is better than the original according to my daughter).

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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby BigEd » Sat May 27, 2017 11:05 am

Might be worth adding hoglet's in-circuit emulator which is great for debugging:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11963&p=151353&hilit=ice#p151353

Also there's the possible question of CPU upgrades: whether faster or upgrades from 6502 to 65816. Not sure of any projects that have good standing - our own beeb816 did work for a while and is open source.

I know there were historical Turbo boards for the Electron, but I guess you always need to be lucky enough to have a socketed 6502 or bold enough to remove an unsocketed one.

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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Ah sorry missed looking to add the bit from BigEd's post but have now added the following to the list after a couple of weeks wrestling with BASIC instead. Added these:

    Martin B - Eeprom (as lots of hardware projects borrow the idea/doces etc., have added explicitly in DIY section)
    Reroclinic added to reseller section
    RamMagic (because it has a RTC and not many addon, seem to have this, otherwise it is more or less superseded by UPURS)
    High Density Mod
    Sydney x 2
    MMBEEB
    ATOM 32K RAM/ROM
    Atom Floppy Board
    Atom Colour Board
    AtoMMC2 SC Card
    Atom 6809 Second Processor
    ATOS 2015
    Atom GODIL Video Adapter
    Atom Tube interface
    Atom FPGA

The details on the Atom addonds are a bit sketchy as I am not an Atom person, and have never used/owned one. Someone may need to help me fill in the details, for all I know they run on nuclear fusion and use Quarks for storage.

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simoni
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby simoni » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:56 am

In the current list:

Beebscsi should be BeebSCSI
Small Mouse 2 should be SmallyMouse2

I have also published the following additional projects (all open-source/hardware):

Acorn Econet Clock V2 - http://www.waitingforfriday.com/?p=19
Acorn Speech PHROM TMS6100 Emulator - http://www.waitingforfriday.com/?p=30

The Speech PHROM project is similar to Sprow's (in that it is for use with the TI speech chip), only mine is a completely open design.

and an upgrade for the Master 128 power supply: http://www.waitingforfriday.com/?p=794

None of these are 'built' kits with the exception of SmallyMouse2 which BetaGamma Computing (TheCorfiot) is making based on my open design.

Personally I think the list should be split into open source/hardware designs and closed designs. Open designs are good for the hobby and allow everyone to build and build upon (and should be promoted by all of us). Closed designs are only good for the author to make a quick buck and cannot be maintained once the author looses interest (and are therefore less interesting - especially over time).

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:45 am

I will make corrections and look at the extra bits.

Personally I think the list should be split into open source/hardware designs and closed designs. Open designs are good for the hobby and allow everyone to build and build upon (and should be promoted by all of us). Closed designs are only good for the author to make a quick buck and cannot be maintained once the author looses interest (and are therefore less interesting - especially over time).


While I understand where you are coming from, and indeed closed source can be frustrating if you want to change something, many people buy (some even prefer) closed (mainly due to the offical support you get). The list makes no judgements it just gives people a 'list of what is available'.

Also you notice when doing the list it is a bit ambiguous, there are many items that are open source but people make a profit off of them, and items that are closed source that are done for cost price. And many in between. (Hence splitting out the license type and the Org Type). And also there are about 20 different open source license. Splitting the projects out into 'good' and 'bad' seems like a world of pain as seen by the open vs closed source debates over the last 20 years.

Personally I am happy with my Sprow Ethernet Card (closed, and no other options) and my Beebsid (open). That is my opinion anyway, I dont know what other people feel?

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simoni
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby simoni » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:23 am

Open-source = OSI approved license
Closed-source = not OSI approved license

https://opensource.org/licenses

It's not much of a debate these days :)

Any hobbyist who prefers closed designs over open designs is usually unaware of why it's a bad thing (and the fact that the 'official support' is on an undisclosed time-limit). Which is why 'we' (as in the open-source/hardware providers) need to do our best to promote it ;)

Still; this thread isn't really the right place for such debates. I was really just wanting to see that the 'split' was clearly communicated. However, I'm not going to labour the point overly.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:50 am

simoni wrote:Open-source = OSI approved license
Closed-source = not OSI approved license

https://opensource.org/licenses
.


Yep, easy if there is a declared license. But not all hobists put a license or I just didnt see it when I was looking. So generally for those I have put 'Other'.

Edit: I should also say that 'Other' is a catchall, it could be something is open source in all ways except no recognised license, or ir could be I cant find info either way, I generally defaut to Other, and then change to either open or propriety at a later stage. Should also be aware still in data gathering and cleansing stage.


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