A Master List for New Retro Kit

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simoni
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby simoni » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:58 am

I should also say that 'Other' is a catchall


I like that approach, we should sell it to the RISC OS "Open" guys... "RISC OS Other" is a so much better (and far more truthful) title :D

Seriously though; good work on the list, it's nice to see all the info in one place.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:03 am

simoni wrote:
I should also say that 'Other' is a catchall


I like that approach, we should sell it to the RISC OS "Open" guys... "RISC OS Other" is a so much better (and far more truthful) title :D

Seriously though; good work on the list, it's nice to see all the info in one place.


Thanks. It is only here so I can make sure I have one of everything :)

I hadnt spotted the Master PSU rebuild/remake before. Might have a go at that one.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:56 pm

Just when you thought everything that could be added had been added. The following have been added!

    sirmorris sd card
    simoni Acorn Econet Clock V2
    simoni Acorn Speech PHROM TMS6100
    simoni BBC Master PSU Upgrade
    bigEd beed816
    Hoglet ice-t

And a few corrections. Phew. That is about 96 item rows now.

Just to remind people. URL is on post 1/page 1

Coeus
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Coeus » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Elminster wrote:Also you notice when doing the list it is a bit ambiguous, there are many items that are open source but people make a profit off of them, and items that are closed source that are done for cost price. And many in between. (Hence splitting out the license type and the Org Type). And also there are about 20 different open source license. Splitting the projects out into 'good' and 'bad' seems like a world of pain as seen by the open vs closed source debates over the last 20 years.


I think because open source software is usually free in monetary terms it is easy to conflate the two but for me the difference is about the ability to make adaptations and not be dependent on the goodwill of someone else to make them for me because that person or company is the only one with access to the source code or design details.

So with that in mind I am quite happy for people to make money out of open source things and just because something proprietary is sold for little profit doesn't mean I will buy it. I am less concerned about opennes if a device or project's function is well contained and fairly simple so I am unlikely to want to make changes myself.

I agree with you that, as curator of the list, it is best just to provide the information and let people make up their own minds.

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MartinB
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby MartinB » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:34 pm

For my two penneth....

I am involved with Beeb stuff purely as a leisure-time hobby and enjoy being creative with hardware and software in just the same way as another person might enjoy being creative with a paintbrush. I enjoy sharing my efforts, enjoy others getting use and pleasure from stuff I do and wherever possible, I'll do anything for anyone if they ask for help or for features and tweaks. For me, it's that simple and that innocent O:)
I knew nothing whatsoever of this open and closed concept until seeing it mentioned on here but one thing I have taken from the discussions is that I certainly would object to anyone labelling something I create with the obviously disapproving and disparaging 'closed' expression when as far as I'm concerned, I have never opted in to any such schemes and have no wish to do so.

So, if any lists on which my stuff appear are to include this political spin, please mark mine as N/A .... [-( =; :wink:

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simoni
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby simoni » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:22 am

So, if any lists on which my stuff appear are to include this political spin


It's not 'political', it's legal. Unfortunately, in this day and age of copyrights and patents, you have to use the unfair laws against themselves if you'd like your creativity to be shared and continue to be shared. I'd advise a few things; release your software with a GPLv3 licence (or similar) and add a creative commons 'share-alike' license to any associated artwork and secondly, put your schematics and code on github (github is a little confusing to begin with, but there are some nice clients available that make it all simple).

This means that others can contribute to (and build upon) your work without any confusion over what's allowed/disallowed and even fork and continue them when you've moved on to other things.

Don't take this as a pro/against open-source post (although I clearly have a preference for open - but that's my choice)... If you are writing software, understanding licensing isn't really an optional thing any more. If any of your projects uses or builds upon other open or closed source projects (or you'd like others to build upon your software (or not)) you have to have a base understanding of licensing. "Ignorantia juris non excusat" and all that. :)

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BigEd
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby BigEd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:08 am

One problem with this question is that people feel strongly about it. For the purpose of this project, it's good to be informative but otherwise neutral.

Perhaps one way to approach it is to change the presentation:
- a column for 'sources available', 'Yes' or 'No' (or 'Some')
- a column for 'open source license', 'Yes' or '-' (or '?')

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:45 am

BigEd wrote:One problem with this question is that people feel strongly about it. For the purpose of this project, it's good to be informative but otherwise neutral.


Agreed. Working in the commercial IT world as I do I go for Neutral(ish) and using right product for the job, be i open or not. It is never free either way and it is usually cost and security that customers are more worried about (And whether open source is more secure and cost less is another one of them bubbling along debates). And gets even more confusing once you add in that most commercialy supported products have some element of open source code in them somewhere. But agree with Simoni, it is worth getting a basic understanding, there is no right or wrong answer just shades of garish Acorn mode 7 pallette.

Perhaps one way to approach it is to change the presentation:
- a column for 'sources available', 'Yes' or 'No' (or 'Some')
- a column for 'open source license', 'Yes' or '-' (or '?')


That is more or less what the 'other' column is. Well it is really a dodge. It means. 'Dont know', 'Openish but no license','Closedish but free to use/modify if you can work out how','Based on other open source' and anything else I can think of.

I could add more columns or extra category's in existing ones. Just a bit worried that you average man in the street might get confused. And of course a retro computer user is not you average user. Hmmmm.

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BigEd
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby BigEd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:56 am

I'd think of it this way: the point is to answer a question a person might have, not to be technically correct.

People's questions are going to be something like this:
- do I need to pay for this, with an expectation of support (that's the Commercial question)
- can I tinker with this and make my own variations for my own purposes (that's the Source Available question)
- could someone take this, perhaps modify it, and resupply it, perhaps in the case that the original author has lost interest or disappeared (that's the Clear Reusable License question)

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:21 am

BigEd wrote:I'd think of it this way: the point is to answer a question a person might have, not to be technically correct.

People's questions are going to be something like this:
- do I need to pay for this, with an expectation of support (that's the Commercial question)
- can I tinker with this and make my own variations for my own purposes (that's the Source Available question)
- could someone take this, perhaps modify it, and resupply it, perhaps in the case that the original author has lost interest or disappeared (that's the Clear Reusable License question)


Sort of what I had envisaged the Active column to do. So the columns are probably all there already, just may need to tweak somehow.

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BigEd
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby BigEd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:23 am

With careful naming, and some carefully worded footnotes, it should be possible...

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:25 am

BigEd wrote:With careful naming, and some carefully worded footnotes, it should be possible...


There are already lots of footnotes just I havent added them yet. You will notice the *'s all over the place. So already on my todo list that one.

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MartinB
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby MartinB » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:42 pm

Simon wrote:If any of your projects uses or builds upon other open or closed source projects (or you'd like others to build upon your software (or not)) you have to have a base understanding of licensing. "Ignorantia juris non excusat" and all that. :)

Everything I produce is entirely my own and if I ever did want to use someone else's stuff, I would ask permission. If I couldn't get permission then I wouldn't use it. People have asked to use my stuff and I've let them. I've caught a couple of people being naughty on ebay with my stuff over the years so I messaged them, told them they were infringing my IP and that they should cease forthwith. They both did. I'm not ignorant of the law and as an intelligent person, that offends me.
Anyway, there's no discussion to be had here with me, this is my leisure-time hobby and things like this spoil it. I choose not to get involved with licenses. End of... :D

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1024MAK
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:35 pm

I think that's enough discussion about copyright and licensing for this thread. You can of course open a new thread if you wish to discuss this further.

Now back to the hardware please...

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:36 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now back to the hardware please...
Mark


You need to invent something.

Think I will post a post on the facebook group to ask if anyone else has anything they want to put on the list.

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DutchAcorn
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby DutchAcorn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:23 am

Sydney's design for extra Master User Ports was implemented by IFEL (ctorwy31) into a batch of PCB's. See this thread. They were also available through eBay for a while.
Paul

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:02 am

Okay thanks. Been meaning to drop steve an emial at somepoint, will check if this was a test production run or if he intends to run off more.

And anything else he plans to build.

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:08 am

Some tweaks:

- Put BeebSCSI and BeebSCSI Internal Master 1Mhz Card as seperate items.
- Put flynnjs as Active sellor of BeebSCSI, not sure best way to do it but that was how I did it for other items. Hmmm
- Added the DIY 64 to 129k BBC B+ hack
- Added the 32K SRAM Beeb hack

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DutchAcorn
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby DutchAcorn » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:50 am

Elminster wrote:...
- Added the DIY 64 to 129k BBC B+ hack
...

For the B+ it may be instructive to change the link to this thread: http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9483

That thread links to the same instructions but 1) explaines how the RAM count in the banner works and 2) includes instructions to extend the upgrade to 160K
Paul

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:37 pm

Tweaked with following:

Myelin - Microcontroller UPURS cable
Cmorley os RAM board - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13147
Atom Yarrb - Roland - viewtopic.php?f=44&t=11373
AtomSID prime & oss003 versions

Plus DutchAcorn suggestion above

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Elminster
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Re: A Master List for New Retro Kit

Postby Elminster » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Few more changes

Added
Super Cap master config backup

Tweaked
VideoNula
OS RAM Module

Errata
Wron URL for BBC Master PSU replacement


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