M3000 vs M5000

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pstnotpd
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M3000 vs M5000

Postby pstnotpd » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:45 pm

With the apparent interest in M5000 (emulation) and some posts in LOLPRICE in mind...

Does anyone know what the actual differences between M3000 and M5000 are? As I understand it the M3000 is meant to expand the polyphony of the M5000 setup to 16. How was this accomplished? From way back I remember the hardware basically being the same but some 1mhz addressing magic was done to distinguish between the two.

Was there ever any sofware support for this in the AMPLE releases?

Reason I ask: is there a point in trying to "expand" hoglet's M5000 emulation to M5000+M3000?

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danielj
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby danielj » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:04 pm

Yup - it was the same, just existed at a different address on the 1MHz bus. What that was, i'm not sure :?

d.

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hoglet
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby hoglet » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:34 pm

danielj wrote:Yup - it was the same, just existed at a different address on the 1MHz bus. What that was, i'm not sure :?

On the 1MHz bus the Music 5000 implements a paging register at &FCFF and a 256 byte window onto the 2KB Wave RAM at &FD00-&FDFF. It is a write-only device; i.e. it never drives the data bus back into the Beeb.

The Music 5000 only enables writes when a value in the range &30-&3F is written to the &FCFF paging register. The Music 3000 is identical to the Music 5000, except it uses a different page range (currently unknown).

As far as software, the Music 3000 installation disk is required to customise a Music 5000 installation for the additional channels.

Does anyone actually have this disk? I can't find it anywhere :(

If so, then we can easily determine the address range (using B-Em debugger by watching writes to &FCFF).

Doubling the number of channels in the emulation should be straightforward. But it's only worth doing this is there is any music that uses more than 8 voices.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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danielj
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby danielj » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:14 pm

If anyone has it, Paul V will...? (I've just dropped him a nudge-y PM)

d.

RobC
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby RobC » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:28 pm

danielj wrote:If anyone has it, Paul V will...?

Indeed: http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Hybrid-Music-3000-Expander/

The notes seem to imply that the standard M5000 software detects the additional hardware and makes use of it if required:
The standard Hybrid Music software detects the Music 3000 automatically and the user interface expands to provide control for the extra channels that the module provides.


I guess this could be upon loading of the Studio-3 disk though?

Thinking about it, hasn't Chris Jordan posted on here in the past?

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:11 pm

Hi All,

My discs are in storage at the moment. However, when I've used the M3000 with the M5000 together, I haven't needed any special install discs AFAICR, it really did "just work" with with the version of the AMPLE ROM I have and the studio disc which is one that starts the M2000, M4000 and M5000 modules. AFAIK, the M5000 module does a check on the M3000 and M5000 address locations and just widens out the mixer to more channels which you have to scroll the screen right to see and it also allows for more complex synth voices.

Paul

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hoglet
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby hoglet » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:38 pm

Hi Paul,
paulv wrote:My discs are in storage at the moment. However, when I've used the M3000 with the M5000 together, I haven't needed any special install discs AFAICR, it really did "just work" with with the version of the AMPLE ROM I have and the studio disc which is one that starts the M2000, M4000 and M5000 modules. AFAIK, the M5000 module does a check on the M3000 and M5000 address locations and just widens out the mixer to more channels which you have to scroll the screen right to see and it also allows for more complex synth voices.

As far as I understand, the M3000 and M5000 are write-only 1MHz bus devices, so it's not possible for the AMPLE software to determine what's attached, or even if anything is attached.

My reading around suggests that the M3000 installation disk contains a different version of the M.M5 and M.MIX files that increases the number of supported voices from 8 to 16.

I wonder if somehow you have managed to get a system disk with those updated files on it?

The version I have certainly only supports 8 voices, and trying to use more channels in the Mixing Desk results in an error:
MIX12.png

Here's some info on the M.M5 and M.INFO files I'm using:
MIXinfo.png

These came from Colin Fraser's site:
http://www.colinfraser.com/m5000/m5000.htm

If anyone has versions that are different lengths, then please let me know.

Dave

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hoglet
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby hoglet » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:02 pm

I just discovered how you display the module version number:
modver.png


For reference, there is more useful info about the later M5000 software releases here:
http://amplinex.blogspot.co.uk/1992/01/ ... eases.html

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:06 pm

Yes, it appears so.

I bought the M3000 as part of a complete lot with genuine AMPLE rom and discs so it was already applied...

I also found that I'd uploaded the pdf for the M3000 Studio 3 installation guide to my site...

http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/3rdParty/Hybrid/documents/HybridMusic3000-InstallationGuide.pdf

So, here's the thing.

I've not really told people publicly before but 2 years ago, I was diagnosed with a very rare form of Cancer with about 500 cases a year across Europe and for many people this particular cancer is fatal. It has no signature in blood tests, does not show up in ultra sounds or x-rays and usually, by the time it is discovered, it's too late. Thankfully we found it before that stage however it had progressed quite far with Cancer being in my Pelvis. I was initially told that I might lose my leg but after the surgeons in London consulted with some surgeons in the US it was decided that they'd attempt to save my leg and remove the left half of my pelvis which sounded a whole lot better to me than losing the leg and pelvis.

At that point, everything went into storage and Tracie and I started making plans to make life as easy as possible for my post Cancer life, I started my Chemo and we prepared for having an extension to the house to make it more disability friendly etc. Chemo was rough. I had a hickman line fitted which is a plastic tube in your chest that goes into the vena cava and stops about 1 inch away from the heart. Through that I underwent a three weekly cycle of chemo drugs administered directly into my chest.

After 6 cycles of chemo, I had to wait for 7 weeks until I was strong enough to undergo surgery at which point I left my home outside Leicester and headed for Stanmore RNOH for 6 weeks. The morning after I arrived (Oct 20th 2015) I had the surgery which lasted 7-8 hours and they really did remove half of my Pelvis. I spent two days in intensive care followed by 2 weeks of bed rest, then 4 weeks of intensive physiotherapy to get walking using a walking frame.

When I returned home, the rest of my recovery has been the priority and unfortunately it didn't go as smoothly as it could have. The chemo has left me with numb hands and feet, I walk around on crutches and because of the surgery, I'm 6'4" tall when standing on my right leg and around 6' tall when standing on my left leg (despite my legs still being the same length!). The physio's here in Leicester had never dealt with anyone like me before so they simply treated the symptoms of my issue as there's very little else they could do.

My recovery these days is going really well but it has been a much slower process than any of us had anticipated. I'm coming up to 18 months Cancer free in April and life is finally returning to normal. I've been working from home throughout my illness and despite everything only took 15 weeks leave throughout the entire experience... Someone has to pay the mortgage right? Now I've got my driving licence back although I'm limited to an auto and it's a 3 year medical licence due to the numb hands and feet thing. I'm still safer than most drivers on the road though judging by how some people drive :-o

The house extension was completed almost a year ago now but the original part of the house needed tweaks to make my life easier and so that work is still carrying on at the moment doing work as and when we could afford it as we sank everything we had into the extension. We're anticipating finally being complete around Easter time.

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for the physio and OT support staff to teach me how to get up my own stairs and when I can do that, I'll be able to access all my Acorn stuff which is still neatly in storage all boxed up in a room where no-one has been in for the last two years. The physio's should be teaching me how to do tackle my own stairs in the coming weeks but I have to wait for them to contact me to arrange a date and as yet, I've heard nothing from them about this... I'm on the list, just have to wait.

It's likely that I do have a Studio 3 disc up there somewhere but sorting out the boxes and finding the hybrid kit will take a while.

Anyway, that's my last two years

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:10 pm

I'd also like to say, to those on *. that knew my situation, a big thank you for your support through the last couple of years, it meant a great deal to me!

8) 8) =D> =D>

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:12 pm

Good luck with the ongoing recovery, Paul and I hope those stairs aren't a barrier for too much longer.

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby hoglet » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:24 pm

Gosh, that rather puts things into perspective. I had no idea.

Good luck to you and your family in your continued recovery.

Dave

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby danielj » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:50 pm

Go you, Paul :) Really pleased to hear everything's getting back to normal.

d.

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby pstnotpd » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:16 pm

Right now, I just want to add I'm happy to be back on *. just for these kind of replies.

@paulv, keep on fighting!!!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D>

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby davidb » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:25 pm

Wishing you and your family all the best with your recovery and adapting to life afterwards. :)

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby fordp » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:29 pm

Indeed, I hope you are up those stairs soon Paul,

I too am a cancer survivor but it cost me a lot less bother. I am in remission for 8 years now.

Good luck.
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:52 am

fordp wrote:I am in remission for 8 years now.
=D>

Dave H :D
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby RobC » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:51 am

Sorry to hear that your recovery didn't progress as well as it could have Paul but glad to hear that things have improved now.

Best wishes for the future and hope the physios get in touch soon.

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:36 am

Thank you all :D

I skipped all the gory details of the recovery, suffice to say, it has and continues to be hard work. The little things however have kept me sane.

Reading Stardot and contributing when I could, Skype for those times the chemo made me too unwell for visitors or when I was 200 miles from home recovering from surgery, emails from friends and colleagues etc.

The excellent medical staff at the LRI and the RNOH who are overworked and way, way underpaid deserve all the recognition they can get too. They're all awesome people!

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:41 am

fordp wrote:Indeed, I hope you are up those stairs soon Paul,

I too am a cancer survivor but it cost me a lot less bother. I am in remission for 8 years now.

Good luck.


Thanks.

That's great to hear. My main goal at the moment is to reach 2 years free and move to 6 monthly checkups, having to trek to London and Leicester every three months for check ups is a bit of a drag when you're on crutches!

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby sweh » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:22 am

Blugh cancer sucks. I had a melanoma 4 years back and it was touch and go as to whether it had metastatised (if it had then the 5 year prognosis wasn't good) but fortunately it was caught just in time. So my recovery was basically a patch of numb skin on my arm where the nerves have been cut and a scar under the shoulder where lymph nodes were extracted for testing.

Absolutely nowhere near the PITA that you're going through.

Cancer sucks.

(I'd use stronger words but this is a family forum).
Rgds
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:05 am

Hi Paul

I'm glad that things are now looking a lot brighter for you now.

Hopefully over the coming months, you will be able to get up the stairs. Not for me to give advice, but I know someone who has to use a wheelchair and so uses their arms to help with stairs, going from one wheelchair to another.

I think all the regulars here will agree that your posting was missed. Good that our posts helped to entertain and maybe educate during what must have been both a boring and frustrating time.

I wish you well.

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:02 pm

sweh wrote:So my recovery was basically a patch of numb skin on my arm where the nerves have been cut and a scar under the shoulder where lymph nodes were extracted for testing.

Absolutely nowhere near the PITA that you're going through.

Cancer sucks.


Indeed it does!

You have to concentrate on the positives though. For instance, I am AFAIK still the record holder at the RNOH for the highest number of staples holding a surgical wound together. The surgery involved slicing me open from my pubic bone at the front all the way around to the sacrum at the base of my spine AND a second incision across my left buttock that is a good 6-8 inches long all by itself!!!

I had so many staples, it took two days for the nurses to remove them all because they didn't want to risk taking them all out in one go and the wound re-opening a bit :-o The whole removal process took a couple of hours over those two days...

What you have to do to be a record holder eh? lol

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby sweh » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:15 pm

paulv wrote:What you have to do to be a record holder eh? lol

Where is Roy Castle and Norris McWhirter when you need them?
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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:21 pm

So, a few months ago, I bought a Tacx trainer for my bike to mount it for use as an exercise bike... I was told by my surgeon that it would be highly unlikely that I'd ever be able to get on a bike again.

Last night, I got on my bike! Two and a half years since I last rode a bike so I'm feeling pretty good about that... 8)

Anyway, as an update to the thread... The physio's are coming out next Wednesday to help me with my first attempt at getting up the stairs... One and a half years since I last used them... There's more to do than just get up the stairs in the house but it's a firm progression to me getting access to all my kit :D I have an inkling that the discs are actually easily accessed so I may be able to dig them out when I'm up there next week...

Wish me luck!

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:25 pm

Well, sorry it's taken so long but it took a while for me to be able to get up into the room where all my kit is stored. Then I had the job of finding the Hybrid equipment... Today, I found my Master packed oh so tidily in a really useful box with all of the Hybrid kit. I've extracted the M3000 from it's slumber, stripped it down and taken some photo's...

Component-side-1.jpg


Component-side-2.jpg


Component-side-3.jpg


Component-side-4.jpg


Component-side-detail-1.jpg


Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:26 pm

Now the solder side...

Solder-side.jpg


Solder-side-1.jpg


Solder-side-2.jpg


Solder-side-3.jpg


Solder-side-4.jpg


Solder-side-detail-1.jpg


Solder-side-detail-2.jpg

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:28 pm

The M3000 in it's base case

M3000-nocase.jpg


PSU.jpg


Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:35 pm

The original hi-res photo's are in a zip file on my site...

http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/3rdParty/Hybrid/Originals.zip

They were all taken on my mobile so not brilliant but not bad either....

I also manage to find all my original discs. There is no specific M3000 labelled disc so I'll bring them all along to the ABug meet in November and someone can archive them all seeing as my kit is still in boxes.

Paul

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Re: M3000 vs M5000

Postby paulv » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:54 pm

I just found the photo's of the timing mod for the Music 5000 on the thread here http://stardot.org.uk/forums/download/file.php?id=209.

Comparing that with my Music 3000 clearly shows that the 3000 has two extra wires compared to the 5000 plus a couple of extra caps too..

I just took apart my Music 500 (totally unmodified) and it is the same PCB version as my M3000 with a what appears to be a manufacture date within 2 weeks of the Music 3000 I have. It would appear that Hybrid had a stack of boards made and just used them up as demand required seeing as the Music 500 and 3000 were released quite some time apart but they are using boards made within 2 weeks of each other.

Paul


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