Domesday86 Project

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simoni
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Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:47 am

After much hacking, scanning and organising we finally have our Domesday86 project website up and running. It includes a lot of documents, pictures and other information about Domesday as well as an overview of the project. Both the SmallyMouse and BeebSCSI devices are included too.

Perhaps you have seen a number of posts from me over recent months on the subject of ADFS, VFS and the Philips VP415 LaserVision player; hopefully the content of the site shows what Ian Smallshire and myself have been up to :)

BeebSCSI is now fully documented (User Guide, Technical Guide and Hardware Guide). All that's left is to put up the software and hardware files for the project (hopefully in the next couple of days).

Please take a look and let me know what you think! I'm also interested if you have anything you think should be included.

http://www.domesday86.com

We are on the lookout for help and assistance with material (see the Resources page on the site for details) - so if you have anything useful we'd both appreciate hearing from you.

/Simon and Ian

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danielj
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby danielj » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:19 am

:D - Great work guys!

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flaxcottage
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flaxcottage » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:44 pm

Very impressive! =D> =D>
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby RobC » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:22 pm

Excellent work =D>

I have the Master AIV guide and the Video disc user guide if you want to borrow them to scan.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 pm

I have the Master AIV guide and the Video disc user guide if you want to borrow them to scan


Yes, yes and yes please :)

I'm based in Sweden, but Ian is in the UK (and has an A3 scanner); so I will ask him to get in touch with you via PM.

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danielj
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby danielj » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:58 pm

Now, is anyone considering doing a run of beebscsi PCBs?!

d.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:16 pm

Now, is anyone considering doing a run of beebscsi PCBs


A storage solution 3 times faster than IDE-based systems, 6Gbs of storage over 12 LUNs and completely open-source...; who'd want such a thing? :D

The software and PCB design are not quite "release" status yet (although the whole project is available on github). I'm planning on doing a limited run of boards for testing, just to ensure the designs are up to scratch.

However, if anyone is interested in making and selling BeebSCSI boards then you are welcome to contact me - the design is completely open-source and open-hardware (so you don't even need my permission to make them) - but I'd be happy to offer support :)

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby ssgoodwin » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:09 am

Great site, well done. =D>
Left a donation to help, hopefully others will too.
Scott

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:19 am

Great site, well done.
Left a donation to help, hopefully others will too.


Thanks very much Scott; it's greatly appreciated! BeebSCSI development costs so far have been more than I would care to mention on a forum that my wife might stumble across :)

/Simon

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:44 am

simoni wrote:However, if anyone is interested in making and selling BeebSCSI boards then you are welcome to contact me - the design is completely open-source and open-hardware (so you don't even need my permission to make them) - but I'd be happy to offer support :)
I should be able to manage this project this year - I'm getting organised, at last . . . I'll pm you.
simoni wrote:BeebSCSI development costs so far have been more than I would care to mention on a forum that my wife might stumble across :)
I know just what you mean . . . Fortunately Mrs H has other things to look at on t'internet :lol:

Dave H :D
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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danielj
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby danielj » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:48 am

I just dropped simon a PM too - we should coordinate as I expect there would be quite some demand...

d.

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:03 am

Sounds like a plan, Daniel . . .

Dave h :D
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flynnjs
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flynnjs » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:40 am

I was going to suggest to run a few off on the P&P machine.
Any chance of the Eagle files please?

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:51 am

Everything is available via GitHub... Here's a link to the section with the Eagle files:

https://github.com/simoninns/BeebSCSI/t ... SCSI_Eagle

Note that these are currently 'untested'; I've made some by hand, but I'm currently waiting for some professionally made PCBs to arrive.

/Simon

Edit> P.S. I'm not an expert at PCB production by any means, so I welcome any feedback (or even improved Eagle files) that anyone makes.

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby BeebMaster » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:12 pm

Very nice and thanks for all the effort! I'd definitely be interested in anything SCSI flavoured if a run of boards is made.
Image

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flynnjs
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flynnjs » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:13 pm

simoni wrote:P.S. I'm not an expert at PCB production by any means, so I welcome any feedback (or even improved Eagle files) that anyone makes.


Awesome, thanks for the github link. They look really nice layouts for a "not an expert".
I love laying PCBs out and I'm going to respin this to get the board size down and put all
the SMDs one side so a machine can do it in one pass. I'll send my changes back to you.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:19 pm

They look really nice layouts for a "not an expert".


:) Thanks! To say there have been a few revisions would be an understatement... the initial design was based on the original Acorn SCSI adapter and had in excess of 20 ICs

old_boards.jpg


I have been hand making the PCBs so far (I have three working prototype boards running at the moment) so the primary concern has been to route them with tolerances suitable for UV transfer printing ensuring that the vias can be wired through and that none of the solder points are under any components hence the dual-sided layout of the components. I had plans to redesign it for fab-printing (which I have very little experience with), but it's taken about 5 months of work just to get this far and I wanted to share the project in the hope others would help out and contribute; so your offer is well received.

My main driver was Domesday emulation... it just so happened I had to make BeebSCSI to get there :)

One note though (in case you haven't trolled through the 40 pages of documentation!) - for internal use there is an adaptor board to handle the CMOS levels of the internal 1 MHz bus. I've put the schematics for it up on GitHub too (this morning). It plugs into the IDC of BeebSCSI and the 20 pin SIL of the Master - it also has a 'magic' signal that causes BeebSCSI to automatically reconfigure itself for VFS. You will also find pictures on the web site of how it is mounted internally.

Let me know if you have any questions along the way.

/Simon

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flynnjs
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flynnjs » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:54 pm

Well, that was a reasonable evening work:

BeebSCSI.png


Needs some smaller fiducials and the termination resisitors might need to move left if the socket frame is on the component side.
This is around half the PCB area (so will be cheaper) and all the components are one side making it pick and placeable.
No pins were swapped on any active devices... the only thing I changed were the resistors so the original firmware should work OK.

Unless you're a wiz making your own PCBs it's probably not suitable for hand making.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:23 am

That looks really nice :)

My only comment is that the original mounting holes were positioned so the board would fit internally in a Master (in the left-side gap for the AIV SCSI board) - hence the two diagonally positioned mounting holes. This constraint also meant the board width had to be less than the available gap (which is only a couple of millimetres wider than the IDC).

mounted internally.jpg


The picture shows a BeebSCSI board mounted internally (with the internal bus adapter also attached).

This, of course, constrains the shape of the board... perhaps it's better to mount it elsewhere as per your design?

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flynnjs
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flynnjs » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:17 am

Ah, I had assumed the big "target" shapes were fiducial rather than mounting holes. I should have paid more attention.
I guess there are a few options:
1) Just put some wings back on, as mounting tabs, would also make space actual fids!
2) Combine with the other board. Doesn't sound sensible as this would wouldn't fit externally any more
3) Change the gender of the header on the other board and mate them back-to-back. The other board would need a re-layout to get the pins in the right order. I think the pair would be light enough to be self supporting.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:30 am

The internal bus adaptor board is designed with a female IDC; it plugs directly onto the main BeebSCSI board. It's so light that this is enough to firmly mate the two boards (i.e. the daughter board is only mounted in place by the IDC).

There were a number of reasons why I separated the two boards; the main one being that most people will not require VFS emulation (since it is a read-only SCSI system suitable only for use with the (experimental) AIV work) - the other being to keep the size down and make BeebSCSI as small as possible.

Internal mounting is also why I put the SD card at the narrow, far-end of the board - this way, when internally mounted, you can still get it in and out easily (hence the gap between the back of the board and the back of the Master). On my second dev machine I have the board mounted internally, but connected to the external bus via a cable running under the motherboard - it's pretty neat looking.

On another note; the reason for the odd 'upside down' (mirrored) mounting of the pin headers and IDC was to reduce the number of required vias (as these are hard to do when hand making a board - and I couldn't use the IDC pins as vias, since hand-made boards are not through-plated). It would be better (as per your redesign) to have all of the components, headers and other components all on the same side.

I've looked at this board way too many times to see the woods through the trees :) So I welcome your fresh-eyes on it!

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danielj
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby danielj » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:55 am

Is it possible with the board internally mounted to flip it between standard ADFS and VFS modes?

d.

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:16 am

Just a quick squint at the new layout, with some comments: The Ground to IC2 and the connector look as though they need beefing up, unless there's a ground plane? I'd also opt for a second Tantalum - it looks like one would fit above IC2.

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:19 am

Is it possible with the board internally mounted to flip it between standard ADFS and VFS modes?


BeebSCSI requires an additional IC when used with the internal 1MHz bus that is provided by a daughterboard. The technicalities are covered in the documentation:

http://www.domesday86.com/?page_id=409

Basically the internal bus is 5V CMOS (whereas the external bus is 5Vs TTL) - this presents an issue since the CPLD is 3.3Vs (fine for 5V TTL - not so for 5V CMOS). The daughterboard also raises pin 26 of the IDC to 5Vs; this tells BeebSCSI to use AIV SCSI emulation (as the host adapter boards are not the same). The current software build supports this completely... You can mount and run a Domesday VFS LUN image :) Of course, BeebSCSI will not respond to the F-Codes needed for video support (it 'simply' reads them from the SCSI commands and copies them to the serial port - which is why it's there). BeebSCSI also supports the host reading F-code responses... there is a serial ring-buffer that stores incoming serial bytes and then sends them to the host if a SCSI F-Code read command is received. It's 'experimental' as I haven't finished the VP415 emulation that connects to BeebSCSI via the serial header.

There is another 'possible' use-case though... One could modify an ADFS ROM to function with the internal bus. Since there doesn't need to be any floppy support, you could use all 8 LUNs (like VFS does) - giving you 4GBs of internal LUN images... BeebSCSI already supports 8 LUNs, and (even though VFS doesn't do it) BeebSCSI allows reading and writing on the internal bus. I deliberately designed it this way; as an open-source project others might want to have a stab at this (others that understand the ADFS ROM better than I).

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby flynnjs » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:18 am

simoni wrote:The internal bus adaptor board is designed with a female IDC; it plugs directly onto the main BeebSCSI board.


I've just studied your installation photo and just seen that. I wonder whether the
internal bus adaptor could slide directly onto the motherboard pins and use a
long screw going into hole near where you have your BeebSCSI power and then
the mini BeebSCSI board sit atop that.
I'm just thinking about avoiding crimping all those motherboard connectors.
I know I wouldn't have the patience that you have clearly exercised with that
beautiful installation!

daveejhitchins wrote:The Ground to IC2 and the connector look as though they need beefing up, unless there's a ground plane?
I'd also opt for a second Tantalum - it looks like one would fit above IC2.


The whole of the under side is GND apart from the few blue tracks you can see.
There is a decoupling cap, C12, next to IC2. I'm sure I could squeeze another
bulk cap on there but I was trying to make as few changes to the original schematic
as that is a known quantity. The bulk cap would need to go on the hot side of
the FET.

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:03 pm

I'm totally open to any ideas; the current board design was the result of requirements coming from the prototyping work rather than a final production board design.

It's best if the pin footprints aren't altered though; otherwise there will need to be multiple versions of firmware for different boards. I tried to match up the footprint of the CPLD as much as possible against the AVR; so I don't believe there is much more footprint optimisation to do.

To help fuel your ideas I decided to take the internal BeebSCSI board out of my master and photograph it for you (including the daughter board). I also popped the top off my Master 512 and took a pic of the internally mounted (but externally connected) board so you can see all the configurations I considered.

Edit> As a side note; you don't have to place a copyright to me on your design. The board is Attribution CC-BY 4.0; the only requirement is that you attribute the original design to me... your new design is yours (and I would encourage you to use the same license, or the share-alike version):

"Attribution CC BY -This license lets others distribute, remix, tweak, and build upon your work, even commercially, as long as they credit you for the original creation. This is the most accommodating of licenses offered. Recommended for maximum dissemination and use of licensed materials."

IMG_7517.jpg

IMG_7508.jpg

IMG_7507.jpg

IMG_7506.jpg

IMG_7504.jpg

IMG_7494.jpg


/Simon

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:22 pm

A quick follow up on BeebSCSI... I've finished writing a (very incomplete) VP415 emulator that works via a serial connection to BeebSCSI (just to prove and test the F-code support). You can see it working in the following youtube video (running the National and Community South Domesday discs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhliQ5scHzY

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paulv
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby paulv » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:42 pm

Like I said on Facebook earlier this is awesome work.

The Domesday system is always something I've wanted to play with and I've been lucky enough to do so on a couple of occasions over the years but you need months to be able to go through it all and truly explore it. Your project will finally give that chance to a much wider audience and it's to be applauded.

I was reading on Wikipedia about the copyright issues that go along with the Domesday discs. Apparently, it won't be until 2090 that the content of those discs falls out of copyright but I think that the preservation of the data and ability for wider access to it (even if it's still in a niche setting) far outweighs the copyright issues.

After all, it was sort of a crowd sourced effort where the BBC curated the information provided and most of the contributors (especially the school children) wouldn't have been thinking of copyright disclaimers when they produced their content. Couple that with the fact that the original hardware is getting so scarce there won't be anything to fight for regarding copyright in a few years without preservation efforts such as this, I think anyone that would be in a position to exercise their rights would simply be grateful that their contribution has been updated and preserved for at least another 30-40 years.

ISTR reading that the BBC didn't get copyright waivers from all their contributors (and don't know who many of the contributors are) so even they are on slightly dodgy ground when it comes to using and publishing the data these days.


Paul

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simoni
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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby simoni » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:19 pm

I just got the first test board together using the professionally made PCB... Looks really nice :)

top.jpg


bottom.jpg


I've also implemented an SD card based bootloader for the board. Now you can upgrade the AVR firmware by simply popping in an SD card with the firmware image on it; should make in-field upgrades far easier since you won't require an AVR programmer.

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Re: Domesday86 Project

Postby BeebMaster » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:32 pm

paulv wrote:
ISTR reading that the BBC didn't get copyright waivers from all their contributors (and don't know who many of the contributors are) so even they are on slightly dodgy ground when it comes to using and publishing the data these days.


Paul

Well I think all this agonising over copyright is bunk.

In the first place, I'm pretty sure in the instruction book for the Domesday Collection software (hopefully someone who has a copy can check) there is a general waiver at the back along the lines of, if you send in a floppy disc to the BBC then you relinquish all your rights over the contents.

In the second place, who cares or is going to care? Publish and be damned I say! And wait to see how many schoolkids sue you. Nobody will.
Image


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