BBC Master Cartridges

discussion of beeb/electron applications, languages, utils and educational s/w
User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK

BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Pernod » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:57 pm

Were there any other cartridges for the Master other than the Demo available in the archive?

Just seems odd that carts were produced for the Electron, but nothing for the Master.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5141
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby danielj » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:19 pm

I think Overview (extension to the built in view/viewsheet) was a cartridge?

d.

User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Pernod » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:38 pm

danielj wrote:I think Overview (extension to the built in view/viewsheet) was a cartridge?

d.

Yep, found a photo. Is there a dump anywhere?

Edit: Found the roms here.
Last edited by Pernod on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:46 pm

Pernod wrote:Were there any other cartridges for the Master other than the Demo available in the archive?
If you mean Acorn produced, I'm not sure, however, P.R.E.S./ACP made as many products that we could work with the Master: ABR, ARA ABE to name what I can remember.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Pernod » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:02 am

daveejhitchins wrote:If you mean Acorn produced, I'm not sure, however, P.R.E.S./ACP made as many products that we could work with the Master: ABR, ARA ABE to name what I can remember.

Dave H :D

I mean software releases, The P.R.E.S. carts were mainly expansion devices.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby daveejhitchins » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:55 am

AH! Clear . . .What about the Language cartridges then?

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Arcadian
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 12:16 pm
Contact:

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Arcadian » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:03 am

In addition to the Overview carts ...

The VFS rom for the AIV was available in cartridge format:
Cart_AIV.jpg


Then there was technoCAD by Technomatic:
Cart_technoCAD.jpg


And also the Smart Cartridge, produced by Care and available from Morley Electronics (which featured a button on the top for capturing the memory):
Cart_SmartCartridge.jpg
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk

Image
ABug Leicestershire (17-19 November 2017)

User avatar
BeebMaster
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:59 pm
Location: Lost in the BeebVault!
Contact:

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby BeebMaster » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:15 pm

Arcadian wrote:In addition to the Overview carts ...

The VFS rom for the AIV was available in cartridge format:
Cart_AIV.jpg


Aaah! I knew I'd seen a photo of a Domesday System once upon a time with an AIV branded ROM cartridge. I'd always wondered what it was for.

I still wonder - VFS went inside in socket 8, what was the purpose of having it in an external ROM cartridge?
Image

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5141
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby danielj » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:16 pm

If you had something else in socket 8? :D

*scarpers*

d.

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 6680
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby 1024MAK » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:40 pm

Oh, what a surprise that software cartridges were not common. I presume the situation was the same as with some other computer manufacturers - they were too expensive compared to the magnetic media of the day (cassette tapes and 5¼ disks).

Generally speaking, only games systems that (as standard) could not use cassette tapes or disks had a wide range of ROM cartridges.

On the ZX Spectrum, Sinclair's Interface Two could take ROM cartridges. But only ten ROM cartridge titles were ever released. Despite the loading times of tape and millions of Spectrums having been sold. These ROM carts were limited to 16k bytes of code. Of course if you had a 48k model, you could load around 40k of machine code from tape.

The other factor against ROM cartridges from back in the day, was the memory limit imposed by the largest ROM that could be addressed by the CPU on a cart. Okay, on a Master, this was less of a problem as you could have two 16k banks.

And yes, some ROM's for Beeb's got around this by using a PAL to enable a larger ROM (EPROM) to live in a 16k memory map, but this added to the cost.

I do still think that ROM cartridge slots back then were under used. And by the looks of a lot of "in-use" machines, still are.

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby jgharston » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:52 pm

1024MAK wrote:On the ZX Spectrum, Sinclair's Interface Two could take ROM cartridges. But only ten ROM cartridge titles were ever released. Despite the loading times of tape and millions of Spectrums having been sold. These ROM carts were limited to 16k bytes of code. Of course if you had a 48k model, you could load around 40k of machine code from tape.
The main problem with the Spectrum ROM cartridge system was that the ROM replaced the entirety of the on-board system ROM, so if you wanted to interact with the user in absolutely any way you had to replicate all the system ROM I/O functions.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
BeebMaster
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:59 pm
Location: Lost in the BeebVault!
Contact:

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby BeebMaster » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:08 pm

danielj wrote:If you had something else in socket 8? :D

Yes, thank-you, I had thought of that. But I get the feeling that Domesday System owners weren't your adventurous type of inside tinkerers, since 99.9999% of them were libraries or schools, so I wonder who exactly would have opened up a Master AIV in 1986 and removed the VFS ROM to put something else in its place and then put VFS in a cartridge?

The problem I have always had with cartridges is that eventually they get clogged up with dust and start causing random problems. I had to stop using cartridges with Station 200 eventually as they were making my Econet server too unreliable. In the end I put the ROMs inside, and had to sacrifice some of the sideways RAM but it solved the problem.
Image

User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Pernod » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:32 am

Arcadian wrote:In addition to the Overview carts ...

The VFS rom for the AIV was available in cartridge format:

Then there was technoCAD by Technomatic:

And also the Smart Cartridge, produced by Care and available from Morley Electronics (which featured a button on the top for capturing the memory)


Thanks for the feedback. Was the VFS cartridge the same ROM that's available elsewhere?

Are the technoCAD and Smart ROMs available anywhere?

Would be nice to have all official cartridge released ROMs available here.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Pernod » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:20 am

From various brochures it looks like the full list of Acornsoft cartridges for the Master is:
SQB30 Acornsoft Overview
SQL06 Acornsoft Logo Master cartridge
SQL14 Acornsoft Lisp Master cartridge
SQL23 Acornsoft Master Termulator
SQL18 Acornsoft ISO-Pascal Master cartridge

Can anyone confirm whether these are same/different from the Electron cartridges?
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, etc.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 5141
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby danielj » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:24 am

Different codes:
SCL02 Acornsoft Lisp Electron cartridge
SCL06 Acornsoft Logo A full implementation on ROM Cartridge
SCL18 Acornsoft ISO-Pascal Electron cartridge

Must admit, never seen the Master versions of the languages!

d.

User avatar
myelin
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:17 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby myelin » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:00 am

Incidentally, does anybody know why the R/nW line was put in a different place on the Master and Electron? All the other important signals seem to be in the same place, so I assume they were intended to be compatible.
SW/EE from New Zealand, now in San Francisco: http://myelin.nz/
Having fun making hardware projects for the Electron!
So far: 32k flash cart, USB cart interface, 3-cart expansion, Elk PiTubeDirect. Later: Dual ported ram cart.

crj
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 4:58 pm

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby crj » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:21 am

BeebMaster wrote:
danielj wrote:If you had something else in socket 8? :D

Yes, thank-you, I had thought of that. But I get the feeling that Domesday System owners weren't your adventurous type of inside tinkerers, since 99.9999% of them were libraries or schools, so I wonder who exactly would have opened up a Master AIV in 1986 and removed the VFS ROM to put something else in its place and then put VFS in a cartridge?

I bet a significant proportion of Domesday Systems were on Econet, in which case ANFS would go in socket 8.

crj
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 4:58 pm

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby crj » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:24 am

1024MAK wrote:I do still think that ROM cartridge slots back then were under used. And by the looks of a lot of "in-use" machines, still are.

Well, I've done my bit: my Master Turbo is stocked up with a couple of 32K EPROMs on Solidisk bare-PCB cartridges.

User avatar
geraldholdsworth
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:42 pm
Location: Inverness, Scotland
Contact:

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby geraldholdsworth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:22 am

One thing that annoys me about the Master Cartridges is that if you plug an EPROM into them, they then don't fit too well into the slots. They're fine with 'normal' ROMs.

I also have a couple of Technomatic cartridges which accept RAM chips - both have 2x16K RAM, meaning I can get up to 8 banks of S/WAYS RAM.

The best one is the WE cartridge - they must've had the same issue as me, as they raised the ROM sockets above the slots.
Gerald Holdsworth
Repton Resource Page
www.reptonresourcepage.co.uk

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:31 am

I use Low Profile IC sockets in my cartridge projects - User choice when ordering! This allows EPROMs to be fitted.

I'm now working on a 3D printed case for all my cartridge boards :D

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
sydney
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:09 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby sydney » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:13 am

crj wrote:
1024MAK wrote:I do still think that ROM cartridge slots back then were under used. And by the looks of a lot of "in-use" machines, still are.

Well, I've done my bit: my Master Turbo is stocked up with a couple of 32K EPROMs on Solidisk bare-PCB cartridges.


Me too. There is always at least one cartridge slot in use, normally two - one ABR and one ARA from RetroHardware. If I ever get round to having a custom master rom made this might change but I'll probably just find something else to put in them!

Boydie
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:25 am
Location: Sunny Wigan

Re: BBC Master Cartridges

Postby Boydie » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:48 am

I've permanently got a couple of cartridges in mine - one Acorn one containing the Overview roms, and a Peartree switchable 4-rom, with Bitstick, AMPLE, AMX mouse, and SmartSPI.

I do own the Master Logo cartridge, and several other Acorn cartridges which I got from Rory McCloy and are the ones he used for the Micro User review.


Return to “software: other”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests