Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

discussion of beeb/electron applications, languages, utils and educational s/w
User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:25 pm

I'm pulling my hair out . . . Oh! Hang on, I did that last week :lol:

Well, I've finally got round to using my DataCentre (external) and saving some of my discs! And . . . Stumped :oops:

I can see RCOPY but can't get it working. IMPORT and EXPORT work on the RFS. So, what am I missing or doing wrong?

I'll continue to read the manual just in case I've missed something.

As in the title, I'm trying to copy, to SSD, an ADFS disc from drive 1 to the RFS or better still straight to the USB drive 5 on my Master 128.

Dave H :oops:
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
flaxcottage
Posts: 2739
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby flaxcottage » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:28 pm

When I have been doing this I have used ADT and the *XFER command.

Works a treat. *XFER from ADFS to RAM then use *EXPORT to USB.

I have to manually change directories if needed. Go into the directory you want to copy on the ADFS disc or the datacentre CF disc if you have one.

Do a *RAM and select the datacentre RAM drive (0-3), e.g. *DRIVE 0

Give the command *XFER -ADFS -RAM and hey-presto all the files copy from the currently selected ADFS directory to the currently selected RAM disc. Then do *RAM and *EXPORT <filename>.SSD and the job is done.

Hope that helps.

John
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer, HP-16C programmer's calculator

User avatar
flaxcottage
Posts: 2739
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby flaxcottage » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:29 pm

Bet somebody knows a better way. :wink:
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer, HP-16C programmer's calculator

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:08 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:As in the title, I'm trying to copy, to SSD, an ADFS disc from drive 1 to the RFS or better still straight to the USB drive 5 on my Master 128.
While all disk images are just purely a continuous stream of the bytes in the sectors holding the file system, an SSD is usually the disk image file format used to store a DFS-type disk, not an ADFS-type disk. ADFS disk images usually have a '.adf' extension, and transfer tools may require the correct extension.

You could use MkImage, the following commands should so it:
(do *ADFS if not already selected)
*CHAIN "(path to MkImage).MkImage -ramfs-:5.name/adf $ -fs adfs -r"

That will create an ADFS disk images called name/adf on the ramfs drive 5 (the USB device) containing all the files in the ADFS directory $ downwards.

Alternatively, DiskToImg will image the disk, doing a sector-by-sector copy:
*CHAIN "(path to DiskToImg).DiskToImg 0 -ramfs-:5.name/adf 640K"

This will create a 640K ADFS disk image called name/adf on the ramfs drive 5 continaing a sector-by-sector copy of the disk in drive 0.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:53 pm

flaxcottage wrote:When I have been doing this I have used ADT and the *XFER command.

Works a treat. *XFER from ADFS to RAM then use *EXPORT to USB.

I have to manually change directories if needed. Go into the directory you want to copy on the ADFS disc or the datacentre CF disc if you have one.

Do a *RAM and select the datacentre RAM drive (0-3), e.g. *DRIVE 0

Give the command *XFER -ADFS -RAM and hey-presto all the files copy from the currently selected ADFS directory to the currently selected RAM disc. Then do *RAM and *EXPORT <filename>.SSD and the job is done.

Hope that helps.

John

John:

Thanks for that . . . I tried it and it would have worked but for the ADFS file name length . . . Darn! I'm going to try JG's method. Looks good.

@Mark (Retroclinic) Any chance of a 9 character RAM filing system, based on ADFS?
Or, maybe I'm still not seeing the whole picture?

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:59 pm

jgharston wrote:This will create a 640K ADFS disk image called name/adf on the ramfs drive 5 continaing a sector-by-sector copy of the disk in drive 0.

JG: Thanks for the method, it'll save me hours of time changing filenames etc. I'll try it out tomorrow and feedback. But looks go to go :D

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:09 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:Thanks for that . . . I tried it and it would have worked but for the ADFS file name length
Are you trying to copy files to RAMFS or create a disk image on RAMFS? If you want to copy files from ADFS to RAMFS, use a file copying program such as TreeCopy.

daveejhitchins wrote:@Mark (Retroclinic) Any chance of a 9 character RAM filing system, based on ADFS?
Mark's RAMFS is purely DFS with RAM as the storage device instead of a disks, so all of it's structure and limitations are identical to DFS. Access to the raw USB device is purely the FAT filing system, which is 8+3, ie "filename.ext". That's the fundamental structure of the underlying device that is physically plugged in.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:27 am

jgharston wrote:
daveejhitchins wrote:Thanks for that . . . I tried it and it would have worked but for the ADFS file name length
Are you trying to copy files to RAMFS or create a disk image on RAMFS? If you want to copy files from ADFS to RAMFS, use a file copying program such as TreeCopy.
Hmmm . . . I'm trying to archive/back-up all the discs I have from BITD. How Stupid can one get? :oops: I hadn't realised that most (all?) of these 'transfer' programs only (?) deal with DFS! I think MartinB's board may provide a solution - just haven't had the time to complete the build and try it, as yet.

I started off, last year sometime, with a GOSDC for my Elk. When used I had lots of 'disc-errors' so thought most/all of my discs were goosed! However, I could verify a disc but still not get it to work. Could be because I'm using it at the end of an Acorn Plus 3 instead of straight out of the Elk? Anyhow I gave up on that. Might give it another try as it does say it works with all filing systems! In the mean time I moved on to EUPURS - but as above, not completed the project (MartinB will be disappointed - But he doesn't provide 'spare time' and I've overreached myself somewhat! :? ).

jgharston wrote:
daveejhitchins wrote:@Mark (Retroclinic) Any chance of a 9 character RAM filing system, based on ADFS?
Mark's RAMFS is purely DFS with RAM as the storage device instead of a disks, so all of it's structure and limitations are identical to DFS. Access to the raw USB device is purely the FAT filing system, which is 8+3, ie "filename.ext". That's the fundamental structure of the underlying device that is physically plugged in.
Yes, I do understand all of that (do I? >>) - I thought that FAT32 (VFAT on steroids!) handles longer filenames?

In the mean-time I'll be trying your solutions, later today. that's assuming Mrs. H. hasn't made other plans for me, as often is the case :lol:

I'm sure I'll get there in the end . . . ](*,) Just got to keep trying. One last thought. If I have a disc that has some 'unused' and corrupted sectors e.g. fails verification, then I'd be better off using a transfer utility that copies files and NOT sectors, as John suggested above. It would mean, however, that I would have to change some of the filenames. Not a problem for MOST of my discs - some of them, though, have !BOOT files and loaders . . . I'll have to deal with those, I suppose!

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
flaxcottage
Posts: 2739
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby flaxcottage » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:31 am

Yep no way round the difference in file name length between DFS and ADFS. And don't forget ADFS allows more files per disc than DFS and they can be bigger than a whole DFS disc too.

The capacity of an ADFS disc is bigger, so more than one SSD might be needed to copy all the files.

Even if you copy the files they probably will not run unless the code is edited to reflect changed file names and directory sources.

Bon chance!
- John

Currently running Level 4 Econet with BBC B, BBC B+ 128K, Master 128K, 4Mb A3000, 4Mb A3020, 4Mb A4000, 4Mb A5000 dual FDD; UK101; HP41CX setup; Psion 3a, 3mx and 5mx; Z88; TI-58c, TI-59 and printer, HP-16C programmer's calculator

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4514
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby MartinB » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:44 pm

Dave H wrote:I moved on to EUPURS - but as above, not completed the project
UPURS doesn't support ADFS, mostly because I hate it as much as Colin does. If there was a significant demand, there's no reason why I couldn't produce an ADFS version of the suite though. (Apart from the usual time and inclination of course :roll: :wink:)

and wrote:MartinB will be disappointed - But he doesn't provide 'spare time' and I've overreached myself somewhat!
Ok Dave, you've lost me...? :-k :-?

User avatar
retroclinic
Posts: 3015
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: East Riding of Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby retroclinic » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:07 pm

The other reason the USB saide of DC doesn't support ADFS, is because it has the CF system. I saw little point in providing a RAM filing system for ADFS, when the CF system is effectively one large floppy, and is almost as fast as a RAM drive anyway. I do agree that a "built in" way of copying and imaging ADFS discs and file transfer to/from USB would be good, but it would mean a second ROM, and other utilities, such as JGHs excellent stuff, and the existing XFER from ADT do the job.

Mark.
Image

User avatar
paulv
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:37 pm
Location: Leicestershire
Contact:

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby paulv » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:06 pm

retroclinic wrote:and is almost as fast as a RAM drive anyway.


When I was doing some performance testing and timing how long it took to assemble Kermit, it turned out that using the CF card was faster than the virtual discs provided by Datacentre...

I actually ran these tests in Nov. 2011 using the Lancs assembler and compiled using the same set up three times each to derive an average assembly time

Assembling Kermit from RAM using virtual DFS floppies and the ReCo6502 @ 14.7MHz

Avg. assembly time: 2m 38s

Assembling Kermit from Compact Flash using ADFS and the ReCo6502 @ 14.7MHz

Avg. assembly time: 2m 27s

Paul

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:17 pm

MartinB wrote:
DaveH wrote:MartinB will be disappointed - But he doesn't provide 'spare time' and I've overreached myself somewhat!
Ok Dave, you've lost me...? :-k :-?
DaveH wrote:In the mean time I moved on to EUPURS - but as above, not completed the project
e.g. a half built board! Where I suspect all other boards delivered have been built and working. I keep meaning to finish off the build, but . . . As I said I could do with you completing you time machine project . . . You did start it, didn't you :lol:

Re ADFS . . . I'm only just beginning to realise the 'strong' feelings against this filing system - Just don't understand it?? Is it because it's not 'simple'?? Seriously I'd like to hear the pros & cons between the two.

I'd have thought that as the Elks 'native' filing system (i.e. it's first) was ADFS then people would be supporting it! Oh well, strange world :?

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3362
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby richardtoohey » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:45 pm

Page at &1D00, corruption if you didn't disable the flashing cursor, snow if you were in the wrong screen mode, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Electron#ADFS_quirks

None of this is from personal experience - I was a BBC B DFS 0.9 user BITD ...

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:54 pm

richardtoohey wrote:Page at &1D00, corruption if you didn't disable the flashing cursor, snow if you were in the wrong screen mode, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Electron#ADFS_quirks

None of this is from personal experience - I was a BBC B DFS 0.9 user BITD ...

I'll have a read, tomorrow . . . :D But quickly . . . We can fix all that now, can't we?

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
retroclinic
Posts: 3015
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: East Riding of Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby retroclinic » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:02 pm

paulv wrote:
retroclinic wrote:and is almost as fast as a RAM drive anyway.


When I was doing some performance testing and timing how long it took to assemble Kermit, it turned out that using the CF card was faster than the virtual discs provided by Datacentre...

I actually ran these tests in Nov. 2011 using the Lancs assembler and compiled using the same set up three times each to derive an average assembly time

Assembling Kermit from RAM using virtual DFS floppies and the ReCo6502 @ 14.7MHz

Avg. assembly time: 2m 38s

Assembling Kermit from Compact Flash using ADFS and the ReCo6502 @ 14.7MHz

Avg. assembly time: 2m 27s

Paul


The time differential there is most likely due to DFS workspace access. As RamFS uses onboard DC memory for workspace, it has to switch between that workspace and the main Disc Image space constantly to keep track of things. ADFS uses main memory workspace, so just simply streams bytes straight to the CF without having to switch memory pages. RamFS also has to keep paged access to it's ram, but that is only a couple of extra instructions every 256 bytes.

Mark.
Image

User avatar
richardtoohey
Posts: 3362
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby richardtoohey » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:31 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
richardtoohey wrote:Page at &1D00, corruption if you didn't disable the flashing cursor, snow if you were in the wrong screen mode, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Electron#ADFS_quirks

None of this is from personal experience - I was a BBC B DFS 0.9 user BITD ...

I'll have a read, tomorrow . . . :D But quickly . . . We can fix all that now, can't we?

Dave H :D
I think so, I'm just learning about all this now ... I think the initial ADFS release might have upset a few folk ... some on this list ... get the asbestos pants out! :lol:

There's definitely page @&E00 improvements, not sure about the other items on the list - because of the way the Electron works in some modes (0-2) you are still going to get the snow, etc? (Could be talking out of my rear end by now ... so I'll stop here!)

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:00 am

richardtoohey wrote:I think so, I'm just learning about all this now ... I think the initial ADFS release might have upset a few folk ... some on this list ... get the asbestos pants out! :lol:

There's definitely page @&E00 improvements, not sure about the other items on the list - because of the way the Electron works in some modes (0-2) you are still going to get the snow, etc? (Could be talking out of my rear end by now ... so I'll stop here!)
The work that PRIME has done for the Acorn Plus 3 could be transferred to the New AP3/4, with his OK of course (?). Plus with the all 'fixes' that were included with Rob Northen's ROMs (ACP) there can't be many problems left?

Both the Acorn and P.R.E.S. Plus 3s could cope with external drives - meaning double sided 3.5" or 5.25" drives could be added. So I'm still struggling to understand all this. Didn't come first? And maybe your right about the initial problems causing 'resentment'? we'll see when folk start feeding back!

Maybe a case for a new thread!

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Matt Norman (BANNED)
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby Matt Norman (BANNED) » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:08 am

daveejhitchins wrote:Hmmm . . . I'm trying to archive/back-up all the discs I have from BITD. How Stupid can one get? :oops: I hadn't realised that most (all?) of these 'transfer' programs only (?) deal with DFS!

Suppose it's too late now, but you needed GoSDC mate :D. Straight to and from DFS and ADFS discs (even hard drives). No sweat.

User avatar
Matt Norman (BANNED)
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby Matt Norman (BANNED) » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:12 am

daveejhitchins wrote:I started off, last year sometime, with a GOSDC for my Elk. When used I had lots of 'disc-errors' so thought most/all of my discs were goosed! However, I could verify a disc but still not get it to work. Could be because I'm using it at the end of an Acorn Plus 3 instead of straight out of the Elk?

Oops. Should have read on. :oops:

Could try on a beeb instead, if you got one with ADFS wobblies.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:43 pm

Matt Norman wrote:
daveejhitchins wrote:I started off, last year sometime, with a GOSDC for my Elk. When used I had lots of 'disc-errors' so thought most/all of my discs were goosed! However, I could verify a disc but still not get it to work. Could be because I'm using it at the end of an Acorn Plus 3 instead of straight out of the Elk?

Oops. Should have read on. :oops:

Could try on a beeb instead, if you got one with ADFS wobblies.

I think my problem maybe my discs have bad sectors (with GOSDC). I can read and copy all the data from the disc but not verify it :? Need to look further at the GOSDC instructions. Does anyone know if you can use something like XCOPY with it? It'll be a a couple of days before I can get back into the workshop!

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Sat May 04, 2013 11:40 pm

I've read up and down on this thread and still am not sure exactly what you (think you) are trying to do.

You talk about copying to a SSD (a disk image) - so filenames are irrelevant. A disk image is simply, purely and exactly a byte-by-byte raw copy of a disk's sectors' data contents. So if those sectors happen to hold a disk cataloge, then that data will hold whatever filenames that disk catalogue happens to hold, whatever length they are.

You talk about filename lengths - so you much be copying files, not creating disk images. If you're copying from DFS to RAMFS things are simple as RAMFS is a DFS-a-like filing system. *TREECOPY DFS::0 RAMFS::4 would do that.

You then also talk about ADFS, and I can't work out if you're talking about ADFS disk images or ADFS filing system. But you also talk about RAMFS, so I can only assume you're talking about creating ADFS disk images where the disk image files are stored on a RAMFS drive. Again, filename lengths are irrelelevant, they are inside the disk image as annonymous data.

(all?) of these 'transfer' programs only (?) deal with DFS!
No, "most" transfer programs will deal with all filing systems, as it's pointless having a file transfer program that only allows you to transfer files between DFS and DFS. There are built-in commands to do that - *COPY and *BACKUP.

It would help if you actually typed up word for word the commands you are using and the screen output, and described explicitly what is in various drives, as my mind-reading capabilities appear to be dying off as I get older.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun May 05, 2013 9:00 am

jgharston wrote:I've read up and down on this thread and still am not sure exactly what you (think you) are trying to do.

You talk about copying to a SSD (a disk image) - so filenames are irrelevant. A disk image is simply, purely and exactly a byte-by-byte raw copy of a disk's sectors' data contents. So if those sectors happen to hold a disk cataloge, then that data will hold whatever filenames that disk catalogue happens to hold, whatever length they are.

JG - OK . . . I'll try and clarify the situation. Point 1:- I have lots of discs, not counted but probably 200+. Point 2:- Most of them are ADFS with full length filenames (the DFS ones are easy, I'm just using ADTs XFER with Datacentre, but, of course there is the number of files and directories issue! - And, see point 3). Point 3:- A lot of them don't verify! However, most of the files, on those discs, are OK - hence the use of XFER!

So, I can't just image them - they just fail with disc errors! If I use Datacentre and XFER I need to change the filenames - on 200+ files !! Plus sort them out into groups of, what is it, 32 file groups? This is the bit I'm trying to avoid as I don't want to risk damaging those discs - I may only get the read-once chance!

I also have a failing hard drive in my A540 (I can get it to work if I keep it 'chilled' - or I can get into a clean-room and swap the platters with an identical unit, not my favourite plan but I have been 'practicing' on other duff drives!) I'd like to 'save' the contents of that too, as I'm not sure just what I have on there - It could be garbage or it could be more gems e.g. Heyley Software Games

There's been a lot of helpful suggestions, some of them I've not responded to (sorry for that folks). I'm trying to sort out which would be the best method - and getting swamped with the variety plus 'other' pressures that come with life (Mrs H. for one - there's always a list of other, more important, jobs to do - bless - and I know which side to put the butter on :wink: )

Are you beginning to see my problem?? Overload of 'try this method' from people who have used and understand their 'try this method' - I'm still trying to 'remember' things I knew 25+ years ago - so you've GOT to be patient with me and other members who ask, to some, stupid questions and get in reply 'but why don't you know' kind of answers . . . It can get VERY frustrating - Most times we need a little hand holding and guidance. Most times it's what is given! I may have started off badly by not explaining fully just what I was attempting. I probably have just about every piece of hardware there is to connect Acorn machines to the outside world and that's another point of overload. Too many!

I hope that sums-up my situation - e.g. I've no idea what the hell I'm doing and getting help from everyone and their dog - Just too much to try all at once :shock:

Enough - Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 6684
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby 1024MAK » Sun May 05, 2013 11:45 am

Or to put it short and sweet:-
You want a program that runs on Acorn hardware that can make a perfect image of dodgy ADFS disks and which can ignore errors if necessary.
And / or a program that runs on Acorn hardware that can copy files from dodgy ADFS disks and copy files to a DFS file system, that can automaticly cope with the filename length (renaming as it goes), DFS limitations and which can ignore errors if necessary.
Even better if they can be run like a batch file to semi-automate the process.

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun May 05, 2013 12:20 pm

1024MAK wrote:Or to put it short and sweet:-
You want a program that runs on Acorn hardware that can make a perfect image of dodgy ADFS disks and which can ignore errors if necessary.
And / or a program that runs on Acorn hardware that can copy files from dodgy ADFS disks and copy files to a DFS file system, that can automaticly cope with the filename length (renaming as it goes), DFS limitations and which can ignore errors if necessary.
Even better if they can be run like a batch file to semi-automate the process.

Mark

Yea! I know . . . I'm wanting too much and should get off my backside and sort it :? Frustration's a nasty emotion - get you into saying and doing (or not!) things you shouldn't.

But, I'm not wanting perfection . . . Really! If I can't recover all the files - then so be it! After all they're 25>30 years old and, probably, very tired. All I'm after is to be able to recover what I can - don't care where to or how - as long as they are safely off the 'dodgy' discs. I just don't know what I have!

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Sun May 05, 2013 8:00 pm

1: You want to create disk images of DFS disks, and store those disk images on a USB device, plugged into the DataCentre.
2: You want to create disk images of ADFS disks, and store those disk images on a USB device, plugged into the DataCentre.

1: is easy, use the *EXPORT command built into RAMFS:
>*DISK - select DFS
>*EXPORT -D0 IMAGE.SSD - image DFS drive 0 and store it in file IMAGE.SSD on the USB device
>*EXPORT -D02 IMAGE.DSD - image DFS drive 0 and 2 and store it in file IMAGE.DSD on the USB device

And, once you've done that, you can mount those disk images via RAMFS and reuse them:
>*RAM
>*IMPORT 0 IMAGE.ssd
>*CAT
...will list the imported disk

2: is fiddly. Now that I've worked out what you're trying to do. The USB "drive" in the DataCentre is only visible to *CAT, *EXPORT and *IMPORT, it doesn't work as a filing system, so you can't save/load to it. If you could, then MkImage ram::5.IMAGE.ADF disk::0 -type adfs would do it. You can copy files to the USB device using USBFiler:
CHAIN "USBFiler"
USB Filer 1.20
U>*ADFS
U>*MOUNT (whatever)
U>COPY BBC:(dirname) USB:(dirname)

...but, you'd lose all the BBC metadata, load/exec addresses, etc.

Give me a few hours and I can put some code together to do the equivalent of adding an 'ADFS' option to *EXPORT.
Last edited by jgharston on Sun May 05, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
sweh
Posts: 1833
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby sweh » Sun May 05, 2013 8:01 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:So, I can't just image them - they just fail with disc errors!

When I was imaging my DFS disks to MMC I did a lot of OSWORD &7F calls, track by track, and allowed it to skip bad tracks. (My disks were DSDD 320K per side, so didn't fit on SSD; I stored half the tracks on one SSD half on another, then merged the results).

The result may not be a perfect image, but it meant I could resurrect most of the data. http://sweh.spuddy.org/Beeb/imgdsk.html

Should be relatively easy for you to modify this for ADFS and Datacenter.

Once you have the (possibly corrupt) image then you can use a PC to try and manipulate it.
Rgds
Stephen

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Sun May 05, 2013 11:15 pm

jgharston wrote:2: You want to create disk images of ADFS disks, and store those disk images on a USB device, plugged into the DataCentre.
...
Give me a few hours and I can put some code together to do the equivalent of adding an 'ADFS' option to *EXPORT.

ADFStoUSB should do it, but it's hanging in the loop that writes data to the open file on the USB device. I'm getting tired, so I'll look at it again tomorrow.
Last edited by jgharston on Tue May 07, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 2663
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby jgharston » Mon May 06, 2013 8:49 pm

ADFStoUSB now works. Copies an ADFS disk as a disk image to an image file on a USB device plugged into the DataCentre. After trying several times it skips unreadable disk sectors and writes whatever it's managed to read.

At the moment it's a bit slow - copying a single 640K disk takes about 40 minutes - but I'll replace the BASIC code with machine code to speed it up.

Technical note: what the Vinculum documentation completely fails to mention is that when writing bytes to an open file all the bytes are echoed back to the host, and MUST be read back to stop the receive buffer filling up.
Last edited by jgharston on Tue May 07, 2013 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 3631
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham

Re: Datacentre Copy ADFS Disc to USB Question

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue May 07, 2013 6:52 am

JG - You ARE my hero . . . I've pile of disc ready to go - feed one in, get on with something else, have a cup of tea, do a job for Mrs. H (keeping her happy :D ) - change the disc =D> \:D/

Thank you - you will never know how much this is appreciated. =D>

Dave H :D

p.s. I could also use the time-between-discs to re-learn coding . . . Must be 20 odd years ago since I did any - even then it was only small bit to test my hardware.
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com


Return to “software: other”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests