A Little Quill Advice Please

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KayjayUK
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A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Firstly, the QuillA03 file available from http://8-bit.info/the-gilsoft-adventure-systems/ does it run directly on a BBc B or has it been modified to run on emulators? If there is a difference that is, I've never used any.

I have copied the file over to a disc and after booting it leaves the screen blank apart from *RUN Quill at the top of the screen, nothing else happens. The same happens if I just enter *RUN quill

Keith
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CMcDougall
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby CMcDougall » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:17 pm

ImageImageImage

KayjayUK
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:53 pm

CMcDougall wrote:http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7772&p=80917&hilit=quill+disk+disc#p80917

try the real one on the linky...


Strangely this is worse in a way, it leaves *RUN Quill as before but on the next line it reports Bad Command

There is clearly something amiss here with my computer not the software or it would have been reported before.

Keith
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lurkio
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:54 pm

KayjayUK wrote:Firstly, the QuillA03 file available from http://8-bit.info/the-gilsoft-adventure-systems/ does it run directly on a BBc B or has it been modified to run on emulators?

A03 is a later version than the one that Col linked to. A03 hasn't been modified to run on emulators because it didn't need to be. Version A03 should run on a real BBC Micro and also in any emulator. I've tested it.

KayjayUK wrote:I have copied the file over to a disc and after booting it leaves the screen blank apart from *RUN Quill at the top of the screen, nothing else happens. The same happens if I just enter *RUN quill

Did you copy the files in the A03 .SSD disc-image to a real floppy disc? How exactly did you do so?

:?:
Last edited by lurkio on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KayjayUK
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:11 pm

lurkio wrote:
KayjayUK wrote:Firstly, the QuillA03 file available from http://8-bit.info/the-gilsoft-adventure-systems/ does it run directly on a BBc B or has it been modified to run on emulators?

A03 is a later version than the one that Col linked to. A03 hasn't been modified to run only on emulators. (I'm not sure if that's even possible, actually!) Version A03 should run on a real BBC Micro and also in any emulator. I've tested it.

KayjayUK wrote:I have copied the file over to a disc and after booting it leaves the screen blank apart from *RUN Quill at the top of the screen, nothing else happens. The same happens if I just enter *RUN quill

Did you copy the files in the A03 .SSD disc-image to a real floppy disc? How exactly did you do so?

:?:

I've got the Datacentre issue 3 so I put the file on a memory stick, plugged it into the Datacentre and used
*DISC
*IMPORT -D0 QUA03

to which the process started, QUA03 is the filename I gave it. I have noticed that whenever I transfer and disc images this way the cursor sits on the number showing the sector being transferred sfter the transfer has finisnhed, I would expect a CRLF after that.

Finally I entered *OPT 4,3 All the files appear to be on the disc, there are 14 files including the !BOOT

Keith

Edit .

I have just *TYPEd the !BOOT files and it shows exactly what appears on the screen, as expected I suppose.
0001 BASIC
0002 MODE 7
0003 *RUN QUILL
0004 o

Line 4 is a lower case o not zero. This would appear to be a little wrong, is it possible for you to check your !BOOT file ?
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lurkio
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:19 pm

KayjayUK wrote:I've got the Datacentre issue 3 so I put the file on a memory stick, plugged it into the Datacentre and used
*DISC
*IMPORT -D0 QUA03

Looks fine. I normally include the .SSD extension in the filename of the disc-image in the IMPORT command (*IMPORT -D0 QUA03.SSD) because it never occurred to me to omit it. I wonder if that makes any difference for some odd reason? (I know it shouldn't.)

KayjayUK wrote:I have noticed that whenever I transfer and disc images this way the cursor sits on the number showing the sector being transferred sfter the transfer has finisnhed

That definitely doesn't sound right.

KayjayUK wrote:I would expect a CRLF after that.

Yes, me too! That's what normally happens for me.

KayjayUK wrote:Finally I entered *OPT 4,3

That shouldn't be necessary. The disc-image is already set to EXEC the !BOOT on Shift-Break.

KayjayUK wrote:All the files appear to be on the disc, there are 14 files including the !BOOT

There are actually 16 files on the disc! Admittedly, two of them are dummy-files with no content that both have the same name (C 1985).

KayjayUK wrote:I have just *TYPEd the !BOOT files and it shows exactly what appears on the screen, as expected I suppose.
0001 BASIC
0002 MODE 7
0003 *RUN QUILL
0004 o

Line 4 is a lower case o not zero. This would appear to be a little wrong, is it possible for you to check your !BOOT file ?

My !BOOT file doesn't include line 0004. Your !BOOT seems to be corrupted.

This is what you should be seeing:

:idea:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:32 pm

lurkio wrote:
KayjayUK wrote:I've got the Datacentre issue 3 so I put the file on a memory stick, plugged it into the Datacentre and used
*DISC
*IMPORT -D0 QUA03

Looks fine. I normally include the .SSD extension in the filename of the disc-image in the IMPORT command (*IMPORT -D0 QUA03.SSD) because it never occurred to me to omit it. I wonder if that makes any difference for some odd reason? (I know it shouldn't.)

KayjayUK wrote:I have noticed that whenever I transfer and disc images this way the cursor sits on the number showing the sector being transferred sfter the transfer has finisnhed

That definitely doesn't sound right.

KayjayUK wrote:I would expect a CRLF after that.

Yes, me too! That's what normally happens for me.

KayjayUK wrote:Finally I entered *OPT 4,3

That shouldn't be necessary. The disc-image is already set to EXEC the !BOOT on Shift-Break.

KayjayUK wrote:All the files appear to be on the disc, there are 14 files including the !BOOT

There are actually 16 files on the disc! Admittedly, two of them are dummy-files with no content that both have the same name (C 1985).

KayjayUK wrote:I have just *TYPEd the !BOOT files and it shows exactly what appears on the screen, as expected I suppose.
0001 BASIC
0002 MODE 7
0003 *RUN QUILL
0004 o

Line 4 is a lower case o not zero. This would appear to be a little wrong, is it possible for you to check your !BOOT file ?

My !BOOT doesn't include line 0004.

This is what you should be getting:

:idea:


The disc needs to be set to EXEC in my case.

I tried the !BOOT file without line 4, I thought it shouldn't be there, it just leaves the drive spinning, it's trying to find something to run in QUILL I would have thought. Maybe my file is corrupt ? Seems odd though. I will delete all QUILL references I have and download A00 and A03 again. Is QUILL.E00 the same as A00 to me it sounds like a tape image loading at E00 but I've seen a reference to disc associated with it somewhere.

I'll try the downloads again but I fear they will turn out the same, could you image yours and put them up for me to d/l ?

I don't get all the questioning about drives, just a blank screen

Keith
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:42 pm

KayjayUK wrote:The disc needs to be set to EXEC in my case.

It shouldn't need to be. You should just be able to download the A03 disc-image from 8-bit.info, *IMPORT it to a floppy with your DataCentre, and then Shift-Break (or *EXEC !BOOT ).

Have you tried running it from a virtual RAM drive in the DataCentre? *IMPORT -0 QUA03.SSD

KayjayUK wrote:I tried the !BOOT file without line 4, I thought it shouldn't be there, it just leaves the drive spinning, it's trying to find something to run in QUILL I would have thought. Maybe my file is corrupt ?

I strongly suspect that it is, yes!

KayjayUK wrote:Is QUILL.E00 the same as A00 to me it sounds like a tape image loading at E00 but I've seen a reference to disc associated with it somewhere.

I vaguely remember that E00 was the version that was up on 8-bit.info before A03 was found. I think E00 was a tape-to-disc hack of The Quill, and therefore not a true "native" disc version.

KayjayUK wrote:I'll try the downloads again but I fear they will turn out the same, could you image yours and put them up for me to d/l ?

This is the .SSD I'm using -- I downloaded it from 8-bit.info (just like you did!):

:idea:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:07 pm

Well, using your file has created a difference, it now boots up and ends with the screen showing
(c) Gilsoft 1985
Do you have a dual drive? Smith
>-

As you can see it asks about the drive then it tries to enter part of the copyright message adding the end of the authors name as the reply for the question about dual drives ... I wanna kick something !

Keith
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:13 pm

KayjayUK wrote:Well, using your file has created a difference, it now boots up and ends with the screen showing
(c) Gilsoft 1985
Do you have a dual drive? Smith
>-

As you can see it asks about the drive then it tries to enter part of the copyright message adding the end of the authors name as the reply for the question about dual drives

Is this with your DataCentre? Something's deeply wrong here.

Have you tried running version A03 from a virtual RAM drive in the DataCentre? *IMPORT -0 QUA03.SSD

Have you been able to successfully *IMPORT to floppy and then boot any other disc-images before?

What are the details of your Beeb? Is it a Model B? What ROMs have you got in which sockets? What types of disc-drives and other peripherals have you got?

:?:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:28 pm

lurkio wrote:
KayjayUK wrote:Well, using your file has created a difference, it now boots up and ends with the screen showing
(c) Gilsoft 1985
Do you have a dual drive? Smith
>-

As you can see it asks about the drive then it tries to enter part of the copyright message adding the end of the authors name as the reply for the question about dual drives

Is this with your DataCentre? Something's deeply wrong here.

Have you tried running version A03 from a virtual RAM drive in the DataCentre? *IMPORT -0 QUA03.SSD

Have you been able to successfully *IMPORT and then boot other disc-images before?

What are the details of your Beeb? What ROMs have you got in which sockets?

:?:

I haven't done much transferring really, only just got the datacentre. I think they've been successful, it's mainly been bringing over ROM images to burn into ROM, the ROMs seem to be running happily.

Running the files in drive 0 of RAM has the same effect, as before, Smith in the reply.
Your !boot file contains ODE7 then *RUN QUILL in RAM, when I viewed yours on disc it has ASIC then MODE 7 etc.

My ROMS

4 Exmon 2 1.03
5 Floppywise 2.3
7 HCR ROM Programmer 1.4a
8 Disc Doctor 1.1
11 Watford DDFS
10 RAMFS
13 Z80 BASIC
12 ROMAS X-Assembler
Keith
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:38 pm

Are you able to successfully download and run A03 in an emulator like BeebEm? (That's before you even try to transfer the .SSD to a USB drive.)

KayjayUK wrote:I haven't done much transferring really, only just got the datacentre. I think they've been successful, it's mainly been bringing over ROM images to burn into ROM, the ROMs seem to be running happily.

Try downloading and *IMPORTing any .SSD disc-image from http://bbcmicro.co.uk to see if you can actually successfully boot any disc-image at all. (But try running the .SSD in BeebEm first.)

KayjayUK wrote:Running the files in drive 0 of RAM has the same effect, as before, Smith in the reply.
Your !boot file contains ODE7 then *RUN QUILL in RAM, when I viewed yours on disc it has ASIC then MODE 7 etc.

Very confusing. I'm not sure if you're making typos there or if that's literally what your !BOOTs say (i.e. "ODE7" and "ASIC")!

KayjayUK wrote:4 Exmon 2 1.03
5 Floppywise 2.3
7 HCR ROM Programmer 1.4a
8 Disc Doctor 1.1
11 Watford DDFS
10 RAMFS
13 Z80 BASIC
12 ROMAS X-Assembler
Keith

That's a lot of ROMs. Can you try removing (or disabling) all except the essential ones (i.e. DDFS and RamFS)?

:?:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:53 pm

This gets weirder and weirder, taken all ROMs out apart from those two. I reformatted the disc with Watford DFS instead of Disc Doctor, no difference to the problem except when I formatted in DD it just gave garbage when booting Quill, single density and it's the same or rather it clears the screen and leaves *RUN QUILL at the top and nothing else.

Incidentally the !BOOT file is getting less and less each time I import it to the disc, the first line which was BASIC is now just C

This has to be down to corruption somewhere. I've never tried transferring files from the PC by serial cable but if I did it may prove the datacentre or rather prove it causing the problem. Do you know how I go about transferring by serial port ? I have a cable I bought from Sprow I think it was ages and ages ago, It has the domino plug on it.

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 am

KayjayUK wrote:This gets weirder and weirder, taken all ROMs out apart from those two. I reformatted the disc with Watford DFS instead of Disc Doctor, no difference to the problem except when I formatted in DD it just gave garbage when booting Quill, single density and it's the same or rather it clears the screen and leaves *RUN QUILL at the top and nothing else.

Can you try using a standard Acorn DFS instead of Watford DDFS?

KayjayUK wrote:Incidentally the !BOOT file is getting less and less each time I import it to the disc, the first line which was BASIC is now just C

Madness!

KayjayUK wrote:This has to be down to corruption somewhere. I've never tried transferring files from the PC by serial cable but if I did it may prove the datacentre or rather prove it causing the problem. Do you know how I go about transferring by serial port ? I have a cable I bought from Sprow I think it was ages and ages ago, It has the domino plug on it.

It's been a while since I did a serial transfer! And that was BBC-to-PC (not PC-to-BBC). I found some details for BBC-to-PC serial transfers here (but I'm not 100% sure that the XFER prog is what you need because I don't know whether it can do PC-to-BBC):

:?:

Btw, it's probably an obvious point, but it just occurred to me that if your DataCentre really is somehow corrupting everything it transfers from USB sticks, then all the ROM-images you transferred to blow to EPROM are probably corrupted too!

:!:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:23 pm

I am trying serial transfer to see if corruption is occurring during the transfer with the Datacentre though I think that highly unlikely the serial method will prove the fact.

I have a serial cable that I got ( I think ) from Sprow and I'm using Xfer51 which I assume is the latest iteration. I followed the initial instructions and got the BASIC program over to the Beeb from PC and saved it as a BASIC file on my drive 0. I left the settings as they were set initially, 1200 baud and 8-0-1, that was all I changed in fact the speed was all I changed but I ensured the protocol was correct.

Next part was to try a transfer PC to BBC B, I used command T whereupon I was asked for a filename, I entered it, I had it in the Xfer folder for simplicity, it then asked for a drive number 0-3, I assumed it was going to transfer directly to the floppy on drive 0. After pressing ENTER it hung for a few seconds and then said 'Problem changing to DFS' and hung, the BBC did nothing.

I'm using the Watford DDFS 1.54T, do I need to be using an 8271 and standard DFS ROM?

Keith
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:19 pm

KayjayUK wrote:I'm using the Watford DDFS 1.54T, do I need to be using an 8271 and standard DFS ROM?

A brief scan of the Xfer documentation suggests that Xfer should be able to work with the standard Acorn ADFS, which is 1770-compatible. But I've never had or used a 1770 Model B (and therefore I've never used ADFS in a Model B), and I can't test this myself.

:(

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:50 pm

OK so the W.E. DFS will work ok with Xfer.

Does anyone have any ideas as to why it should hang on the Beeb after the PC asks for a filename and drive for transferring to with the message ' Problem changing to DFS' ?

Keith
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:31 pm

KayjayUK wrote:OK so the W.E. DFS will work ok with Xfer.

Are you referring to the Watford DDFS which you mentioned earlier? What makes you say that it "will work ok with Xfer"? (I ask because you then go on to describe an error, which suggests that the Watford DDFS won't actually work ok with Xfer!)

:?:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:20 am

lurkio wrote:
KayjayUK wrote:OK so the W.E. DFS will work ok with Xfer.

Are you referring to the Watford DDFS which you mentioned earlier? What makes you say that it "will work ok with Xfer"? (I ask because you then go on to describe an error, which suggests that the Watford DDFS won't actually work ok with Xfer!)

:?:

I'm going off the statement you made earlier that Xfer is 1770 compatible that's all.

Which error did you mean? 'Problem changing to DFS'?

The beeb is now going as far as to do a *DISC which it wasn't before, it then reports 'Invalid data received. Please try again'

There is something really weird happening here, I'm having a problem with the eprom programmer, I wanted to burn an Acorn DFS but it wasn't recognised when I put it in the Beeb. I tried a copy of W.E.DFS and the same there but if I loaded my burner buffer from the existing Watford ROM and then burnt a new one from that data it was fine. It's like all my images are corrupt. I just don't understand what the heck is going on. Whether it's all tied together as one fault or my burner isn't working right but my images are ok after all. I just don't know, all I do know is I want to throw the darned thing out of the window !!
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:27 am

Could this particular problem with Xfer be connected with the PC running on Win10?
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby lurkio » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:17 pm

KayjayUK wrote:I'm going off the statement you made earlier that Xfer is 1770 compatible that's all.

Ah. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Xfer is compatible with Watford DDFS! I mean, it probably is, but there's nothing in the documentation to confirm that it is.

KayjayUK wrote:Which error did you mean? 'Problem changing to DFS'?

Yes.

KayjayUK wrote:The beeb is now going as far as to do a *DISC which it wasn't before, it then reports 'Invalid data received. Please try again'

Have you tried using a lower baud rate?

KayjayUK wrote:... I wanted to burn an Acorn DFS but it wasn't recognised when I put it in the Beeb. I tried a copy of W.E.DFS and the same there but if I loaded my burner buffer from the existing Watford ROM and then burnt a new one from that data it was fine. It's like all my images are corrupt.

Most of the problems you've described in this thread so far seem to revolve around the failure of the process of transferring disc-images from your PC to your BBC B via your DataCentre without corruption.

It does sound as though something's up with the DataCentre itself. Perhaps it's something as simple as the connector pins being slightly tarnished, which can be fixed just by unplugging and re-plugging the DataCentre out of and into the Beeb a few times.

On the other hand, maybe there's something wrong with some of the ICs on the motherboard of the Beeb -- which is beyond my knowledge to make any helpful suggestions about. Or maybe the DataCentre device itself is faulty. It might be worth contacting Mark of Retroclinic to ask his advice. He's on this forum but you probably also have other means of reaching him if he sold you your DataCentre in the first place.

Or maybe the real problem is none of the above, but, if so, I haven't a clue what it might be.

:?

KayjayUK wrote:Could this particular problem with Xfer be connected with the PC running on Win10?

I don't know. The last time I did a serial transfer was a while ago, and it was from BBC to PC, and the PC was running either Windows XP or Windows 8 -- I forget which -- but definitely not Windows 10.

:|

KayjayUK wrote:... I just don't know, all I do know is I want to throw the darned thing out of the window !!

At the risk of introducing yet more variables into an already confusing situation, have you considered getting one of these --

-- and trying to transfer data via SD card instead?

:?:

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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:45 pm

lurkio wrote:At the risk of introducing yet more variables into an already confusing situation, have you considered getting one of these --

-- and trying to transfer data via SD card instead?

:?:


Yes, it's worth a try, at the price it certainly can't hurt :)
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Re: A Little Quill Advice Please

Postby KayjayUK » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:18 pm

Well, I'm going to try something else while waiting for that little device to come through the letterbox. I have a laptop running on Win 8 and I also have several old Beebs, I'm in the process of changing the caps in the power supply of one ......... my wife hates the stinky smell :)

Once that's done I will download the Quill file you left for me and try again with Xfer.

Oh, and the baud rate I was trying at earlier was 1200, I left the settings as they were after I did the initial transfer to get the first program across to the Beeb, so speed wasn't the issue.

I shall post again when I've tried the laptor.

Keith
From little Acorns great Beebs grow!


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