*now solved* help needed with Quill

discussion of beeb/electron applications, languages, utils and educational s/w
User avatar
aerworuld
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
Contact:

*now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby aerworuld » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:08 pm

hey all,

Up until now, I've been happily using the hacked version of the Quill that allowed saving of databases and finalised adventures to disc. This has been fine and no errors have been encountered.

In typical Stu fashion, i need to do something a bit funky now though - my latest adventure (ZAOR!) is on disc and disc image, but I've been asked by an Electron user to do a tape version, which I will put out as a FLAC audio download and maybe even a real cassette ;-)

There is a problemo though: I decided to finally catch up with the times and use the recently discovered official beeb/elk disc version of the Quill, because when you save your final adventure it gives you the option to save to cassette. I thought this would be an easy way to get my disc quill-game database into a cassette adventure. Wrong!

It all appeared to work fine and it saved the adventure to cassette, but when you load it you get random lines from the game and gobbledeegook filling the screen and you can;t do nowt. In fact, if you load the database and test it in the official Quill verison, you get the same.

There is obviously something the two version cannot bear to speak to each other about! Can anyone help me? Is there an easy way to fix this?

I really can't face building a new Quill database with the official version, but I would love to be able to get a taper version of the adventure.

Yours hopefully,
Stu

*Edit* for interest, main game thread is here.
Last edited by aerworuld on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
aerworuld
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
Contact:

Re: help needed with Quill

Postby aerworuld » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:16 pm

I should have said: when you load the database from the hacked version into the official version and examine the various tables (vocab, objects, etc,) they are all gobbledegook. In fact, when you 'list' the vocab table it even changes into mode 3 and properly poops itself :shock:

User avatar
davidb
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:11 pm
Contact:

Re: help needed with Quill

Postby davidb » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:25 pm

Is the P.flyer file on the disk needed? I'm guessing that the ZAOR image isn't used at all. In which case, if the load order is

Code: Select all

$.LOADER
$.ZAORCV
$.INST
$.BIBM

then I can make a UEF for you right away. :)

User avatar
aerworuld
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
Contact:

Re: help needed with Quill

Postby aerworuld » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:39 pm

davidb wrote:Is the P.flyer file on the disk needed? I'm guessing that the ZAOR image isn't used at all. In which case, if the load order is

Code: Select all

$.LOADER
$.ZAORCV
$.INST
$.BIBM

then I can make a UEF for you right away. :)


Hi David,

I think I've cracked it! I loaded BIBM into memory from disc then saved it to tape and it works!!

I was trying to make thinks more complex than they needed to be ;-)

I've rewritten loader so it's tape friendly and resaved zaorcv so that's loadable from tape too.

Thank you so much for the offer but I think I have achieved what I needed to!

Amazed,
Stu :-)

User avatar
davidb
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:11 pm
Contact:

Re: *now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby davidb » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Sounds good. Usually things from disk will run fine from tape as long as they don't want to read and write from multiple files at once or do random access. Memory is easier with tape, too, so *LOADing and *SAVEing will usually get you close to where you need to be. :)

User avatar
lurkio
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:30 pm
Location: Doomawangara
Contact:

Re: *now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby lurkio » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:20 pm

davidb wrote:Memory is easier with tape

Slightly tangential, this, but I believe that the disc version of Quill actually allows for larger game-databases than the tape version because it uses overlays (one for each of the various data-table editors, plus one for the game engine), which are swapped into RAM as and when they're needed -- whereas the tape version has to load all the editing code and the game engine into RAM up front, and they all stay resident the whole time that you're editing your game, which leaves less room for the actual game data.

:idea:

User avatar
davidb
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:11 pm
Contact:

Re: *now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby davidb » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:33 pm

I'm sure you know what I was getting at, but I should clarify for others. ;) What I meant was that, in the cases where files are just loaded into memory, you typically have more memory available on tape-based systems because you don't lose memory to things like filing system workspace.

It seems to me that a lot of the disk-based games use some kind of paging system or simply read from files as required, so they sidestep the RAM issue and take advantage of secondary storage to make bigger games. This is a problem when considering how to make ROM versions of those adventures.

User avatar
aerworuld
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
Contact:

Re: *now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby aerworuld » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:27 am

For completeness, I've uploaded the FLAC along with the original ssd to my ZAOR page on AET.

When I get a chance I'll do a UEF ;-)

User avatar
davidb
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:11 pm
Contact:

Re: *now solved* help needed with Quill

Postby davidb » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:51 am

If you have a disk with the tape versions of the files on, you can convert it with the SSD2UEF.py tool from this repository. It depends on a couple of other Python modules in that repository so it's not a standalone tool.


Return to “software: other”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests