RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Arc/RPCs, peripherals, RISCOS operating system & ARM kit eg GP2x, BeagleBoard
sirbod
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RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:31 am

Given the requirement to replace ADFS during POST to resolve some CF / SD read issues, what's the general view on creating new physical RISC OS EPROM's with a general update of all Modules?

There are several major challenges we'd need to overcome:
  1. We'd need to work out how to unpick and reconstruct the ROM image, possibly fixing up any static address pointers
  2. There's literally only a few free bytes in the 3.11 ROM, so replacing Modules with larger versions or including new ones might be a challenge without compression and insertion into the RMA
  3. Prospective Modules would need checking to ensure they're capable of running from ROM, if RMA insertion isn't used
Using compression for point 2 possibly defeats the advantage of new ROM's to reduce the RAM footprint of updated Modules. It might be worth considering dropping some of the lesser used items that can move to the HD, such as Configure, Calc, Draw, Printer drivers etc.

Modules to consider including:
  • Updated core Modules from the ROOL !System update
  • Additional essential Modules from UniBoot
  • Core network Modules
  • Revised Modules in RISC OS 3.19
Possibly suitable EPROM chips (pinout needs verifying):
A 5th column ROM probably isn't worth pursuing as only the A5000 has a socket for it.

unmodsqz tool for uncompressing compressed Modules.

Module/App additions:

Code: Select all

Name                    Version  Size    Description
---------------         -------  ------  --------------
ADFS                    2.68      33360  Core update
ADFSUtils               0.05         72  Stub Module
AUNMsgs                 0.30         92  Stub Module (contents merged into Messages)
BASIC                   1.73     130376  Core update
BASIC64                 1.73     122544  Core addition
BorderUtils             0.06         72  Stub Module
ColourTrans             1.57      11412  Core update
DragASprite             0.21       6064  Core update
DragAnObject            0.09       1308  Core addition
Filer                   1.72      30780  Core update
FilterManager           0.28       6088  Core update
FontManager             3.28      60640  Core update
FPEmulator              4.36      30572  Core update
Messages                0.47     926669  Updated Messages Module
MessageTrans            0.28       3584  Core update
NetFiler                0.86      11744  Core update
NetFS                   6.00      30104  Core update
NetPrint                5.61      10600  Core update
NetStatus               2.09        824  Core update
NetUtils                0.99         84  Stub Module
SCSIFiler               1.50       6856  SCSI support
SharedCLibrary          5.94      98912  Core update
TaskWindow              0.80      13320  Core update
WindowManager           5.59     114256  Core update
CMOSUtils               0.03        240  Core addition
CallASWI                0.18       6168  Core addition (needs rewriting to run from ROM, or v0.11)
MbufManager             0.23       9440  Network stack
Freeway                 0.41      19208  Network stack (C - needs a ROM build)
Internet                5.62     150040  Network stack (C - needs a ROM build)
MimeMap                 0.19       6672  Network stack (C - needs a ROM build)
Net                     6.26      31688  Network stack (C - needs a ROM build)
                                -------
                                1873780

Module/App removals:

Code: Select all

Name                    Version  Size    Description
---------------         -------  ------  --------------
!Alarm                  2.37      53056  Updated and merged into Messages
!Draw                   0.88     169928  Updated and merged into Messages
!Calc                   0.52       5268  Updated and merged into Messages
!Chars                  1.13       3856  Updated and merged into Messages
!Configure              1.41      19472  Merged into Messages
!Help                   2.19       6868  Updated and merged into Messages
!Paint                  1.61      89760  Updated and merged into Messages
ADFS                    2.67      33848  Updated
ADFSUtils               0.05        644  Redundant
BASIC                   1.05      52312  Updated
BASICTrans              1.00      14588  Redundant 
ColourTrans             1.07      11628  Updated
DragASprite             0.03       3724  Updated
Filer                   1.64      27748  Updated
FilterManager           0.08       1924  Updated
FontManager             3.07      60408  Updated
FPEmulator              2.87      19916  Updated
MessageTrans            0.23       3356  Updated
NetFiler                0.72       8360  Updated
NetFS                   5.78      25744  Updated
NetPrint                5.43       7988  Updated
NetStatus               2.06        804  Updated
NetUtils                0.99       1264  Redundant
Printers                0.34      79180  Move to !System (if required)
PDriver                 3.18       2160  Move to !System (if required)
PDriverDP               3.28      25192  Move to !System (if required)
SharedCLibrary          3.99     186532  Updated
TaskWindow              0.47      10740  Updated
WindowManager           3.16     107184  Updated
                                 ------
                                 980396

Wish list additions:

Code: Select all

Name                    Version  Size    Description
---------------         -------  ------  --------------
SharedUnixLibrary       1.14       3116  Unix app support
DigitalRenderer         0.56      11412  Part of SharedUnixLibrary
LineEditor              2.78      15416  Commandline history
!HForm                  2.56      71378  Format HD's without floppies!
ZLib                    0.02      71552  ZIP support (C - needs a ROM build)
ZipFS                      ?          ?  ZIP Image filesystem (needs coding)
Toolbox Modules         1.57     278192  Toolbox Modules (C - needs a ROM build)
DHCP                       ?          ?  Need an ARM3 build
VProtect                4.03      21504  Virus prevention
ABCLib                  4.18      21732  Used by compiled BASIC programs (needs a ROM build)
FrontEnd                1.33      95728  DDE FrontEnd?
SCSIFS                  1.1?          ?  SCSI support (need earlier than 1.16)
AutoVIDC                3.00          ?  VIDC Enhancer control (needs coding)
RomApps3D               1.20      90192  NewLook Module
Attachments
HForm256.zip
Uncompressed version of !HForm 2.56
(27.11 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
Last edited by sirbod on Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 41 times in total.

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danielj
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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:05 am

I'd have thought this is of primary benefit to the A3020 and A4000 as you've got a 5th column option on the A5000, and if you're using the earlier machines you're likely to be introducing a podule that either has idefs or can have its podule rom manipulated?

d.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:35 am

danielj wrote:I'd have thought this is of primary benefit to the A3020 and A4000 as you've got a 5th column option on the A5000, and if you're using the earlier machines you're likely to be introducing a podule that either has idefs or can have its podule rom manipulated?

The 5th column ROM might be of use if its 32bit, if its 8 bit the Modules would be inserted into the RMA - not a show stopper but obviously defeats the point of putting Modules into ROM. Creating a 5th column ROM is certainly easier than a complete RISC OS update.

Personally, I'd like to reduce the RMA footprint on RO 3.11 with a network stack if possible, as the Modules take over 1mb of RMA. Not to mention all the issues around EtherH requiring CLib, meaning it can't then be updated during the boot sequence. I've mentioned this particular issue on ROOL, as the EtherH ROM flash really needs to be updated in step with CLib.

Podules would allow ADFS to be patched. I'm not sure if there's room to fit the complete 2.68 Module in all Podules, so an update ADFSUtils might be required. That's possibly a lot of work if RISC OS 3.0 is also going to be patched as I don't believe Acorn produced a patch for it.

As you mention, earlier machines would have an IDE Podule so ADFS isn't applicable in those cases. If we are going to produce ROM's though, we may as well cover the earlier machines as they'll definitely benefit from updated Modules such as CLib, FPEmulator, network stack etc.

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danielj
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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:43 am

Once the image is done, producing them for the various formats is fairly trivial I'd have thought. Paint and Draw are clearly expendable. I'd like to keep configure in there, if only to get the initial twiddling done before the HDD is set up (it'll make life easier in support terms :D)

d.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:55 am

danielj wrote:I'd like to keep configure in there, if only to get the initial twiddling done before the HDD is set up (it'll make life easier in support terms :D)

Good point, Configure would need to stay.

We need to compile a list of specific Modules to include and what could be removed...then try to figure out how much additional space it would require and probably start reducing the wish list down to "must have" Modules.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby paulv » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:10 pm

danielj wrote:...and if you're using the earlier machines you're likely to be introducing a podule that either has idefs or can have its podule rom manipulated?


True but some of the benefit of being in ROM is lost if the module is loaded into RAM from the podule ROM. Also, some modules need to be in RAM because of the way they're built.

As an example, I know the AutoVIDC module I inherited can be put in a podule ROM which soft loads when the IDE board initialises but it wouldn't operate from a masked ROM because rather than reserving and using a small block of working memory, it self modifies the variables within its own code at the moment. This is something that I really want to deal with to make it much more system compliant in the future and my plan is to leave the current AutoVIDC module as is now and then produce AutoVIDC 3, a RISC OS 3.x only version which can be put in ROM and support the more flexible arduino I2C controlled clock generator too.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:50 am

A request I received in the mail:
Please consider the following ideas :

- alter the test sequence when booting ( of the MEMC VIDC and so on) to allow further overclocking of the ARM250 12 Mhz system
- remove the calculator app, after all it is not highly necessary, and there are better third party tools

The 5th column ROM might be not something to discard, after all, if it simply means one of the ROMs has to be mounted on a small daughterboard, with an additional free socket for this 5th column ROM

paulv wrote:my plan is to leave the current AutoVIDC module as is now and then produce AutoVIDC 3, a RISC OS 3.x only version which can be put in ROM and support the more flexible arduino I2C controlled clock generator too

That would be on my "must have" list as I load AutoVIDC on all my Arc's, along with !HForm modified into a Wimp app.

I'm going to start compiling details in the OP, so if folk would like to add to that, we need the following details:

<Module/App name> <version> <size in bytes> <download URL/location> <reason to include if not a core Module update>

On the removal side, based on the RISC OS 3.11 ROM:

<Module/App name> <size in bytes> <reason for removal>

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby ajw99uk » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:54 am

How difficult to have alternative module sets? For example, I don't use econet but would like an FPA-aware FPEmulator and Edit whereas for someone else econet would be a priority.

Not envisaging any one person maintains a library of many combinations of modules, if the build-an-image process can be devolved. In other words if I want a custom ROM, I build it and ask someone else just to do the writing to EPROMs. Is that feasible or is building the image itself too convoluted to be performed reliably by an interested amateur?

EDIT: Re-reading the thread, I see the "how" is one the challenges, so my "how convoluted?" is premature, sorry!
Running RISCOS: A5000, A540, R140, RiscPC, RPi B
Running *nix: SGI Fuel & Indigo2, RPi2, x86, amd64, RiscPC, A540, R140

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby Phlamethrower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:22 pm

sirbod wrote:
  1. We'd need to work out how to unpick and reconstruct the ROM image, possibly fixing up any static address pointers


C modules are going to be the big problem here, since they're statically linked to the ROM CLib. So changing the address of the module, or changing CLib, is going to affect them. Assembler modules generally tend to be fully position-independent.

Luckily there aren't that many C modules to worry about in 3.11 - it should only be modules which appear after CLib in ROM order which are linked to it, which is Filer_Action, !Configure, !Draw, !Paint, !Edit, DOSFS, ADFSUtils and NetUtils. ADFSUtils and DOSFS are assembler, the rest I believe are C modules. Most of them could probably be replaced with the latest ROOL versions without any downsides (or dropped from ROM, e.g. !Draw & !Paint), except for !Configure, where you'd really want to stick with a 3.11-era version to avoid bloat and ensure compatibility.

These are the sources to the monolithic (pre-Ursula) configure app, but it looks like the oldest version in CVS is for RISC OS 3.6, so it will need some work to produce a version with the right feature set for 3.11 (remove all disc-based settings files, remove FSLock, check CMOS locations, etc.)

Other than the problems that C modules pose, unpicking and re-packing ROMs is fairly straightforward. ROMUnjoin will mostly deal with splitting the ROM (probably best to use a modified version, or a wrapper script - it has a couple of quirks you'll need to deal with), and chances are romlinker can be used as-is to re-assemble a new ROM.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:03 pm

Thanks for the info Jeffrey.

I've taken a stab at some of the core additions/removals in the OP. If the non essential apps are moved out of the ROM, there's probably enough space to add in all the Toolbox Modules.

Although the updated Modules from PlingSystem.zip are obvious, there's some key omissions, such as FontManager (I've no idea where I got 3.28 from). There's probably other updated Modules that aren't in PlingSystem that need updating, so we need to hunt down the latest versions of all ROM based Modules.

I'm not certain if the Econet Modules were updated, or if all Modules in Network folder in PlingSystem.zip are vital. There's probably other Modules in PlingSystem.zip that want adding that aren't existing core Modules and a solution to the software/hardware versions of FPEmulator needs some consideration.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby flibble » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:15 pm

I have the bits and pieces around to do this, many years ago qUE gave me a ROM builder program that you could use to attach a different set of modules to the RO 3.1 kernel header. I wrote a program to de-construct the 'messages' module, which contains the contents of the ROM filing system, add in files and then build it back up again. From memory there was even clever 'hack' that locked the C library to the same location in ROM so the rom apps statically linked to it still worked.

It worked well enough to make a rom image (that I tested with red squirel) that contained the 3.98 nested window manager in by default.

... now if only I could find all the bits.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby flibble » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Well I found it, though the C linked apps are not working. Looking at the date on this made me feel old :D I think my plan might have been to use the disc based versions of !Edit, !Paint and !Draw that shipped with RISC OS 3.50

ro311p1.png


ROM311p1.zip
(997.52 KiB) Downloaded 11 times


Would anyone like me to upload the various other bits?

1) the ROM builder
2) the messages module builder
3) the app for munging the help flags in > RO3.5 modules so they load on 3.1

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby Phlamethrower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:56 pm

sirbod wrote:Although the updated Modules from PlingSystem.zip are obvious, there's some key omissions, such as FontManager (I've no idea where I got 3.28 from).


Good spot. That's missing from the RO5 disc image as well. (Apart from bugfixes, are there any benefits in using a newer version?)

a solution to the software/hardware versions of FPEmulator needs some consideration.


The Archimedes build supports both software emulation and the FPA10 co-processor, so should be fine for 99% of people.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:04 pm

(sorry, probably naive) Will any of the much later versions introduce incompatibilities with games that run happily under 3.11?

d.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:40 pm

flibble wrote:Would anyone like me to upload the various other bits?

Yes please, it sounds like it does most of what we need.

Statically linked C Modules will still need correcting, but that can probably be patched by looking for branches into the CLib Module and altering them accordingly. I'm not quite sure how we work out where the entry points are in the new CLib, probably register to get the branch table and get them from that, cross checking against the ROM CLib entry table?
Phlamethrower wrote:Apart from bugfixes, are there any benefits in using a newer version [of FontManager]?

Good question, we'd have to dig out the Acorn update notes to see if there are any benefits. I suspect the RISC OS 3.11 Modules that received updates were purely bug fixes.
Phlamethrower wrote:
a solution to the software/hardware versions of FPEmulator needs some consideration.

The Archimedes build supports both software emulation and the FPA10 co-processor, so should be fine for 99% of people.

Are you saying we no longer need a specific version to make use of the FPA10 if its present? Were they merged recently then?
danielj wrote:Will any of the much later versions introduce incompatibilities with games that run happily under 3.11?

I don't believe there will be any impact, I don't recall any Module incompatibilities with getting games to run on RISC OS 3.5. Joystick possibly and GameModes - we might want to consider them.
Last edited by sirbod on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby Phlamethrower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:01 pm

sirbod wrote:
Phlamethrower wrote:
a solution to the software/hardware versions of FPEmulator needs some consideration.

The Archimedes build supports both software emulation and the FPA10 co-processor, so should be fine for 99% of people.

Are you saying we no longer need a specific version to make use of the FPA10 if its present? Were they merged recently then?


As far as I know the 3.10 version from PlingSystem should work fine.

I think the problem is that there are many different build configurations for the module, and unless you have a reference for the version suffixes it's very easy to pull the wrong version from one machine and attempt to install it in another. Not to mention the fact that there may well be build options that don't correspond to flags - e.g. the "Arm600" option which controls whether a 3.5+ compatible version is produced, and the fact that not all suffixes are documented

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby JonC » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:13 pm

Just a thought, if you build a daughter board to repace the ROMS (a-la RO2 to RO3 daughter board for the A3x0 and A4x0), would it be better to put something modern and programable (chip wise) on the daughter board to make updates/fixes/patches easier just be reprogramming it?

That way people could develop their own modules and the implementation of backported fixes into earlier versions of RiscOS would be far easier. :mrgreen:
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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:17 pm

I think this is a really good idea... I was pondering this earlier but alas my knowledge of such things isn't good enough :( I had a cursory look for 27C800 type eeproms but couldn't find anything :(

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:09 pm

JonC wrote:Just a thought, if you build a daughter board to repace the ROMS (a-la RO2 to RO3 daughter board for the A3x0 and A4x0), would it be better to put something modern and programmable (chip wise) on the daughter board to make updates/fixes/patches easier just be reprogramming it?:

A board would only be required if RISC OS 2 is being upgraded to RISC OS 3. The AT27C040-70PU mentioned in the OP are reprogrammable and would be a direct replacement for the existing chips. I've not found the equivalent in 256x16 yet though.

If you're thinking of having the ability to flash the ROM in situ, then a daughter board with an I2C interface would be the route to take. Way beyond my skill set I'm afraid.
Last edited by sirbod on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby jms2 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 pm

My suggestion for inclusion (as an app, not a module) is !Sparkplug.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby crj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:27 am

sirbod wrote:If you're thinking of having the ability to flash the ROM in situ, then a daughter board with an I2C interface would be the route to take. Way beyond my skill set I'm afraid.

Well, a way to do it.

Some scheming I'm doing is oriented towards 8-bit machines, but could conceivably be repurposed. If I didn't expand the design specifically to cope, using the sledgehammer option of just having four of everything to cope with the 32-bit bus would mean somewhere in the ballpark of £150-£200 for instant switching between a dozen or so different RISC OS images, held in flash memory that was trivial to update.

I'm guessing that's prohibitively expensive, though...

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:10 am

crj wrote:somewhere in the ballpark of £150-£200 for instant switching between a dozen or so different RISC OS images, held in flash memory that was trivial to update

I'm not sure there would be a requirement for different RISC OS images pre RiscPC. £150 does sound expensive for a small board with some glue logic and a parallel flash chip.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby crj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:35 am

I'm just wondering. I mean, the boards that let you choose which OS you run on a BBC Master are quite popular; people might want to be able to flip back and forth between Arthur, RO2, RO3, their own custom RO3 build, etc.

The problem is: you do need to plug into all four ROM sockets, and that means four separate interfaces. The only alternative is a board custom-made for the Archimedes with four headers spaced appropriately.

Um... is the spacing of the ROM sockets even the same between models, come to think of it?

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:17 am

Can I suggest creating another thread with regard to multi-OS boards? It’s not relevant to updating the RISC OS ROM that is the purpose of this topic.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:21 am

The flipping between ROMs on the Master is handy as using the beeb OS can increase compatibility for games, 3.2 is the most compatible with Master software, and 3.5 had some bug fixes and extra utilities. With something that never ran anything other than RISCOS 3.1, I don't think there's much desire to go backwards (not sure the earlier versions would even run on 30x0/4000/5000? 2 will run on the A3000 I think...) other than out of curiosity. I believe Ian S has done a switchable version that plugs into the A3x0/4x0 series IIRC which has Arthur and something sensible on it :)

The real thing of importance here is getting a bugfixed ADFS into a usable ROM set at a reasonable price and take advantage of getting a few other useful bits and bobs in there.

Personally, I'd also like to see the network stack in there. Quite prepared to ditch draw/calc/paint, but not edit or, as I said earlier, config.

Edit: yes, if anyone wants to discuss an Arc multi-OS, start up a new thread :)

d.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 am

jms2 wrote:My suggestion for inclusion (as an app, not a module) is !Sparkplug.

I’d probably go with SparkFS instead, I’ll work out the requirements later and add them to the OP, along with HForm.

Anyone fancy taking on the task of putting a Wimp front end onto the last version of HForm for RISC OS 3.11?

EDIT: I think 2.56 was the last version of HForm, I've attached the uncompressed version to the OP.
danielj wrote:The real thing of importance here is getting a bugfixed ADFS into a usable ROM set at a reasonable price and take advantage of getting a few other useful bits and bobs in there.

Personally, I'd also like to see the network stack in there. Quite prepared to ditch draw/calc/paint, but not edit or, as I said earlier, config.

Edit, Config stay - they're both essential. The network stack is going in if it likes it or not! I'm fed up with fart arsing around to get my machines on a LAN :lol:

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:09 am

Worth checking with David P. over SparkFS I'd have thought? Also, do we really want to take up space with the read only version? For me that's probably an "only if there's room" I think.

d.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:37 am

danielj wrote:Worth checking with David P. over SparkFS I'd have thought? Also, do we really want to take up space with the read only version? For me that's probably an "only if there's room" I think.

There's probably going to be several items on the "wish list" that would need approval, not to mention the OS itself. SparkPlug/SparkFS would be very low on the inclusion list and only go in if there's room.

The priority is to update the core Modules, include the Network Stack, include the Toolbox Modules and other post RISC OS 3.11 essentials. Beyond that it's as space permits for the "wish list" items, with !HForm at the top of the list I'd say.

EDIT: Forget SparkFS, it's over 700K and won't fit regardless.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby sirbod » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:21 am

SparkPlug is 112K and SparkFS is over 700K.

Here's a radical idea, include ZLib instead and create an Image File System Module for it. It would only cover ZIP files, but could also benefit RISC OS 5 if it became part of the standard OS build.

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Re: RISC OS 3.20 ROM's?

Postby danielj » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:46 am

I like that idea - ZIP is arguably most useful in the long run...

d.


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