10base-2 crossover?

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Trapper
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10base-2 crossover?

Postby Trapper » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:00 am

Does there exist a 10base-2 version of the 10base-T/Cat5/RJ45 crossover cable?

My RISC PC NIC has both -t and -2 ports, but my A3010 network podule only has -2, that's why it only cost £15!

I've tried hooking it up to an old HP hub that has -2 and -T ports on it with no success. I don't even know if 10base-2 works with the TCP/IP ethernet protocol, or if it just works with ShareFS and Econet.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:29 am

10 Base 2 is just coaxial cable, there's nothing to cross over. It needs a terminating resistor at each end. Is the hub set up properly? Tcp/ip works perfectly over 2.

You won't be able to use the T and 2 ports on the RiscPC at the same time, it's one or the other.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:34 am

I just realised, you're using an A3010. You can't get tcp/ip set up on that easily (as far as I know) without having a hard disk to install Uniboot on which will give you the tcp/ip configuration options. And obviously on a standard A3010 it's either a network card or an ide card, you can't have both.

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:14 am

danielj wrote:And obviously on a standard A3010 it's either a network card or an ide card, you can't have both.
Couldn't you do the internal hard drive mod on the A3010?

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:17 am

That would turn it into a non-standard A3010 - but yes, that's the route to getting both going on an A3010 :D However, that mod's not for the faint hearted.

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:55 am

danielj wrote:However, that mod's not for the faint hearted.
d.

Indeed - but for the faint-hearted there's delving into universal boot to pull out a custom set of modules, library and config files to fit on a floppy ;-)
How's that for an authentic 1992 experience?
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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:04 am

Off you trot :lol: ;) . The RiscOS boot sequence is such a deep mystery to me that I'd take my chances with the soldering iron before attempting anything like that. You're right though, it should be possible to fit it on a 1.6mb floppy :) . Masochism is the word that springs to mind....

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby sirbod » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:05 am

danielj wrote:You're right though, it should be possible to fit it on a 1.6mb floppy :) . Masochism is the word that springs to mind....

It will fit on floppy, I've done it in the past on an 800K to get machines initially setup (but can't seem to find). On an A3010 memory might be an issue, the network stack takes around 1MB of RAM if the Modules aren't in a Podule. I'm not sure what it is with a Podule, probably not a lot different as the Modules are generally out of date or incompatible anyway.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:09 am

Although the podule-modules just get copied into RAM anyway if I recall, as the podule ROMs tend to be 8bit. I did try TCP/IP with 2mb on my A3020 and it wasn't very nice. 4mb makes everything usable.

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby sirbod » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:19 am

danielj wrote:Although the podule-modules just get copied into RAM anyway if I recall

Good point, making a machine with less than 4MB of RAM quite unusable when there's an active network stack.

I even struggle with 4MB. When using my 440/1 I have to connect to the network, copy stuff over, reboot and only then can I run any games or image floppies!

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby SteveBagley » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:22 am

danielj wrote:That would turn it into a non-standard A3010 - but yes, that's the route to getting both going on an A3010 :D However, that mod's not for the faint hearted.


Could you not modify the podule ROM to contain enough modules to TFTP boot the rest of the network modules needed to netboot the A3010 (i.e. a RISC OS equivalent of the R225).

Steve

crj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby crj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:47 am

I feel like I'm missing something, here:

Code: Select all

$ ls -lh \!NFSFiler/rm
-rw-r--r-- 1 1001 users  91K Aug 17  1990 NFS,ffa
-rw-r--r-- 1 1001 users  144 Aug 30  1990 Support,ffa
$ ls -lh \!Internet/rm
-rw-r--r-- 1 1001 users 153K Aug 17  1990 Internet,ffa
-rw-r--r-- 1 1001 users  37K Aug 17  1990 RouteD,ffa

280Kbytes is a painful bite out of the RAM on a 1Mbyte machine, but it's not show-stopping. And it definitely fits comfortably on a floppy.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:56 am

Okay, that's a start. How are the modules configured without having to use the standard boot sequence? I haven't been able to find anything online... e.g. setting nameservers, gateway, IP address etc, etc?

d.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby sirbod » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:39 pm

crj wrote:I feel like I'm missing something

You've forgotten about the network stack and NIC driver, which are in !System. They do still fit on a floppy though.

Memory wise, it's the packet buffer that eats into memory.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby crj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:00 pm

Nameservers? Oooh, there speaks an optimist! /etc/hosts file, I'm afraid.

If you have a copy of !Internet, just rummage around inside it and things are relatively self-explanatory. Start at !Configure and the contents of the files subdirectory.

If you just want to todge things directly, you'll need the utilities in the bin subdirectory:
  • ifconfig -e <Inet$EtherType> inet netmask &FFFFFF00 192.168.1.1
  • route -e add net 0.0.0.0 192.168.1.254 1
I'm only guessing at that route rune for adding a default gateway - I've never dared let a RISC OS box loose on the global Internet. You can, in theory configure it to use routed, but...

I notice that the bin directory does contain tftp. At only 15k, it's a useful counterpart to the 90+Kbyte NFS client and might be useful in building some kind of minimal bootstrap floppy/ROM.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Mine happily chats to the global internet, but it does reside behind my router which doesn't let anything talk back to it. I'd love to see a telnet server take down an Arc ;) :D

d.

crj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby crj » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:07 pm

sirbod wrote:You've forgotten about the network stack and NIC driver, which are in !System.
Hmm. The Ether1/Ether2 modules were both pretty tiny, weren't they? And I thought the Internet module was the network stack?

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:46 pm

crj wrote:If you have a copy of !Internet, just rummage around inside it and things are relatively self-explanatory. Start at !Configure and the contents of the files subdirectory.

If you just want to todge things directly, you'll need the utilities in the bin subdirectory:
  • ifconfig -e <Inet$EtherType> inet netmask &FFFFFF00 192.168.1.1
  • route -e add net 0.0.0.0 192.168.1.254 1
.

You can use default in place of net 0.0.0.0.

For inspiration, probably also worth looking at the pre-RiscPC BootNet and Starling (especially rmkill/rmload sequences for ShareFS modules when used with TCPIP), without having to piece together bits from !Internet and !Boot.config.internet. In other words, going back to stuff written with maybe half an eye on HD-less machines.

Which manual was it that had tips on RAM usage, ie how to minimise what the base system is using? 2.00, 3.1x or the upgrade notes? Some obvious (wimpmode 0), some less obvious (too unobvious to have an example ready to mind!)
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:48 pm

crj wrote:
sirbod wrote:You've forgotten about the network stack and NIC driver, which are in !System.
Hmm. The Ether1/Ether2 modules were both pretty tiny, weren't they? And I thought the Internet module was the network stack?

Though an A3010 interface would be later? Ether3 or the ANT/other equivalent? Not that I know how much bigger the module is...
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Trapper
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby Trapper » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:49 pm

I can't do the A3010 HDD mod as it's an Adelaide not an ARM250!

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby Trapper » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:35 pm

Yep it's an EtherLAN 100. Are the ROM chips flashable? I can see one contains the AUN modules, I wonder if the others contain Access and Internet?

I can't test it yet until my A3010 is back together and the IDE podule is removed!

I have 4MB of RAM, and as well as softloading the networking modules from !Boot I can also run a Boot sequence from ZipFS.
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steve3000
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby steve3000 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:08 am

Trapper wrote:I can't do the A3010 HDD mod as it's an Adelaide not an ARM250!

That doesn't stop you doing the HDD modification, in fact it should be slightly easier, as the Adelaide board pins are easier to solder onto... The important ide controller IC24 (82c711) is still present, so you 'just' need to tap into the correct lines and data bus. It's a lot of work, but no more than for an ARM250 A3010.

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:50 am

Trapper wrote:Yep it's an EtherLAN 100. Are the ROM chips flashable? I can see one contains the AUN modules, I wonder if the others contain Access and Internet?

The flashrom contains all the modules - it's the small square one. See viewtopic.php?t=3788 for discussion of reflashing etc. With zip and 4MB softload should be fine.
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby sirbod » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:30 am

ajw99uk wrote:
Trapper wrote:Yep it's an EtherLAN 100. Are the ROM chips flashable? I can see one contains the AUN modules, I wonder if the others contain Access and Internet?

The flashrom contains all the modules - it's the small square one. See viewtopic.php?t=3788 for discussion of reflashing etc. With zip and 4MB softload should be fine.

That thread essentially says you can't flash it because a password is unknown.

I too would like to know how to flash these as I have a lot of EtherLAN's with varying revisions on software on them, all out of date.

Trapper
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby Trapper » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:15 pm

steve3000 wrote:
Trapper wrote:I can't do the A3010 HDD mod as it's an Adelaide not an ARM250!

That doesn't stop you doing the HDD modification, in fact it should be slightly easier, as the Adelaide board pins are easier to solder onto... The important ide controller IC24 (82c711) is still present, so you 'just' need to tap into the correct lines and data bus. It's a lot of work, but no more than for an ARM250 A3010.


Oh right. I seem to remember reading that the mod was ARM250 only.

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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:19 pm

No one's done it on an adelaide, but all the necessary signals appear to be there.

Trapper
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby Trapper » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:25 pm

And I ain't going to be the guinea pig for it either!

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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:48 am

sirbod wrote:
ajw99uk wrote:
Trapper wrote:Yep it's an EtherLAN 100. Are the ROM chips flashable? I can see one contains the AUN modules, I wonder if the others contain Access and Internet?

The flashrom contains all the modules - it's the small square one. See viewtopic.php?t=3788 for discussion of reflashing etc. With zip and 4MB softload should be fine.

That thread essentially says you can't flash it because a password is unknown.
I too would like to know how to flash these as I have a lot of EtherLAN's with varying revisions on software on them, all out of date.

I thought I'd seen mention of a consultation with DesignIT, whose view (as reported) was that i3's flashing utility was not very good and not supported by them, so that left a dead-end for finding the utility.
But ROOL does have an EtherLAN flash update utility for the 32 bit module in https://www.riscosopen.org/zipfiles/platform/riscpc/NICDrivers.zip?1496386776, which might be adaptable to inject an updated (but still 26bit) EtherH, and perhaps other modules, though from the utility contents I think you would need to create a romimage first. This is the relevant section from the notes:

Code: Select all

EtherH
------
The EtherH NIC includes a programmable chip called flash memory. This can be
reprogrammed in situ using the !EthLanPrg tool included in this archive. Run
the program single tasking (ie. do not run from a task window) and follow
the on screen prompts.

On running, some autodetected properties will be printed on the screen. When
you are happy, confirming will reprogram the flash memory.

Most EtherH expansion cards also include programmable flash memory, the flash
memory requires a small loader to run so that RISC OS can access it.
The !EthLanPrg tool included in this archive will upgrade this in situ to one
that is 26/32 bit compatible, however the initial upgrade must be performed on
a 26 bit operating system so that the original 26 bit loader can be used.
Once the 26/32 bit loader is installed any future upgrades can be performed
on any version of RISC OS.

!EthLanPrg contains romimage5 and romimage6, presumably for 500 podule cards and 600 NICs respectively, so getting it to talk to a 100 or 200 might be "interesting".
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby ajw99uk » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:59 am

danielj wrote:You won't be able to use the T and 2 ports on the RiscPC at the same time, it's one or the other.

EtherLAN600 defaults to 10base2 unless it detects activity only on T or (in later module versions) is configured for T. So I'd expect a direct 2-to-2 connection should just workTM (unless "EHconnection" is configured 10baseT).

I don't _know_ if that's true of ANT EtherB NICs, but a vague recollection says it is.

Trapper, which NIC do you have in your RiscPC? EtherH or EtherB?
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danielj
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Re: 10base-2 crossover?

Postby danielj » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:05 am

You can build a new rom image for a 100 using Steve's tools:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13654

Then it's just a question of using an eprom programmer to write it to a new eeprom.

d.


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