Pandora / Panos Questions

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hoglet
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Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:50 pm

Hi Guys,

Over the last few days, with the help of FordP and Udo Möller (who wrote the m32632 core), I've been making slow progress towards a Matchbox version of 32016 Co Pro. It's at the stage now where I have Pandora booting, and can reliably LOAD/SAVE programs:
IMG_0322.JPG

But pretty much everything I try and run crashes....

I have a couple of Pandora / Panos questions....

1. What's the difference between Pandora v0.61 and Pandora v2.00 (i.e. which should I be running)

2. What's the difference between Panos v1.00, Panos v1.10 and Panos v1.40 (again, which should I be running)

3. Am I right in assuming that BBC Basic (Bas32) should work directly on top of either version of Pandora?

4. Do people typically use DFS or ADFS?

5. Is using an ADFS hard disk possible?

6. Does anyone have an ADFS hard disk image with all the Panos files installed?

7. Is using Data Centre possible?

BTW, I'm struggling to get this working with MMFS because MMFS only support 64KB file sizes.

Dave

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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:17 pm

Could anyone with a working 32016 Co Pro dump the top of memory after booting, like this:
IMG_0323.JPG

If you have a 512KB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 7FDBB +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 1MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB FFDBB +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 2MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 1FFDBB +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 4MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 3FFDBB +80
*DUMP MB

This will help me check that the memory test is writing the correct value to offset 0x34 in this dump.

Dave

RobC
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:20 pm

hoglet wrote:Over the last few days, with the help of FordP and Udo Möller (who wrote the m32632 core), I've been making slow progress towards a Matchbox version of 32016 Co Pro.

Brilliant! Soon I won't need any of my original co-pros :D
hoglet wrote:I have a couple of Pandora / Panos questions....

1. What's the difference between Pandora v0.61 and Pandora v2.00 (i.e. which should I be running)

2. What's the difference between Panos v1.00, Panos v1.10 and Panos v1.40 (again, which should I be running)

3. Am I right in assuming that BBC Basic (Bas32) should work directly on top of either version of Pandora?

4. Do people typically use DFS or ADFS?

5. Is using an ADFS hard disk possible?

6. Does anyone have an ADFS hard disk image with all the Panos files installed?

7. Is using Data Centre possible?

BTW, I'm struggling to get this working with MMFS because MMFS only support 64KB file sizes.

Not sure about 1 & 2 but BBC Basic runs directly from Pandora (not Panos) and works for me under v2.00. My real co-pro uses Pandora v2.00 and Panos 1.4 - I think these are the most stable/reliable versions. I've also got Panos 1.4 working on John Kortink's DE0-nano version.

Using a DC is definitely possible - I run my 32016 with Panos installed on the CF hard drive. I have a working image but, unfortunately, don't have anywhere to host it. I could pop a CD in the post or I'm only in Newport if you wanted to meet up. (I could even lend you my 32016 if that would help...)

I noticed a comment on Udo Möller's site that seemed to imply that the LX9 version doesn't have the FPU - I think quite a lot of stuff uses it so could that be your issue?

I can do the memory dump after I put the kids to bed...

Best wishes,

Rob
Last edited by RobC on Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:50 pm

On my 1MB co-pro I get:

Code: Select all

0B 44 00 F0 00 00 00 00
00 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
FF 00 80 00 00 BE 0A F0
00 B0 FD 0F 00 BC F9 0F
00 01 EF CD AB AE 0D F0
00 08 01 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 01 FF FF 00 00 10
00 44 42 3D 30 FF FF FF
FF FF FF FF FF 00 00 00
10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 20 00 3C
04 20 00 3C 04 20 00 3C
Last edited by RobC on Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:53 pm

RobC wrote:I noticed a comment on Udo Möller's site that seemed to imply that the LX9 version doesn't have the FPU - I think quite a lot of stuff uses it so could that be your issue?

Yeh, unfortunately the LX9 version doesn't have room for the FPU (the LX9 FPGA is a fair bit smaller than the one on the DE0-Nano)

I may well prove to be the case that a 32016 Co Pro without the FPU is not very useful. I guess we'll find out.

I'm not hitting any kind of illegal instruction exception, but then I have nothing at all hanging of the m32632's Co Pro interface.
RobC wrote:I can do the memory dump after I put the kids to bed...

Thanks

Dave

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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:55 pm

RobC wrote:On my 1MB co-pro I get
...

Which version of Pandora is this using?

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:01 pm

hoglet wrote:Which version of Pandora is this using?

v2.00.

(I've edited my post above to improve the formatting - I originally posted using NetSurf on my Pandaboard which wouldn't let me do it...)

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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:29 pm

RobC wrote:
hoglet wrote:Which version of Pandora is this using?

v2.00.

Thanks, that's the same version as mine.

(BTW, I made a mistake with the *SAVE commands, so there's one extra byte at the start, but not a problem....)

The one thing I wanted to check was that my memory test was working.

The top of user memory, as returned by OSBYTE &82, is stored in &1C(SB).
On your 1MB system it is &000FF9BC. On my 2MB system it is &001FF9BC.

The top of physical memory is stored in &34(SB).
On your 1MB system it is &00100000. On my 2MB system it is &00200000.

This looks all correct to me.

The other interesting data point is the value representing the state of the config jumpers, at &31(SB).

Your's is reading &01 (indicating the FPU is present). But so is mine, which is incorrect.

Looking at JHG's disassembly:
http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/32016/v200/Pandora.lst
It seems this value is hard coded, rather than actually being read from the config jumpers.

Thanks for your help.

Dave

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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:35 pm

This post was interesting.
http://mdfs.net/Archive/BBCMicro/2011/12/14/182002.htm

Looks like Pandora 0.61 reads the jumpers, but Pandora 2.00 doesn't.

Not sure whether this is relevant to my problems or not.

Dave

RobC
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:46 pm

I remember coming across that when I was thinking about installing the MMU in my co-pro.

It's probably a good job that v2.00 doesn't read the jumpers as I got into a bit of a mess when upgrading my unit to run at 10MHz. As I didn't upgrade the memory chips, I had to change some links to introduce additional wait states.

Out of interest, I've just tried removing the FPU:- PRINT "HELLO" and some simple FOR loops worked okay under Bas32.

There's a file called Bas32f on my hard drive so I'm wondering if that's the FPU-aware version?

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:51 pm

RobC wrote:Out of interest, I've just tried removing the FPU:- PRINT "HELLO" and some simple FOR loops worked okay under Bas32.

Cool!

Does PRINT PI work?
RobC wrote:There's a file called Bas32f on my hard drive so I'm wondering if that's the FPU-aware version?

I suspect you are right.

Dave

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:07 pm

Yes - PRINT PI and PRINT 14/3 both give what you'd expect under Bas32 with the FPU removed.

Bas32f won't run without the FPU installed but reports as BASIC IV and works with it installed.
EDIT: And it was discussed here: http://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1918

Panos gets to the prompt without the FPU but basic commands like 'cat' and 'dir' don't work.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby fordp » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:10 pm

My 640K 32016 is out the loft but will not run on my BBC Master yet :(

I have never had it attached to my Master yet and my 32016 has not been powered for well over 10 years.

Fingers crossed I can make it do something!
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby fordp » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:40 pm

I would guess some instructions are not operating normally hence the wrong memory size coming up.

Maybe run Udo's test suite on the CoPro and output the test register (r7) on the LEDs. I am not sure what you can do when you find failing tests however.
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:56 pm

fordp wrote:I would guess some instructions are not operating normally hence the wrong memory size coming up.

The problem is the DEI (integer divide) instruction used by the decimal print output code is broken.

I don't know if that was the intent, but I suspect if I reconnect the logic it will no longer fit.

But I'll try tomorrow.

Dave

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby fordp » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:18 am

hoglet wrote:Could anyone with a working 32016 Co Pro dump the top of memory after booting, like this:
Dave


Note to self ;)
If you have a 640KB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 9FDBB +80
*DUMP MB
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hoglet
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:21 am

Actually I made a 1 byte error in the address, so the corrected versions should be:

If you have a 512KB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 7FDBC +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 640KB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 9FDBC +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 1MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB FFDBC +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 2MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 1FFDBC +80
*DUMP MB

If you have a 4MB system, the commands would be:

Code: Select all

*SAVE MB 3FFDBC +80
*DUMP MB

Dave

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby fordp » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:44 pm

Well I tried attaching my 32016 CoPro to my new BBC 32K.
It does not recognise it as the "Watford Electronics DDFS 1.54T" does not have the tube code in it I guess :(

I need an MMFS ROM for my new Beeb I guess. I have not blown an EPROM in many years. I have all the kit somewhere :wink:
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:53 pm

fordp wrote:Well I tried attaching my 32016 CoPro to my new BBC 32K.
I does not recognise it as the "Watford Electronics DDFS 1.54T" does not have the tube code in it I guess :(

I thought that 1.54T *did* include the TUBE code - pretty sure I used to have it in my model B and that had a 6502 co-pro attached.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:56 pm

hoglet wrote:The problem is the DEI (integer divide) instruction used by the decimal print output code is broken.

I don't know if that was the intent, but I suspect if I reconnect the logic it will no longer fit.

I've tried John Kortink's 32016 implementation for the DE0-nano and that seemed to work (certainly as far as running the Panos demos).

Does this use a different core or is it broken in that too?

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby leenew » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:58 pm

The 'T' in 1.54T stands for tube I believe.
Lee.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby paulb » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:03 pm

RobC wrote:
hoglet wrote:The problem is the DEI (integer divide) instruction used by the decimal print output code is broken.

I don't know if that was the intent, but I suspect if I reconnect the logic it will no longer fit.

I've tried John Kortink's 32016 implementation for the DE0-nano and that seemed to work (certainly as far as running the Panos demos).

Does this use a different core or is it broken in that too?


There's a link from his page to Udo Möller's site discussing the Kortink application of the M32632 core and mentioning issues with the MEI instruction and other things that apparently needed fixing.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:14 pm

paulb wrote:
RobC wrote:
hoglet wrote:The problem is the DEI (integer divide) instruction used by the decimal print output code is broken.

I don't know if that was the intent, but I suspect if I reconnect the logic it will no longer fit.

I've tried John Kortink's 32016 implementation for the DE0-nano and that seemed to work (certainly as far as running the Panos demos).

Does this use a different core or is it broken in that too?


There's a link from his page to Udo Möller's site discussing the Kortink application of the M32632 core and mentioning issues with the MEI instruction and other things that apparently needed fixing.

I've just sorted the bug that was causing the decimal print routine to get messed up. It wasn't a bug in the core, but was a bug in how I was using the core. I was asserting the COP_DONE (Co Processor Done) signal externally, which has some unexpected side effects.

Anyway, the good news is that the start up banner now displays "2048 KB", which is the correct value.

The bad news is that BBC Basic (BAS32) still hangs when I try to do anything.

I've been trying to run Udo's test suite, and that also hangs half way through. That's a smaller piece of code for me to debug with.

My hunch is that I'm somehow inducing a core deadlock because the memory controller I've written is inserting extra wait states on byte writes (to allow read-modify-write memory cycles to happen). But that's really just a wild guess....

What's different compared to John Kortink's DE0-Nano Co Pro?
- we are using the same M32632 core, but my version has been hacked to remove the Floating Point functionalty
- we are using different memory controllers outside of the core

Dave

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby danielj » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:20 pm

fordp wrote:Well I tried attaching my 32016 CoPro to my new BBC 32K.
It does not recognise it as the "Watford Electronics DDFS 1.54T" does not have the tube code in it I guess :(

I need an MMFS ROM for my new Beeb I guess. I have not blown an EPROM in many years. I have all the kit somewhere :wink:


I'd suspect a grubby tube connector in the first instance :D

d.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:30 am

Hi Rob,
RobC wrote:Panos gets to the prompt without the FPU but basic commands like 'cat' and 'dir' don't work.

I've got a bit further now with trying to run Panos on the LX9 32016 Co Pro.

Any chance you could be more explicit about exactly what error you are seeing?

A screen shot would be very useful.

I just want to see if I'm now hitting the same error.

Dave

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:56 pm

hoglet wrote:Any chance you could be more explicit about exactly what error you are seeing?

Hi Dave,

Can't remember if I was getting an error or if it was just hanging. Think it may have been some sort of "not found" message but not certain.

I'll whip the FPU out again this evening and double check.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Just got a spare 5 mins...

cat and dir both hang with a flashing cursor with the FPU removed but work with it in place.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby hoglet » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:55 pm

Rob,
RobC wrote:Just got a spare 5 mins...

cat and dir both hang with a flashing cursor with the FPU removed but work with it in place.

Interesting

It seems I'm able to get further than that (on the LX9 32016 prototype, which doesn't have a FPU)

cat works

dir doesn't seem to exist (is that the right command in Panos)

I'm just running through the install scripts to install from DFS onto ADFS. The first two disks have worked fine.

When you removed the FPU, did you change the corresponding config link? Although Pandora doesn't seem to read these, it's possible Panos does.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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danielj
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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby danielj » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:56 pm

.swd to set working directory, .pwd to show current working directory.

d.

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Re: Pandora / Panos Questions

Postby RobC » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:41 pm

hoglet wrote:dir doesn't seem to exist (is that the right command in Panos)

It seems to output the current working directory with the FPU installed. I can try other commands if required and you're still welcome to borrow my unit if you wish.
hoglet wrote:I'm just running through the install scripts to install from DFS onto ADFS. The first two disks have worked fine.

I think the only thing you have to watch is that the 32016 is running quickly enough for ADFS. Mine is fine at 10MHz but wasn't at 6. (I've read that there's a special version of ADFS that can be used at 6Mhz.)
hoglet wrote:When you removed the FPU, did you change the corresponding config link? Although Pandora doesn't seem to read these, it's possible Panos does.

No - I just popped the chip out of the socket. Happy to change the link but it'll have to wait until tomorrow now.

Cheers,

Rob


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