Wires? Pah.....

discuss PC<>Acorn file transfer issues & the use of FDC, XFER, Omniflop/disk etc.
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Slo
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:58 pm

Hi Martin, sorry for the confusion im loading the rom image into sideways ram from floppy, its the loading sideways ram from the pc part thats not working. Something must be faulty with my machine but i cant see anything wrong :(

EDIT: should also mention that everything else is working fine regarding upurs so i doubt the lead is dodgy :/
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:34 pm

how about using an emulator to create an sad with the v5 rom on it then sending that sad to the beeb. If RLOAD can load the rom image that should work for the v5 rom too unless as Martin says, the v5 rom image is corrupt.

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:00 pm

In addition to Paul's suggestion (Paul - sad = ssd? :wink:), can you just perhaps recap your hardware buildstate and quickly go over again what you're doing when you get these problems. I think I'm a little confused as to what is and isn't working - it's not you, I'm just having a dumb day :)

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Yes that should work ill see if i can figure it out
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:07 pm

MartinB wrote:In addition to Paul's suggestion (Paul - sad = ssd? :wink:


Yes, ssd... It was the auto correct on my phone :(

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:22 pm

I have steve pictons 128k sideways ram board in my machine, its gives you 8 banks. It comes with software on cd that i have transferred onto floppy via the turbommc also from steve picton. RLOAD is one of these programs and it does the same as *SRLOAD on a master. Im trying to put the upurs 5 rom onto rom slot 15/F via upurs suite v4.1R from floppy. I can use *RLOAD UPURS F from floppy to install v4.1R into the rom slot no problem. When i use *UPLOAD R15 and send the v5 rom from my pc the beeb acts as normal and when you press a key says transfer complete however the rom slot is empty.
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:01 pm

Ah, *UPLOAD uses hex id's for the rom slot. Thus, you want...

*UPLOAD RF

It was probably loading Slot 1 before where you don't have any ram. It's just a me thing, I even say my prayers in hex [-o<

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:14 pm

YAY :D Worked like a charm that, should've realized myself after using F for the RLOAD command duh! Anyway :!: You sir should work for nasa or something, it never seems to amaze me when i use this upurs transfer, it always puts a smile on my face :D Dont suppose you know how to save a rom image to floppy do you? lol
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:28 pm

Slo wrote:Dont suppose you know how to save a rom image to floppy do you? lol
You put lol so I'm not sure if you're joking but you can of course use UPURS to export an image of any rom slot (or range of slots) to your PC with *UPXROM and from there, the possibilities are endless :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:38 pm

No im not joking was just being cheeky asking another question, i wanted to know how to save roms to floppy so i could just setup the sideways ram in future with a shift break should i ever find the rams lost its memory and i cant remember bugger all commands, but now i have it in my beeb i can do it myself with a saverom program which i couldnt do on my pc as i donthave the programs on my pc to emulate :) thanks
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:43 pm

Ok, in that case, just export the images to the PC with UPXROM and then use the emulator to put them on a disc image and finally UPURS the disc image back to real floppy. Simples... =D>

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:10 am

Just a quick note.

Microsoft have released some FTDI drivers for windows via their Windows update system. The "more info" link in the update is broken right now so I'm not sure what they are but...

According to the official FTDI website, the latest WHQL approved drivers for the RS-232 to USB cable are 2.08.24 which were released in April 2012.

I'd be suspicious of whatever it is MS are releasing today given that the latest drivers have been WHQL approved for almost a year and the fact that I've had them installed on my machine since release.

Anyway, it's just a heads up.

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:29 am

What do you get when you cross a UPURS cable and JGH's HostFS/TubeHost concept?

Code: Select all

>*UPURSFS
>*HSTATUS
Disk 0: 0.Mr_Ee
Disk 1: 1.test1
Disk 2:
Disk 3: 3.My_MrEe
Disk 4:
Disk 5:
Disk 6:
Disk 7:
Disk 8:
Disk 9:

Current drive: 0
Current directory: $ (:0:$)
Current library: :0.$

Open files:
### Filename     PTR#   EXT#   How D


>*DRIVE 3
>*.
Drive 3 (3.My_MrEe)
Dir. :3.$           Lib. :0.$

    !BOOT               MrEE     L
    MrEE2    L          MrEE3    L
    MrEE4    L

>*I.*.*
$.MrEE3     L  FF1900 FF8023 000299
$.MrEE      L  FF1900 FF8023 000244
$.!BOOT        000000 000000 000024
$.MrEE4     L  001900 004300 002B00
$.MrEE2     L  005800 005800 002800
>*DCAT
Disks available:
     0: 0.Mr_Ee
     1: 1.test1
     3: 3.My_MrEe
    10: 10.test10
    11: Cylon_Attack
    12: TAPES
>*DRIVE 11

Bad drive: 11
>*DIN 0 11
>*DRIVE 0
>*.
Drive 0 (Cylon_Attack)
Dir. :0.$           Lib. :0.$

    !BOOT               Ca       L
    Cylon    L

>*TYPE !BOOT
10CLOSE#0
20*FX21
30CHAIN"CYLON"
RUN
>

It's not perfect (in particular per-byte I/O is slow - eg *TYPE/*EXEC type stuff), but it seems to work. I can *LOAD a 24Kbyte file in approx 4.5 seconds. This is using a slight hack on my existing TubeHost backend (basically just some tuning speedups) so it _should_ work with the generic TubeHost that JGH wrote. I don't have a Windows machine to test with :-)

Not quite ready for prime-time, but I'm feeling pleased :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:02 pm

Stephen wrote:What do you get when you cross a UPURS cable and JGH's HostFS/TubeHost concept?
Hmmm... :-k

Stress? :wink:

Well done Stephen, looking really good =D>

Looking forward to the finished product, should be yet another great PC<>Beeb interface option :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:53 am

MartinB wrote:
Stephen wrote:What do you get when you cross a UPURS cable and JGH's HostFS/TubeHost concept?
Hmmm... :-k

Stress? :wink:

Well done Stephen, looking really good =D>

Looking forward to the finished product, should be yet another great PC<>Beeb interface option :D

Thank you for your help and patience as I went slightly (more) insane :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:42 am

OK, so here it is... The bastard child of JGH's HostFS and Martin's UPURS.... UPURSFS.

Code: Select all

The latest version of this code is always at
  http://sweh.spuddy.org/Beeb/UPURSFS/

This is what happens when you take the TubeHost concept
  http://sweh.spuddy.org/Beeb/TubeHost/
and combine it with UPURS
  http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/UPURS/

Summary: connect the BBC User port to a PC serial port and then run
a filesystem over it!

=====

Basically, I took the HostFS code written by JGH:
  http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/Serial/
  http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/Serial/6502.src

I converted this to BeebASM format source code
  http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/wiki/index.php/BeebAsm

To verify I hadn't broken JGH's code in the process I confirmed I
could assemble a ROM that was bytewise identical to his original.

Then I hacked in routines provide by MartinB, mangled in such a way
that they remained "API" compatible with JGH's code. 

Basically, blame me for the resulting mess, and not either of the
others, who unknowingly sacrificed their code to my vicious knife.
Bwahahahah.

The result... works :-)

For straight file transfers I've been able to send a 24K file from my
PC to the Beeb in around 4.5 seconds.  That's not bad, at all.  Gives
us around 43Kbit/s transfer speeds which, if my math is correct, isn't
too far off floppy disk speeds back in the day...

* In theory a BBC floppy did 300RPM; a track was 10 sectors of 256 bytes,
* so 2.5K in .2 seconds is 2.5*5*8=100Kbit/s.  However it was rare for
* the Beeb to handle that; worst case it would read one sector then miss
* the next so we'd have to wait for a rotation... 10Kbit/s!  Interleaved
* disks might get us 30 to 50Kbit/s.

43Kbit/s is perfectly reasonable.

However there is a "gotcha".  Using the user port to act at 115200 baud
is pushing the Beeb to its limits.  Basically there's around 17 clock
cycles per bit.  This means it's sometimes tempermental.  In particular,
detecting the start bit of a new byte is not always successful in a
_polling_ setup (which Serial Tube kinda is; some parts can't just block
waiting for input).

To help work around this, Martin's code puts in some wait states; after
asserting CTS if there's no start bit then wait a while, and check again.
If there's still no start bit then there's no data waiting for us; give
up (here is where blocking works better; just wait forever until we get
a start bit).  The "gotcha" is with this delay.  The Serial Tube concept
is byte-driven, and some routines (eg BGET#) are very very byte driven.
So while a *LOAD can be fast (we just throw data until we're finished),
something like a *TYPE is inherently slow; it opens the file then for
each character sends a unique command to HostFS.  This means we can
never stream, and the delay kicks in.

Through trial and error, I've found a delay value that works for me.  I
can "*TYPE" a 1K file without data loss or freeze up.  It's not _fast_
but it works.  It's good enough for *EXEC functionality!  However, if
you find hangs on random character based I/O like this then it might
be that the delay loop is too short.  If you look in the code then
you'll see

  .wait   LDY     #20
  .wait1  LDX     #0
  .wait2  DEX
          BNE     wait2
          DEY
          BNE     wait1
          RTS

Martin originally had "LDY #0"; for me #20 seems to work.  You might want
to tune this.  If you can't recompile then the accompanying "log" file
will show you where to binary edit the ROM:

  .wait
       8BEC   A0 14      LDY #&14
  .wait1
       8BEE   A2 00      LDX #&00
  .wait2
       8BF0   CA         DEX
       8BF1   D0 FD      BNE &8BF0
       8BF3   88         DEY
       8BF4   D0 F8      BNE &8BEE
       8BF6   60         RTS

Here, 8BED holds the value to edit.  The actual location may change,
depending on code versions, so always look at the log file if you
want to make binary edits.  (NOTE: I've found that if I put my TubeHost
code into heavy debug mode then data loss may appear, so this tuning is
a balancing act)

(I told you I made nasty changes to the code!  It's all my fault...)

The code does require a buffer to handle the speed of data from the PC;
I'm using the NMI space &D10->&D70.  In theory this shouldn't be used
by anything but programs might...  Other possible options are commented
in the code.

=====

Other thoughts...

  U-BREAK selects UPURSFS

=====

JGH has released his code under an "attribution" clause

   \ J.G.Harston, 16-Nov-2010
   \ This code may be freely reused, with acknowledgements

MartinB's code has been released under a "I trust you" agreement.  Heh.

As a result, I'm not sure the resulting code is GPLv2 compliant.  So
I'm releasing the combined mess under an "attribution clause" as well.

I've made the ROM copyright read (after comments from JGH)

            EQUS "(C)"
    IF      UPURS
            EQUS "Stephen Harris (sweh), with code from MartinB, HostFS core"
    ELSE
            EQUS "J.G.Harston"
    ENDIF

Although this code can assembled to generate an original HostFS ROM, I
strongly recommend you go to JGH's original site if that's what you want;
he'll always have the latest version with bug fixes etc.

The TubeHost side has been tested with an Asus EEEbox (Atom N270
based CPU @1.6Ghz) running Ubuntu 12.10 with an FTDI FT231X adapter,
and with a home built Core i5 2.66Ghz machine running CentOS 6 with
an FTDI FT2232C adapter (note: it loses data if DEBUG is set too high;
appears to be totally reliable with DEBUG set low enough).  The UPURSFS
client has been tested on an issue 7 model B

I don't have a 2nd processor, so I'm not sure what'll happen with that.
JGH has code which looks like it handles the case, but I'm utterly unable
to test.

BREAK/SHIFT-BREAK/CONTROL-BREAK
===============================
State is maintained on the server, so pressing BREAK doesn't change
anything.  If you press SHIFT+BREAK then all file handles are closed,
dir and lib is set to :0.$ and an indicator is sent back to the client
as of the OPT4 status of drive 0.  With a modified HostFS client this
may allow boot.  The changes I've made allow LOAD/RUN/EXEC functionality
at boot time; this is experimental.

Now, in theory, control-break should also send an update to the server,
but if the serial port is not connected or if the TubeHost software is
not running or baud rates are wrong then this causes a hang at power up.
To this end the client doesn't let the server know that control-break has
been sent.  This means TubeHost is subtly different in behaviour to disks.

SWEH EXTENSIONS
===============
In the source code you'll see references to SWEH_EXTENSION, SWEH_BREAK
and similar.  If you define SWEH_EXTENSION FALSE then you'll get the
behaviour as listed above.  SWEH_EXTENSION TRUE enables some change
to this...
* Remove the character you pressed (eg U-BREAK).
* Send Shift-Break to the server
* If SWEH_BREAK set, also send Control-Break (power on) to the server
* Add message " (No RTS)" if RTS isn't detected to *HELP and BREAK

Now the shift/ctrl-BREAK behaviour also depends on RTS.  If RTS is present
(and, on UPURS, if the top bit isn't floating) then we assume the serial
or UPURS cable is plugged in, and something is ready to accept data.
This isn't necessarily correct (eg Linux may have RTS set even if there's
no process) so the Beeb might hang on a hard boot.  In my mind this is
kinda similar to ADFS hanging if there's no floppy, so the UPURSFS ROM
image provided has these values set. 

Good luck!
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:21 pm

@Stephen

I take it all I should need to do is run the Perl TubeHost on the PC side and install the UPURSFS ROM image in the Beeb?

I understand you've written your TubeHost for Linux, I haven't taken a long look so I figure I'll ask if there's any particular region why it couldn't work on Windows with ActivePerl installed?

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:30 pm

In theory (but I can't test it - no windows machines!)) you should be able to use JGH's TubeHost.exe on Windows as a server with UPURSFS. UPURSFS should be compatible with it; although I don't know if TubeHost.exe is fast enough to transmit at the speeds necessary (I found my perl code can cause issues in high debug mode; annoying). Also, TubeHost.exe won't give the "floppy disk" feel; more of a "hard disk" feel.

My perl TubeHost running on Windows? Hmm... there's a few Unix-like things in there; in particular a "stty" command to set the serial port controls. It's possible Device::SerialPort works better on Windows than Linux so you might be able to use the routines I've already written for that. I'm pretty sure the code is 99% OK for ActivePerl; you just might need to kludge the I/O routine (sub raw_write; sub raw_read_char) and the setup functions. Everything else should be standard.
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 pm

sweh wrote:In theory (but I can't test it - no windows machines!)) you should be able to use JGH's TubeHost.exe on Windows as a server with UPURSFS.


That's why I'm asking. Despite creating an ini file with sensible settings as per the draft TubeHost documentation, I can't get TubeHost.exe to run. It launches and exits with no error, no message, no clue as to why. It's most annoying :?

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:39 pm

paulv wrote:It launches and exits with no error, no message, no clue as to why. It's most annoying


Right, I've got to the bottom of TubeHost.exe not running. I'm using an FTDI USB to RS-232 serial adapter. By default it starts naming ports as COM4 onwards.

TubeHost.exe is hardcoded to look at COM1. Thankfully COM1 on my machine is unused and the FTDI driver lets me change the COM port value so I could change it to COM1.

@JGH, if you read this, it may be worth allowing the ini file to specify the COM port to use as not everyone has COM1 or can change their COM port assignments.

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:06 pm

paulv wrote:TubeHost.exe is hardcoded to look at COM1.

You might try hex editing the file...

Code: Select all

00015a38  DD A4 6F 70 65 6E 0D 66   ..open.f
00015a40  22 01 E7 6F 73 25 3D 33   "..os%=3
00015a48  32 3A 73 65 72 69 6E 25   2:serin%
00015a50  3D AD 28 22 43 4F 4D 31   =.("COM1
00015a58  3A 20 62 61 75 64 3D 22   : baud="
00015a60  2B C3 73 70 65 65 64 25   +.speed%
00015a68  2B 22 20 70 61 72 69 74   +" parit


Now you've got it working, did it talk to UPURSFS cleanly? *fingers crossed*
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:40 pm

sweh wrote:Now you've got it working, did it talk to UPURSFS cleanly? *fingers crossed*


I've not tried yet. I had a pretty crappy nights sleep last night and am tired and irritable (but strangely not sleepy :? ) so I figured that I'd wait until I'm a little fresher. To that end, I should be testing it at some point tomorrow now :D

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:38 pm

Ok, here's my preliminary testing with UPURSFS on my Beeb and JGH's TubeHost.exe running on my Windows netbook (Win7 Starter).

Running Stephen's UPURSFS EPROM :D

UPURSHOSTFS.jpg
Boot banner
(139.98 KiB) Downloaded 898 times


Writing and saving a simple file.

Save.jpg
Saving a program
(165.84 KiB) Downloaded 898 times


Checking it's been saved...

DIRlisting.jpg
Directory listing
(167.25 KiB) Downloaded 898 times


Loading the program back into RAM

Load.jpg
Loading a file
(158.11 KiB) Downloaded 898 times


I also tried *TYPE which seemed just fine. It's quite a speedy file system too :D

Nice work Stephen =D> =D> =D>

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:52 pm

OMGWTFBBQ! It worked! Woohoo! Thanks :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:59 pm

Nice work Stephen =D>

I will give it a whirl in due course, I've been a bit busy with 'other things' of late and in any case, I didn't want to dive in first coz that looks a bit incestuous :wink:

Anyway, well done for persevering and suceeding :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:23 pm

Thanks. For my second Beeb I've removed DFS and made UPURSFS the only filesystem. It's shown a few limitations (eg no *TYPE command!) so I'll probably extend the "utils" side of the ROM to do some standard DFS type commands as well. But so far it's looking good, which is a testament to JGH's design.
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby sweh » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:31 am

sweh wrote:OK, so here it is... The bastard child of JGH's HostFS and Martin's UPURS.... UPURSFS.

Minor update to 0.04

Code: Select all

0.04  2013/06/03
  At boot time, if no RTS is present then print a message but do not select
  us; that allows another filesystem to take over.  In my case I have
  TurboMMC and UPURSFS both plugged in; if the UPURS cable is in and the
  HostFS active then UPURSFS is selected.  If MMC is plugged in then
  the DFS is selected.  Magic!   (SWEH_EXTENSION option)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby danielj » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:11 pm

This seemed like the most appropriate place to say:

Martin, awesome stuff. Just built UPURS cable for my M128 in order to get some Torch CPN images across. Worked like a charm. Cooking on Z80 gas.

Just to note though, there seems to be a missing carriage return at the end of the help message of UPURS 5.0? (I only noticed this as I have it in the lowest slot so it pops its message out last)...

Paul, do you want some OSX instructions for the manual?

d.

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:15 pm

danielj wrote:Paul, do you want some OSX instructions for the manual?


That would be cool :D

Thanks

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:56 pm

Daniel wrote:Martin, awesome stuff. Just built UPURS cable for my M128 in order to get some Torch CPN images across. Worked like a charm.
Why thank-you Daniel, very kind of you to take the trouble to say so 8)
(If you keep playing with it on all your kit, you'll find you can fall in love with floppies all over again :wink:)

...and wrote:Just to note though, there seems to be a missing carriage return at the end of the help message of UPURS 5.0?
That's what I thought for months and drove myself crazy shouting at the OS for ignoring my attempts to add in a <cr> or even a <lf> :evil:
Then one day it dawned on stupid me that it isn't the OS that prints the rom title (or indeed any of the *HELP stuff), it's my very own code in the UPURS rom #-o. Yes, I wrote all the UPURS rom code but re-used the generic sideways rom framework stuff from when I wrote RAMagic! and didn't realise I'd propagated an error from there :roll:. In summary, the code needs a tiny tweak when I release the next version of the UPURS rom :-

Thanks for the offer of the OSX guidance too, and thanks as ever to Paul for taking it on board :D


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