Wires? Pah.....

discuss PC<>Acorn file transfer issues & the use of FDC, XFER, Omniflop/disk etc.
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CMcDougall
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby CMcDougall » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:46 pm

Thanks Martin =D> =D> :D :mrgreen:
How do you convert say CEgg.uef to CEgg.gz quickly? I have to use DOS window to do it in drive C:Root as it won't do it in windows for some reason (gee I hate MSoft! :evil: ). Then I unzip again. Or has someone already done this already with everything on the STH tape colection? If so could someone PM me the linky to them? both the normal UEFs and then the unzipped .gz (as I only have about 40tapes in my PC tape folder)
Cheers Col. :wink:
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Don't know if this helps when using a DOS window but under Windows proper, I download a .zip proggy and using WinZip, out comes a .uef file (albeit one that is actually still gzipped.) Then, I do a rename by just adding a .gz extension to give <file>.uef.gz, run it through WinZip again and another .uef spits out but this time it is a true UEF that can be used with UPCFS.

Any help?

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:20 pm

I've got a 23Mb archive of most STH BBC games pre done. When I get in, I'll post a link...

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:50 pm

Ok, here we go... At the risk of my bandwidth usage going mental here's a link to (almost) all of the BBC Micro UEF's on the STH archive but they've already been prepared for use with UPCFS.

Disclaimers....

1. I created this archive with one thing in mind. Testing. To that end, it's rough and ready. It was never meant for public distribution like the original archives are.
2. I created the file with a set of batch files, spreadsheets and UltraEdit together with the odd bit of manual intervention so some UEFs (usually from multi-UEF archives) are missing when compared to the STH archive.
3. It's completely unsorted, has no directory structure and lacks any of those lovely text files that are in the originals from STH.
4. If the bandwidth goes crazy, I may have to remove the file without notice. Be gentle...

So without further ado...

UPCFS ready UEF archive of BBC Micro games from Stairway to Hell

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby CMcDougall » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:57 pm

Thanks again Martin & Paul =D>

I noticed I can use the 7z unzip proggy to unzip the .uef's again quick with a right click on all selected :)
and then after splitting the 16k chunks with the HexEditor proggy I can use the proggy
http://www.bulkrenameutility.co.uk/Download.php
to change the 0-7.file to 0-7.rom quickly too! :D

So, Twin Kingdom Valley works, but Players Tomcat did not. But, the version I seem to have was done by Mike Cook'2002, and it never loader into any emulator anyways, as 'Data?/block' errs. But Jon's TapeToDisc proggy changed it to disc :shock:

To save bandwitch Paul, you can bring it down now, or just upload to another site for free, I've got hundreds

cheers, Col :wink:

EDIT: Revs does not work, as Revs2 file is knackered. Use revs4tracks it works. JoeBlade1 does not work, but JoeBlade2 does.
StarDrifter does not work, as last big file is also knackered.
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:28 pm

Just to let everyone know that FTDI have released a new set of BETA drivers for the FTDI chipset based USB to RS232 cables adapters. I've been testing the new drivers for the last couple of days and they seem to be working just fine.

For Windows, as usual, if you already have a previous version of the drivers installed then depending on your version of Windows you will need to carry out the un-installation procedure as documented in the UPURS manual before you upgrade. Doing the full uninstall stops the system from being confused about which driver to use as Windows can keep old versions hanging around and the poor thing gets confused. :roll:

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby CMcDougall » Sat May 05, 2012 1:28 pm

Ghouls by Program Power no worky, as says in yellow "off the line...." and presses break.
Haunted Abbey no work.
The Way of Exploding Fist original does not work (on the net), as the CSW and HQuef don't work to start with. So will rip that properly next week. 8)
and Wizzy's Mansion, well.......LOL
Attachments
wizzysMansionUPCFS.JPG
NSFW!
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby PitfallJones » Sat May 05, 2012 2:04 pm

You've been told! :-)

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Sat May 05, 2012 2:21 pm

HAAHAA imagine seeing that aged 13 with your mum watching what you were doing while putting your washing away LOL thats funny as hell
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Mon May 07, 2012 2:31 am

In my semi-regular check on FTDI driver versions, they've finally released fully WHQL approved version of the RS-232 to USB drivers that contain the relevant fixes to support UPURS and UPCFS.

No more using beta versions of the drivers! Yay =D> =D> :D \:D/ \:D/

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Mon May 07, 2012 6:51 pm

On the BeebSID thread, Arcadian wrote:
On the BeebSID thread, PitfallJones wrote:Could this be the forums largest thread at 23,000 views?

Quite possibly!

I've just checked the old "commercial game authors" thread (which discussed NightShade's copy protection) and it's already surpassed that by a good few hundred hits!


No, I believe it's this thread :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Mon May 07, 2012 8:39 pm

MartinB wrote:No, I believe it's this thread :D


LOL we should have a like button on here
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:10 pm

Back here here in this very long post MartinB demonstrated the pico 'pogo' plug working with the prototype serial cable on the user port.

All working in the video demo and just mentions that the software needs to be sorted.

The software for serial transfer has been sorted by the looks of it but all the testing was done with cables, and no mention of the 'pogo' in Paulv's doc write up or subsequent posts in this thread.

So my question is if I buy/make up one of these serial cables and hook up a bluetooth adapter is it going to work with the latest software? Or did that die a silent death?

Thanks.

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:30 pm

Hi,

The cable implements an RS-232 interface so there's no reason why an RS-232 to Bluetooth cable wouldn't work. One of the main reasons it isn't mentioned is that the project morphed into a cheap way to do data transfers and the Bluetooth stuff turned UPURS into quite an expensive project.

MartinB will have the definitive word on this but AFAIK you'll probably not get an answer from him until next week ATM.

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Elminster » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:56 pm

Okay thanks, that sounds quite promising.

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:07 pm

Elminster wrote:Back here here in this very long post MartinB demonstrated the pico 'pogo' plug working with the prototype serial cable on the user port.
Lol - 'very long posts' are my calling card. I've tried being brief but can never manage it :wink:

In truth, I haven't actually tried the 'pogo' recently but I can certainly do so. The Pico-Plug is a bit of a strange beast really and not as configurable as more expensive examples but as you saw, I did have it working fine in one direction at least. The UPURS interface has matured significantly since it's inception and as Paul says, it does now implement industry standard RS232 (acknowledging of course that there is no real 'standard' as such :roll:) and I've yet to find a device that can't be communicated with. The Beeb end realistically forces a simplex-only connection without dropping the speed to someting like the standard serial port but other than that, provided a given device truly communicates via CTS/RTS handshaking then all should be well. I'd really like to try both an expensive wireless adaptor (~£50) and some of these eBay chinese-sourced RS232 Bluetooth devices (e.g. a pair for less than a fiver) but I just haven't had the time. All current effort is focussed on getting plug'n'play UPURS onto the good 'ol Elk :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Elminster » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:59 pm

I had also been think along the lines of a possible wifi solution as well but had come up with another way. Basically buying Sprow's econet to Ethernet board, hooking the rj45 into a spare wifi router running in wifi extender mode. I seem to have collected quite a few wifi routers and access point over the years. Think I have 5 kicking around.

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:14 pm

The ethernet board (Master series only btw) is of course in a totally different league to UPURS. The latter is simply intended to allow fast and efficient bi-directional transfer of disc and rom images between a PC and a floppy-based Beeb. More recently, with the advent of UPCFS, it also allows games to run directly from PC :D

Thus, the concept of adding an RS232 Bluetooth device to UPURS is simply to make the above functionality wireless. UPURS makes no pretence to be a filing system and doesn't support realtime file handling in the way that (I assume) the ethernet board would.

I do really like the idea of using the UPURS suite together with a simple pocket PC like my HP device seen in the vids, or even indeed a suitably equipped mobile phone. It gives a neat wireless mass-storage solution for the Beeb so I will be revisting suitable RS232 Bluetooth devices once the Elk UPURS excitement is over :D

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby bogax » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:46 am

crap.

I was going to leave this alone but curiosity has gotten
the better of me.

At 115200 a bit time is 8.68 so with a cycle time of .5,
16 cycles is -.68, 17 cycles is -.18 and 18 cycles is +.32

So here's how I see the jitter

Code: Select all

bit 1  17 -.18   18 +.32   
bit 2  18 +.14   16 -.36
bit 3  17 -.04   18 -.04
bit 4  17 -.22   18 +.28
bit 5  18 +.1    16 -.4
bit 6  17 -.08   18 -.08
bit 7  18 +.24   18 +.24


17/18 should have less jitter
16/18 looks better with 2*16 and 5*18

Also, don't you want to sample at 1.5 bit times
or 26 cycles (8.68 * 1.5 = 13.02)
but you're sampling at 22-26 (or is that
because the 6522 some times pushes it out to 27 or 28?)


MartinB wrote:
bogax wrote:I assumed something like that (and I think you discussed it earlier in this thread)
Apologies - I knew I meant to mention it but couldn't remember if I had. This particular quirk threw me for ages and I only eventually figured it out when I saw it on the scope #-o
and wrote:By that reckoning you lose ~.4 us every 2 bits, cumulatively almost as much as the fixed 17 cycles over 7 bits.
It would seem varying between 17 and 18 would get you closer to what you want.
The pads apply pre-b1 to pre-b7 and for a 16/18 cycle jitter (using four short & three long) we net +0.76us, for a fixed 17 we net +1.26us and for a 17/18 jitter we net +1.32us. Thus, the 16/18 jitter I'm using is the closest.

I did spend hours on a scope tuning this and I also ran prolonged transfer tests using a 'sliding window' across the range of theoretical values to identify where bit errors appear and disappear. The 16/18 jitter is both the theoretical 'best fit' but also the timing scheme that proved to be error-free across multiple permutations of PC & Acorn hardware.

Apologies if it sounds like I'm being defensive for the sake of it, I'm honestly not and I do genuinely welcome your interest and second pair of eyes 8)

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby BigEd » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:20 am

Don't forget that in cycles which access the peripherals the clock is slowed...

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby bogax » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:34 pm

BigEd wrote:Don't forget that in cycles which access the peripherals the clock is slowed...


Yes, that's mainly why I was going to leave it alone.

And that or something similar probably accounts for
some of what I don't understand.

I didn't think MartinB needed to explain the intricacies
of Beeb timing to me.

May be it's a failure of imagination on my part,
but I can't see how varying sampling times by 2 cycles
could work better than varying by 1 cycle.

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:02 pm

bogax wrote:crap.
I was going to leave this alone but curiosity has gotten
the better of me.
Hello again bogax :wink:

I'm not sure where to go with this :-k. Remember that I developed this code using theoretical calculations but then tuned it extensively on real hardware. I don't disagree with any of your observations but have to just keep reiterating that the faultless transfer of now probably gigs of data by the sum of all the users tells me that the algorithm is a good one, certainly as applied to the Acorn 6502 platforms. (Did you see I've successfully trialled it on the Elk now?) Indeed, on the odd occasion where I've released an update and inadvertantly changed the timing, it's never long before a tester or user pops up and reports a snag.

There has been another iteration of UPURS since we last chatted (V5 of the rom, V4 of core utils) to allow compatibility with legacy com port hardware in addition to USB RS232 adaptors. The core routines have consequently changed a little and I /might/ have tweaked the timings again so have a look at the attached Tx and Rx code - just use Notepad or similar because I'm crap at formatting text outside of the tools I use :roll:
UPURS Tx & Rx code.zip
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Are you implementing a similar system on a different platform? (Surely you don't just lose sleep over it coz it niggles you? :wink:)

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Well its been a while since i had my bbc out to play and ive had to recap on a lot of how to's and somehow my ifel sideways ram got a bit messed up and had to blank its memory. So now im trying to get the upurs suite back onto it, i've managed to get upurs v4.1 onto it from the v5 rom but theres no cfs on it? Anyone got any ideas please?
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:54 pm

The disc utils don't support UPCFS, only the ROM image and that should be in this zip file

From there, you can transfer the ROM image directly into a spare ROM slot on your IFEL card using UPURS 4.1 and from there you should have UPURS 5 on the IFEL card again.

HTH

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:39 pm

Whats the command to get this into sideways ram paul? When i try the ram bank is always empty afterwards. *srload doesnt work on a beeb
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:44 pm

Use *UPLOAD R<id> to upload the rom image directly from the PC into the SRAM slot of your choice :D

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:48 pm

Thanks paul, yes this is the command that doesnt seem to work, i did wonder if there was another one. If i do the *RLOAD UPURS R15 from the floppy it works fine but only version 4.1R as you say. Ive had cfs running on my machine before so i know it works, very annoying this when you forget stuff :(
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby paulv » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:59 pm

That's odd. Where did you get RLOAD from? It's not part of the UPURS suite. Also I didn't think slot 15 was available for upload on the Master. It certainly isn't on my machine. I use slots 7 and 8 IIRC.

Paul

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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby Slo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:06 pm

*RLOAD is on the cd that comes with IFEL's products, as far as i know it does the same as on a bbc b as *SRLOAD on the master. It works fine too. I have 8 banks available on my sideways ram, 2,3,6,7,10,11,14 and 15
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Re: Wires? Pah.....

Postby MartinB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:28 pm

Hi - I've let Paul go for a tea break :D
Slo wrote:So now im trying to get the upurs suite back onto it, i've managed to get upurs v4.1 onto it from the v5 rom but theres no cfs on it? Anyone got any ideas please?
As Paul says, UPCFS is a version 5 feature only, it's not part of the v4 suite.

If I've understood correctly, you're saying you can load the UPURS v4.1 rom image but you can't load the v5.0 image? If so, that doesn't make any sense other than the v5 image you're using is broken. They're both just standard 16k sideways rom formats so if one loads, your hardware and procedures are ok and in which case a later version must also load unless it's a corrupt image :-k


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