Mega Games Cartridge for the Electron MGC

reminisce about bbc micro & electron games like chuckie egg, repton, elite & exile

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richardtoohey
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby richardtoohey » Tue May 27, 2014 10:08 am

Felix and the Evil Weevils - another one just over 16K:

Code: Select all

FELIX   0D 0D2D 00000E00 00008023
WEEVIL0 0D 0D10 00001900 00008023
WEEVIL1 26 2686 00003400 00003400
Total &40C3 bytes.

FELIX is the logo & joystick set-up, WEEVIL0 is BASIC (sets up characters with VDU 23, ENVELOPEs, loads WEEVIL1, shows instructions, and then executes the game code in WEEVIL1.)

I just need to give this game a quick test :wink: :roll:

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby 1024MAK » Tue May 27, 2014 10:23 am

Although it does not completely get around the copyright issue, the carts can be sold without any games on (or with only games that have clearly been listed as open source / permission granted status).

The memory chip that Dave H. :D is using can be reprogrammed without removing it from the cart by an Elk or Master. So the user can then decide what programs to store on it.

Yes, copying items of copyrighted software to it is still breaking the (civil) copyright law. But no money is now involved in the copyright equation.

Changing the subject to a more positive note...

The 16k limit can be broken :D. On the ZX Spectrum, a clever guy has written a program that can convert 48k games to run from "ROM" cartridges that have an address space of only 16k. I should point out that the carts are his clever design and have a 128k byte Flash ROM chip and bank switching circuits so the Z80 CPU can access nearly all of the 128k of memory. Also the game is copied from the ROM to the normal RAM before it is run. And keep in mind when a ROM cart is used on a Spectrum, it pages out the Spectrum OS/BASIC ROM.

I'm sure a clever 6502 programmer could soon crack this problem :wink:

Mark
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby jbnbeeb » Tue May 27, 2014 10:36 am

I have an Elk with Plus 1.. would be happy to test cartridges or files before cartridges are put together.

They'd have to be sent by post. Would be happy to share costs on that and also costs of cartridge/s to test.

What needs to be tested (ie just regular ssds or uefs etc?) and how?
I'm going to ..
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue May 27, 2014 8:20 pm

Just an idle thought. Each cartridge has access to 2 x 16K banks. This could be employed first to load a 'loader' that then loads the game. To keep the 64 game tally we'll need 2 of the ROMs, however, it would totally remove the the lack of storage problem and allow, I should think, any game to be loaded.

Is this a plan?

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby richardtoohey » Tue May 27, 2014 9:29 pm

So, if we go back to Felix and the Evil Weevils (as an example of an over 16K game)

Code: Select all

FELIX   0D 0D2D 00000E00 00008023
WEEVIL0 0D 0D10 00001900 00008023
WEEVIL1 26 2686 00003400 00003400
So we could put !BOOT (new), FELIX, and WEEVIL0 in the first bank (is it 0-based or 1-based?), then WEEVIL1 in the second bank?

Possibly having to modify WEEVIL0 to switch banks to load WEEVIL1? Is that what you mean? I might have completely the wrong end of the stick.

I'll carry on with the other Micro Power games to get the rest of the sizes - think we need more data to see the <16K : >16K ratio.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed May 28, 2014 7:07 am

The !BOOT loader will need to load the BOOT code which will then do one of two things:
1) Load the Big game that's taking up space across 2 x 16K ROM banks.
or
2) Give you the option to load the 1st or 2nd - for games that can fit into a 16K bank.

The OS will load the first !BOOT it finds - counting down from the top. So you can't have 2 games with a !BOOT loader. So, we'd lose a 16K bank for games that only use one bank. The BOOT loader that Knows there's 2 games allows us to maximise the available ROM space.

Hope all that makes sense?

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby richardtoohey » Wed May 28, 2014 8:08 am

Not really, no ... :oops:

I came at this from the wrong angle, so I'm trying to ditch what I thought was going on and replace it with what you are telling me, but I'm not quite there yet!

So - there's only one !BOOT, and it loads the menu program, and the menu program has the smarts to know if games are one bank or two, and takes care of the rest (swapping in appropriate bank(s) and loading the game)?

Is that a bit closer?

Thanks.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby 1024MAK » Wed May 28, 2014 10:58 am

Well, this is how I would do it if I was attempting this:
Image
The large red outlined rectangle represents the memory of the whole cartridge. In this case, two large capacity Flash ROM chips. One known as "A" and the other known as "B".
As you may know, the Elk or Master can select one of two 16k ROMs in a single cart.
So the higher numbered ROM (from the Elk or Masters perspective) is Flash ROM "A" and the lower numbered ROM is Flash ROM "B"(as the OS boots from the higher numbered ROM).

The !BOOT loader will be in the first 16k "bank" of the "A" Flash ROM (here coloured green and marked 00/A ). Then this loads a menu program located in the same area of the Flash ROM.
The menu program then loads a small copy routine into RAM and selects (using some clever circuitry) the required image in the correct Flash bank (shown here in pink and numbered 0B/A and 0B/B). It then either copies the image into RAM, or loads it as a ROM filing system image :-)

Well, it works in my mind :wink:
Note that the last byte in all 16k banks is not usable, as the "clever circuitry" needs to use this memory location to select the bank required in the Flash ROM (using a 8 bit hardware register).

Now, I wonder how Dave H.'s design works :-k

Mark
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby aerworuld » Wed May 28, 2014 1:02 pm

jbnbeeb wrote:I have an Elk with Plus 1.. would be happy to test cartridges or files before cartridges are put together.

They'd have to be sent by post. Would be happy to share costs on that and also costs of cartridge/s to test.

What needs to be tested (ie just regular ssds or uefs etc?) and how?



Im with you on this one; im feeling a bit confused :/

Sorry if ive missed the point but could someone explain what the elk testers need to do?

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby paulb » Wed May 28, 2014 4:53 pm

1024MAK wrote:The menu program then loads a small copy routine into RAM and selects (using some clever circuitry) the required image in the correct Flash bank (shown here in pink and numbered 0B/A and 0B/B). It then either copies the image into RAM, or loads it as a ROM filing system image :-)


I don't think davidb has responded to this thread yet, but his Jungle Journey ROM cartridge has to handle a 32K game, and so it might be worth looking at what he did.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed May 28, 2014 5:45 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now, I wonder how Dave H.'s design works :-k

Mark

Ah! Well, I was trying to keep the cost down and the software down! In fact my design would (have?) use 'switches' to select the games and various banks. E.g. you'd have a printed list - nice piece of card, laminated - from which you'd select the game you wanted. Then Shift-Break and off you go. All that was assuming the games would fit into 16K.

Now it seems that may be out of the running . . . Due to some (a lot?) of the games needing more. So, an internal addressable latch is possible - maybe the same overall price - However, it will need software support! And, the software will need to 'know' what size each of the games are. This is because there was talk of people being able to chose from a list of games for their particular cartridge. The best way here, I think is for a general purpose menu program (as Mark suggested) that reads the header of each game, which gives title and length, to construct the menu.

I did want to avoid the reliance on software support, however, is there anyone up for the job? If not then it's back to the original idea and a limit on which games can be used.

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby richardtoohey » Wed May 28, 2014 7:43 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:All that was assuming the games would fit into 16K.

Now it seems that may be out of the running . . . Due to some (a lot?) of the games needing more.
This is the bit I'm working on - finding what ratio of <16K : >16K games.

I've started with Micro Power - was hoping someone would do the same with e.g. Acornsoft/Superior/whoever.

I've downloaded the tape images, then in Elkulator I do

Code: Select all

*TAPE
*OPT 1,2
*.
I note down all the files & sizes, add them up, and that let's us know if the game will fit in 16K or not.

We might find there are enough 16K games to make a simple approach work.

But right now, Captain Dave needs more data. :lol:

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby davidb » Fri May 30, 2014 10:13 am

daveejhitchins wrote:No pictures, it's still in the idea stage at the moment. I have the circuit sorted, on paper, at least. Yes, It's a Big ROM - Quarndon have them here - Limited number! I'll have to see if I can find more. It'll need programming externally - I'll add a connector to program in-situ on the board. To get the 128 games we'll need 2 of these. So I might make provision, at least.

I'm a bit late to this thread but it's interesting to see that a number of us have, apparently independently, chosen to use similar ROM-a-like components. :D

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby JoolsH » Fri May 30, 2014 11:34 am

If you're willing to take a non-purist approach, a lot of games have unnecessary things in the loader that can be removed. e.g. the loader for Ghouls on the Electron has a lot of data to draw the nice loading screen (which you're not going to be staring at for long if you're loading from cartridge anyway). I remember making a fast-loading version of this back in the day by getting rid of that.

Maybe we could do a little investigation into the Electron's best games, to see if it's plausible to make 16k versions of them... particularly if they're only just over 16k to start with.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby JoolsH » Fri May 30, 2014 12:07 pm

...for example, here's a quick hack on the version of Felix Meets the Evil Weevils mentioned above, that will trim it to 16k:

LOAD"FELIX"
DELETE 3600,3700
DELETE 3800,3800
DELETE 4470,4470
DELETE 7500,8000
SAVE"FELIX"

It's a bit of a dirty hatchet job, but someone willing to take a bit of time could make it a bit nicer...

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby jms2 » Fri May 30, 2014 3:09 pm

Can I suggest a coarse-filtering method which might save a bit of time?

If a game has a full size mode 2 or mode 1 screen, it is probably <16k.

Games with mode 4 or 5 screens, and games with artificially-reduced mode 1/2 screens, will probably be >16k, unless they are quite simple.

Unfortunately this means that most of the better games will be excluded.

Some examples...

Starship Command = Mode 4 = definitely >16k (its a 32k rom cart for the elk)
Citadel = reduced mode 2 = I haven't checked but very likely to be >16k.
Hopper & Snapper = mode 2 = <16k

Another approach would be to look at SSD sizes. This will obviously over-estimate the total size due to loading screens etc, but if you find SSDs which are close to 16k those games will probably be OK.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat May 31, 2014 8:15 am

Good to still see some constructive work here . . . I was hoping to see someone pop-up with the 'loader' task . . . Which would mean we could do the 'dual' ROM version and not worry about the 16K limitation . . . ???

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby leenew » Sat May 31, 2014 8:25 am

My two-penneth... :D
I think Dave is right to pursue the dual ROM version.
We want the GOOD games not the small games surely!
Lee.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat May 31, 2014 8:30 am

Some good news . . . I've just located a supply (low cost, of course) of the 120ns version of the ROM. Not counting Chickens yet, though!

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby richardtoohey » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:43 pm

I'm still going to work my way through Micro Power titles - then I'll start looking at some of the other software houses.

My plan is still to come up with a list of <16K >16K titles, and then you'd at least have some sort of idea - are 80% of the titles over 16K? 10%? 50%? Are any "key" titles going to be a problem?

That information might help you decide what next - e.g. we can hack at the titles (as suggested above) - to get more of them under 16K by ditching the loaders and cutting out anything not required. But then a bit less of a BITD feel to the games - not exactly the way they were.

Just arrived in the UK (yesterday) so a bit too jet-lagged to do much in the next day or two - but want to get back to this.

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby sydney » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:24 pm

Looks like I might have a bit of spare time tonight so I'll have a bash at this. Does anyone mind if I go through the Superior Software catalogue?
Just to be sure, what do we actually want here?
Just a list of games and the sizes or would you like me to use the *Makerom command to see if I can get a few games rommed(is that a word?)?
I've got 2 of Dave's excellent ABR's and a master so that gives me 8 sideways ram slots - should be enough, right? :lol:

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:56 am

Just a quick update on this topic . . .

I hope to be ordering the EEPROMs within the next two weeks. Pretty much decided how the hardware will be constructed, but still need to chose the paging address!

In terms of how the games are organised in memory . . . I thought, this morning when contemplating wether to get out of bed, that the best, most efficient, way to do this will be to treat the memory as a single contiguous block, instead of 16K pages. This way all the memory will be used without any small spaces being wasted.

I'll try and have something ready, hardware wise, for our Northern get-together.

Dave H :D
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby CMcDougall » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:44 pm

=D> =D> =D>

looks like we will be playing lots of games on the Saturday!

.......that's if we ain't stuck to the lavvy pan after the Friday curry :-& :lol:
ImageImageImage

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:26 pm

Hardware sorted, I think!

Explanation:
Because I'm not sure just how games are going to be loaded e.g. (preferred, If possible) through the ROM filing system (RFS) or through a 'loader' (maybe the only way!), I've tried to build-in versatility - as follows:

RFS: If the game only needs a 16K bank then the Page Mode can be selected to show just one 16K bank. If two 16K banks were shown the page you wanted may be in the least significant bank and the RFS will go-with the first one it sees e.g the higher bank. So, you'd select Page Mode to show just one 16K bank. However, if the game uses two 16K banks Page Mode would be selected for that.

For games that may (?) need a 'loader' other than RFS then Page mode would be selected to show just one 16K bank and the Page Latch addressed as needed. e.g. the ROM memory would be contiguous.

There's also a Latch for preventing Writes to the ROM (write inhibit is default) This is to prevent any spurious writes to the ROMs (see MartinB's post: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom? here for an explanation. The image below is low quality. I've added a pdf so it can be printed out and checked <- Please [-o<
BlockDiagram.jpg
Next step is to get the proper schematic and then the PCB sorted.
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:49 pm

Update:

Schematic and a description of the Memory organisation.
Schematic1.JPG


MGC.zip
(106.35 KiB) Downloaded 50 times


Dave H :D

p.s. Feedback ? - And the ROM is AM29F032B-90I
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby CMcDougall » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:23 pm

^good work Dave H :D =D> =D> =D>
(can't give feedback, but looks pretty! 8) )
me wrote:don't know where ChEgg, Munchyman & ?? is on other cart, must of ran out of disc space BITD, but will image them next week....

a bit longer than a week :oops:
but used EUP to get them off, nice and easy/quick! \:D/
elkRomCart2.png
cart2

seems I made them 11/10/95 :shock:
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:51 pm

@ Dave H :D

Only thing that I have spotted so far...

On the schematic, the cart edge-connector shows QA connected, but I can find no further reference to it anywhere on the schematic.

Mark
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:00 pm

1024MAK wrote:@ Dave H :D

Only thing that I have spotted so far...

On the schematic, the cart edge-connector shows QA connected, but I can find no further reference to it anywhere on the schematic.

Mark
Thanks, Mark. I spotted it about 3pm. At the same time I noticed that I'd missed another signal. Those two resulted in a change of GAL for IC2. From a 16L8 to another 22V10. I'll add it tomorrow and continue with the board tracking - about 80% done :D

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby daveejhitchins » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:31 pm

PCB:
MGC NoneComponentSide.JPG
MGC ComponentSide.JPG
MGC.JPG


Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: New Project, Super Games Cartridge

Postby 1024MAK » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:24 pm

Looking good :D

Mark
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